Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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I refuse to believe Eddie Howe is better. So is it the manager or the whole system?
These comparisons are always off, because we tend to apply them only in moments when other managers have good moments, compared to ours. Newcastle started the league season with three losses, noone was bringing up Eddie Howe then.
For the last two months, noone would shut up about what a miracle De Zerbi's Brighton are, and they have a great thing going indeed, but when they get clobbered 6-1 by Aston Villa that is just quietly registered, while neither retracting the previous glorification nor everyone losing their shit, which obviously would happen if this result happened to Man Utd.
Last I checked, Ten Hag beat Howe to the League Cup, and finished ahead of Newcastle in the league. I am not meaning to disregard whatever job Howe is doing, or excuse the poor job Ten Hag is doing at the moment, but we need to keep perspective, and calm.
 
These comparisons are always off, because we tend to apply them only in moments when other managers have good moments, compared to ours. Newcastle started the league season with three losses, noone was bringing up Eddie Howe then.
For the last two months, noone would shut up about what a miracle De Zerbi's Brighton are, and they have a great thing going indeed, but when they get clobbered 6-1 by Aston Villa that is just quietly registered, while neither retracting the previous glorification nor everyone losing their shit, which obviously would happen if this result happened to Man Utd.
Last I checked, Ten Hag beat Howe to the League Cup, and finished ahead of Newcastle in the league. I am not meaning to disregard whatever job Howe is doing, or excuse the poor job Ten Hag is doing at the moment, but we need to keep perspective, and calm.

True, but those defeats were against city, liverpool and brighton. Teams that would also beat us.

What's more pertinent is that they have managed to bounce back since and managed to beat the likes of PSG and city (league cup) whilst we're still floundering and showing zero signs of getting out of this malaise.
 
My fear is his football fundamentally won't work for us. The idea seems to be that we lure teams onto us and then smash it long, with the aim of picking up loose balls in behind the opposition midfield.

The problem is, it seems to create these end-to-end basketball-style games, because of the sheer amount of chaos and turnovers involved.

Many teams in the Premier League do not attempt to control possession or territory, they have one weapon against the big clubs, and that's the counter-attack.

You could let teams like Palace or Wolves have 99% possession, sit behind the ball and they wouldn't score (outside of set-pieces) in a month. However, provide them with transitional moments and opportunities for their fast, physical forwards to run into space...and you're playing right into their hands.
 
True, but those defeats were against city, liverpool and brighton. Teams that would also beat us.

What's more pertinent is that they have managed to bounce back since and managed to beat the likes of PSG and city (league cup) whilst we're still floundering and showing zero signs of getting out of this malaise.
The point is that you cannot just go and use the good parts of other managers' work as a foil to contrast with our manager's. You have to take the whole situation into account. I doubt our fans would have taken so kindly to parking the bus to a lucky 0-0 at Milan the way Newcastle fans have done, for example.
 
The biggest mysteries of the world are what happens after death, are we alone in the universe and what was ETH idea behind Mount signing.
 
These comparisons are always off, because we tend to apply them only in moments when other managers have good moments, compared to ours. Newcastle started the league season with three losses, noone was bringing up Eddie Howe then.
For the last two months, noone would shut up about what a miracle De Zerbi's Brighton are, and they have a great thing going indeed, but when they get clobbered 6-1 by Aston Villa that is just quietly registered, while neither retracting the previous glorification nor everyone losing their shit, which obviously would happen if this result happened to Man Utd.
Last I checked, Ten Hag beat Howe to the League Cup, and finished ahead of Newcastle in the league. I am not meaning to disregard whatever job Howe is doing, or excuse the poor job Ten Hag is doing at the moment, but we need to keep perspective, and calm.
Completely with you mate.
 
Because that would shatter the world of people who think Ten Hag is the next Pep/Fergie based on a League cup, that Newcastle also reached the final of.
Seriously, this kind of straw man arguing is so tiring and obnoxious.
It is not outrageous, weird, but perfectly rational, to consider Ten Hag a very good and capable manager, who was by all measures an excellent candidate to hire and who deserves patience and goodwill. To an extent. Especially since he had a reasonably successful first season.That is all.
Surely that is not too hard to accept as a common ground for discussion.
 
Eddie is great at managing people, so much better than ETH in this aspect. His players seem to have a lot of fun and consistently perform better than expected. He definitely has a lot of SAF in him. On the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised if ETH has a somewhat toxic personality.
 
I’m sure if Eddie Howe took over we would make him look shit as well . Rinse repeat
 
Because that would shatter the world of people who think Ten Hag is the next Pep/Fergie based on a League cup, that Newcastle also reached the final of.
Just because posters including me want ETH to stay doesn’t automatically mean we think he’s a pep /Fergie .
 
Eddie is great at managing people, so much better than ETH in this aspect. His players seem to have a lot of fun and consistently perform better than expected. He definitely has a lot of SAF in him. On the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised if ETH has a somewhat toxic personality.

Very different squad though. Newcastle have clearly been coached very well, but there's still a fair chunk of that squad that were there when expectations were basically "don't get relegated". It's no wonder they're all well on board while they're performing above expectations.

Let's see how he gets on when they're actually expected to challenge for something but results haven't gone his way.
 
Eddie is great at managing people, so much better than ETH in this aspect. His players seem to have a lot of fun and consistently perform better than expected. He definitely has a lot of SAF in him. On the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised if ETH has a somewhat toxic personality.

