Very risky at this point. If he drops Rashford for example, while also dropping Maguire and Sancho, that's too many english players dropped. Could easily lose the dressing room.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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'Manchester United had never lost at the Tottenham Hotspur stadium, until Erik Ten Hag.'
Come on, Redcafe should be above shite like this. Look at the guy's fecking page - calling ten Hag a psychopath and the rest? He's unhinged.
This. You are doomed if you do not build from the back. Solid keeper and back four protected by two solid CMs. It is not very complicted.
I didn’t look at his page. I’m not sure why anyone would see such a list and feel any need to validate it depending upon who posted it. It’s a damning list, regardless of whether one or two are a reach.
If you have one, that's one too many. But if you have 4-5 players who know the manager wants them out of the door and the club are not willing to take a loss on them, it's a nightmare. Then you have players who do not put in the hard work, Rashford probably the only one who gets picked regardless, but there are plenty of others.
I'm not saying ETH is infallible, of course not. And he's made mistakes in team selection and, with the some benefit of hindsight, in the transfer market. I think it's too early to rate Mount (I was bemused at the time, but he looks a player, he just doesn't look like a player suitable for midfield containing both Bruno and Casemiro). But there are question marks over both the Eriksen and Casemiro transfers, as they both look on the downward slope and we need energy in that midfield.
Mourinho said when he was manager that it would be easier to start afresh with only new players, which is unrealistic, but true. I think that's how deep the malaise runs. You have to create some sort of firewall between the anti-meritocracy infestation and the new elements coming in. That's why I would have preferred to see 12-14 players binned in the summer and relying more on youth for squad depth with a slow build, with less onus on results immediately (as I probably said numerous times on here).
At United , dropping players ends up as a circus story in the media. Sure look at the way some hysterical people go on about Sancho , you’d swear ETH was making him wear girls clothes and eat dog food the way some bang in about it. It’s a nothing story and at any other club it wouldn’t be a thing, but at United it’s a serious topic of debate for some stupid reason.
When managers start dropping multiple players for attitude problems, it really is hard to see how they get back from it when they can’t offload them. It’s an even bigger problem when injuries, players you dont want to keep (and you’ve made it clear they aren’t part of your plans) , sexual accusations affecting some players and soft minded Sanchos only make that harder to navigate.
I really don’t think people appreciate how much sh*t outside or just coaching the team ETH is having to put up with. Maybe if all he had to do was coach the team, which is his main skill, he’d be able to do a better job. Wouldn’t be surprised if he’s fixing Broken toilets in old Trafford at this stage.
Organisation who has a bad culture always looking at hiring a new manger to impose change. The current employees are unhappy with the new managee and sabotage the manager e.g. missing revenue, shipment and etc. As performance get worst over a period of time, the management will start to think if the problem lies in the manager. Ultimately, the manager gets the sack and employee get new manager and result get better in short term but bad culture still remains. I have seem such things happening in the corporate world and it is nothing new. If Erik has taken his time in coaxing existing players while putting in a plan slowly to replace them, I think he wouldn't start of this season so badly. Current outcase feels disrespected so even when they have a chance to play, they put in half hearted effort. Does the board has patience? Can Erik finds ways to engage the current team? Let's see.
He should be using these defeats to show to every member of the team that no one is indispensable, such as benching Rashy and then Bruno. Heck, I'd be more happy seeing a midfield of Amrabat and the kids for a couple of games just to get the message across, and chances are we might even get better performances.
He must start selecting players on attitude and endeavour rather than reputation. If he sticks with the reputation root, they’ll get him sacked. Newcastle tonight looked a worlds apart from the dross we continue to serve up week in week out. They have tinges of quality with lashings of good attitude and an all round willingness to do the dirty work at all costs. Come on Erik.
Assuming he's got captain Bruno on side and the Ajax contigent, he should be getting them to lay into those not playing upto standard/following instructions. Takes the heat off ETH without the fragile babies blaming their boss.
I remember Jose was doing that with Fellaini and McTom near the end of his reign. Pogba just waited for him to be sacked and then played amazing for a few weeks and just was injured or not arsed for the remainder of his United career.
But at the time, Jose got a load of grief for not getting the best out of Pogba.
You can’t change a culture in 15 months if you are still stuck with a bunch of players you don’t want and you have to play them cause of injuries and unavailable players.
I’ve got the issue on an Under 13s team I manage. We want to drop a stroppy player who has loads of talent but a bad attitude. He can win games on his own but he’s not a team player and literally stops playing in some games.
His team mates put up with his antics cause they feel more confident with him in the team. Our chances are better if he starts but we want to drop him to teach him some humility.
But we don’t have many subs and don’t have any comparable replacements. ETH dropping Bruno or Rash is not replacing them with better or equal players. United over rely on these players , so when we are not playing league cup games we will really struggle to make up for the quality they can bring.
It’s a nice idea and I agree with your sentiments in theory but in practise they don’t really work unless you have a strong squad like pep or a really strong club culture around the manager (like Klopp and pep). United has neither, we just have pot noodle sponcors in Asia to appease.
Ignoring the large number of injuries currently, if you look at the squad generally it’s a bit bloated.
Removing Sancho, Maguire, McTom and Donny in January would be a step towards having a better mood in the camp.
Keeping players around that are not wanted by the manager is only ever going to negatively affect the dressing room.
Removing Sancho, Maguire, McTom and Donny in January would be a step towards having a better mood in the camp.
Keeping players around that are not wanted by the manager is only ever going to negatively affect the dressing room.
These 4 need to be moved on if they are not in plan. We will only need to replace Maguire as we dont have cover at CB. Donny is irrelevant and Mctom is almost in a way replaced by Mainoo and Hannibal already
Sancho has barely contributed anything since his move so no need to worry about his replacement as well.
I think we just need to ride this out to be honest.
I think theres dozens of problems effecting pretty much every player in one way or another, a lot of outside non football related stuff, general malaise and a bad culture basically. You could potentially go out and bring in Harry Redknapp who gets a couple of results and brings some optimism but its a very short term fix that doesn't resolve any of the issues.
Keep churning players. If they wont work for Ten Hag then get rid of them, they dont get to pick and choose who they'll work for. I'd be in zero tolerance territory with them and that would be irrespective of the managers position.
I think theres dozens of problems effecting pretty much every player in one way or another, a lot of outside non football related stuff, general malaise and a bad culture basically. You could potentially go out and bring in Harry Redknapp who gets a couple of results and brings some optimism but its a very short term fix that doesn't resolve any of the issues.
Keep churning players. If they wont work for Ten Hag then get rid of them, they dont get to pick and choose who they'll work for. I'd be in zero tolerance territory with them and that would be irrespective of the managers position.
There are lot of points here in a bit of a mixed order to my understanding but I'll try to make my point.
Real Madrid have a big advantage when it comes to attracting players that neither us, nor anyone else really bar maybe Barcelona can compete with. They are the most prestigious clubs in the areas of the world that produce the very best players. The Ronaldos, Messis, Zidanes, Ronaldinhos, ... that caliber of players usually has Real or maybe Barcelona as the ultimate destination. Look at Haaland now, the plan for him long term is to end up there to cement his legacy. Bellingham is an English jewel, a generational talent and he sees Real as the place to be to reach individual and collective heights. How many equivalent Spanish players will be dreaming of any club outside Spain? We were streets ahead of Real in the late ´00s and yet they somehow had Cristiano Ronaldo and Kaka itching to join them. How many players run their contracts down like Kroos, Alaba or Rüdiger for the chance to play for club that is not Real Madrid? And to a lesser extent, how many players take pay cuts the way the Barcelona players did recently? When a player of the caliber of Mbappe wants a move, there is only one realistic destination and that ain't England or Germany or Italy. That's a long history of being looked at as the place where you win CLs and Balon d'Ors and where the biggest legends of the game have played. No one in England can compete with that.
The managerial comparison is not about what is better. It's about knowing what is needed at each stage of a club's development. If you have enough individual quality and a winning culture that runs through the club to achieve the club's ambitions, a facilitator that come in and just make marginal tactical tweaks while providing the big egos in those teams with the perfect platform to "do what they do", is the perfect appointment. Examples of this would be Chelsea hiring Ancelotti to lead a generation that knew exactly what they're about from the Mourinho years, Bayern appointing Ancelotti after Pep to bring his CL knowhow and of course Real appointing Ancelotti and Zidane.
If you are however a club that lacks said culture and trying to build from a lower point, that mentality and vision has to come from somewhere which is what City found in Pep and Liverpool in Klopp. If these guys enjoy more respect within the footballing fraternity, it's probably because it's considered generally a rarer talent to give a club an identity and clear personality, to be a builder in other words. Their qualities would be wasted and even clash at a club like Real but likewise, an Ancelotti or a Zidane (jury still out on the latter) are not people that will build from a lower point of a club's development, hence Ancelotti's relative failure with PSG, Napoli and Everton.
There is an argument to be made that Ancelotti could have been a great appointment for us in 2013. If our senior players had enough quality for another 2 years for one last hurrah, we certainly still had a strong winning mentality running through the club, he could have probably been the wise old head to steer to squeeze the last drops of that team. We don't have that now, hence a builder is what is needed because we're certainly not getting that mentality from anywhere else.
However true this is... he made Bruno captain, one of the mental midgets.
He plays Rashford every minute and gave him a giant new contract. Probably the weakest mentality in the squad.
He favoured Martial despite Martial's mind and body giving up on football.
What doesn't start cannot be dropped
Because we've lost games. That's all it is.
He has to pick a starting 11. If he drops the players with the wrong attitude, he'll only have a squad for a 5 a side competition. He did it with Sancho and he started a spat on twitter and went on strike.
"They've never lost at the ground that they've played at like 3 times".
They should just go with "100% of Uniteds defeats since last season have been under Eric ten Hag!!!!" That would be as useful a stat.
Why should have been captain then? Bruno is our best player tbh.
And the context, Rashford got him 30 goals last season, when he arrived Martial looked the only forward capable of playing the link-up ball he preferred but was ruined after pre-season, having binned Ronnie he was only given some sofa-cushion change to get Weghorst on loan (that after being in quite good form where we really would have benefitted from getting a good striker in, if sporting achievement would have been the main focus) and Bruno getting the captaincy, well, I agree he's not a leader but where are the leaders? Maybe a political move on his part, maybe an attempt to get him buying more into the new way of playing. And not least the club's refusal to back a genuine overhaul, by which I don't mean spending a billion in one summer, but professionalising the club (not least in long-term planning and recruitment) and accepting a painful slow-build.
Again though, I don't see the leaders. Varane would have been my choice, but he's not really a leader and he's not fit often enough, but a class player with a great career. A professional too. Martinez maybe. Can't see anyone else.
This is actually a very good point. I am sick and tired of managers not being transparent with the fans. The only manager who was somewhat was Rangnick and he was crap at his job.
I'm not sure about toxic but there's still a lot of survivors from old managers/teams at the club. Think of players here that are in their 5th season and more and you get:
Maguire,
McTominay,
Martial,
Dalot,
Lindelof,
Rashford,
Bruno,
Shaw.
I'm not saying all those lads are bad or they're toxic or whatever, they've just seen a LOT of failure for a club of United's stature that wants to compete for Premier Leagues and Champions Leagues. The likes of Jones, DDG and Fred are some of the oldies that have been removed but there's still a way to go. Now add in some more newer players like Sancho and VdB and it just seems there aren't many strong personalities in there.
I still get nightmares after watching away matches last season!
Bit long thread on ETH
https://en.rattibha.com/thread/1709515764707807553
https://en.rattibha.com/thread/1709515764707807553
Then one can seriously ask oneself whether he is the right man.
Does he have only one approach - "criticism"?
Some players can be criticised, the others need praise to reach their full potential, the third needs to be challenged, the fourth is about honour and so on.....
The club gathers football talents from all over the world, all with different cultures, characters, strengths and weaknesses, and all the manager can do to mould these talents into a team is "criticise" .... For real now?
Were they already mentally fragile last season or has something happened now in the summer? If they already were, why hasn't he done anything to change that? If it's new, then maybe he's done his bit? Question about question.....
People want to recreate the Ferguson era. It’s over.
Last season people were saying Ten Hag needs a few signings to take us to the next level. And now that he's brought some players in we're being told the players are shit with fragile mentality and no manager could do better with them. Hmm.
Also, "he doesn't feel he can be as harsh in his criticism as he'd like". Then don't be? Surely that's part of man management?? Otherwise they could hire me to just yell at the players.
Also, "he doesn't feel he can be as harsh in his criticism as he'd like". Then don't be? Surely that's part of man management?? Otherwise they could hire me to just yell at the players.
“Best manager since SAF” doesn’t sit too well with me. It might be right but it really doesn’t feel like it. Especially since he’s lost 7-0 to Liverpool
It is just a journo report citing "sources close to..", so who knows how much there is to it.
But if that is his line of defense, he can go, honestly. He has run out of excuses. He has brought in most of these players or decided to keep/extend them, and he has had over a season to work on the team's mentality.
I am all for remaining calm and giving the whole team time to improve. Keep calm with the manager, the goalkeeper, the midfielders. But there is no doubt that it is Ten Hag's responsibility to actually manage that improvement.
It needs to happen over the remainder of this season. And no, no pointing towards the January window. No excuses.
He needs to be able to do much better with this squad, much of whose assembling he oversaw, else he is not doing his job well enough.
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I watch Newcastle play, with passion (yes yes I know, passion FC, ole), desire, workrate but more importantly, they play good football and get the fans buzzing.
We seem to be a million miles away from that. Its so bad right now that even against cannon fodder teams we'd be reluctant to predict a win. At home.
I just can't see how ETH gets us out of this mess.
We seem to be a million miles away from that. Its so bad right now that even against cannon fodder teams we'd be reluctant to predict a win. At home.
I just can't see how ETH gets us out of this mess.
Ooops, I hear he has the "backing of the board".... can't help wondering who they've spoken to as a replacement!!!
How do you now he hasn’t? It’s clear this team has weak characters. Has he come out and thrown anyone under the bus? With Sancho did he kill criticise him last year or did he send him on training in Holland to take Sancho out of the firing line and gave him 3 months to get right? Rashford has been playing crap and the strongest statement I’ve heard from ETH is that Rashford keeps playing hard with better decisions and the goals will come.
I’m not defending ETH blindly but the players have never been called out or have been made to take accountability for failure. This is down to the owners. Someone here said the Glazers won’t cut losses and chase them. That’s exactly right. Some of these players who are clearly disgruntled are still here! You think ETH still want to turn to the likes of Martial when chasing a game?
I refuse to believe Eddie Howe is better. So is it the manager or the whole system?
Agreed. When stuff like that comes out it's normally a bad sign.
I honestly don't know at this point. Just very despondent right now as I see no way out, other than more defeats and thrashings by any half decent team. Feels like Ole/RR season all over again.
Why?
Because that would shatter the world of people who think Ten Hag is the next Pep/Fergie based on a League cup, that Newcastle also reached the final of.
I feel the same way as you. I will never stop caring or supporting United but I don’t believe firing ETH is the answer. The only sliver of light is Glazers actually selling up.
1. ETH won the league (albeit Dutch but still he won something)
2. Took Ajax in CL to semi-final
3. Before Newcastle, EH’s biggest achieve is what? Making Bournemouth stay up 4 of 5 seasons. Got relegated the resigned.
4. Before Saudi takeover, did ETH get the team to play like Brighton now?
5. Newcastle now, are they experience this level of success before of ETH alone? Or is it because of the budget they have?
I’m not trashing EH, but I stand by my view that he isn’t better than ETH. Also my ancillary point that no matter who you bring in will give a bump but we will still be a shower of sh*t as long as Glazers are here.
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