Jesus wept, so Eddie Howe is the new Fergie? I give up.

You have absolutely no idea how good Ten Hag and How are at managing players, you’re speculating.
 
Let's see how he gets on when they're actually expected to challenge for something but results haven't gone his way.

Yeah the Newcastle example doesn't have many parallels with United as far as expectations/pressures etc...the best team to use would be Arsenal, similar expectations on/off the pitch and money spend.

Newcastle are hardly pretty to watch and the stadium erupting every time they fly into a tackle and launch the ball into row z...would only last so long at United before the demand to actually win something took over.
 
1. ETH won the league (albeit Dutch but still he won something)
2. Took Ajax in CL to semi-final
3. Before Newcastle, EH’s biggest achieve is what? Making Bournemouth stay up 4 of 5 seasons. Got relegated the resigned.
4. Before Saudi takeover, did ETH get the team to play like Brighton now?
5. Newcastle now, are they experience this level of success before of ETH alone? Or is it because of the budget they have?

I’m not trashing EH, but I stand by my view that he isn’t better than ETH. Also my ancillary point that no matter who you bring in will give a bump but we will still be a shower of sh*t as long as Glazers are here.
Maybe Howe is better, who knows?

A few points though, EH is 8 years younger than ETH and do you not think EH could win the Dutch league if he managed Ajax?
 
The biggest mysteries of the world are what happens after death, are we alone in the universe and what was ETH idea behind Mount signing.
To be fair, he's looked like the better one of our midfielders whenever he's been fit and playing? Hojlund and Mount are some of the only players that can actually come out with any dignity in recent performances. Apparently these are two signings that are predominantly scouting based as well instead of ETH's personal ask (though he did approve of these signings of course)
 
Maybe Howe is better, who knows?

A few points though, EH is 8 years younger than ETH and do you not think EH could win the Dutch league if he managed Ajax?
You are being very speculative, no? The question from the prior poster implies EH may be better. I disagree on current evidence. EH may be better in the long run but I don’t believe he is a better replacement at this point.
 
I remove some of the blame from him as he only knows what he knows. The club must learn to not give managers so much power and letting them dominate the transfers and until this stops we will continuously overpay for players and sign overrated ones because they are on the managers limited shortlist. there is no point even thinking of replacing him until we get new owners who can appoint a DOF or listens to our extensive scouting network (less hubris). I'm just gonna ride this season out with a bottle of whiskey. Its sort of cathartic
 
There won't be any overhaul if he's replaced. It will be rinse and repeat for the players. They'll turn a corner for a while, new players will be slowly added and they'll succumb to the malaise plaguing the club.

He's clearly the best manager we've had post SAF in my view. People love to forget last season and what he took over.

What was so great about last season? Not a great deal in all honesty. There was some good points but in all honesty it was pretty average. It's only being looked at as good because the season before was a horror show. But last season was no better than 19/20 or 20/21.

Unless were counting winning the league cup as some huge achievement which it really wasn't/isn't.
 
What was so great about last season? Not a great deal in all honesty. There was some good points but in all honesty it was pretty average. It's only being looked at as good because the season before was a horror show. But last season was no better than 19/20 or 20/21.

Unless were counting winning the league cup as some huge achievement which it really wasn't/isn't.
It was the first time United have sealed a trophy and finished in the champions league spots post Ferguson. You don’t have to think it was a great season to believe he’s the best manager we’ve had since Ferguson.
 
Then one can seriously ask oneself whether he is the right man.
Does he have only one approach - "criticism"?
Some players can be criticised, the others need praise to reach their full potential, the third needs to be challenged, the fourth is about honour and so on.....
The club gathers football talents from all over the world, all with different cultures, characters, strengths and weaknesses, and all the manager can do to mould these talents into a team is "criticise" .... For real now?
Were they already mentally fragile last season or has something happened now in the summer? If they already were, why hasn't he done anything to change that? If it's new, then maybe he's done his bit? Question about question.....

I had some doubts over his motivation skills when I saw that his response to a 4-0 loss at Brentford was asking his players to run 14km in training. That works well when you are coaching an U14 team.
 
What was so great about last season? Not a great deal in all honesty. There was some good points but in all honesty it was pretty average. It's only being looked at as good because the season before was a horror show. But last season was no better than 19/20 or 20/21.

Unless were counting winning the league cup as some huge achievement which it really wasn't/isn't.

EFL Cup has been elevated to great heights after we won it last year by beating a bunch of Championship sides and Newcastle. It had no importance prior to last year and will once again be deemed irrelevant this year but was a major trophy last year.
 
It was the first time United have sealed a trophy and finished in the champions league spots post Ferguson. You don’t have to think it was a great season to believe he’s the best manager we’ve had since Ferguson.

Wow amazing. In the same breath you could make an argument for Mourinho because he got the most points one season or Ole because he managed back to back top 4 seasons.

It's a fairly pointless statement in all honesty, if ETH is sacked before Christmas would you still be saying he's the best manager we have had since SAF?

So far on evidence ETH is not worse or better than at least Ole, Mourinho or LVG. What happens in the next couple of months may chnage that but it's not looking particularly hopeful at the moment.
 
I think what a lot of people who are talking about De Zerbi, Postecoglu and Eddie Howe forget, is that they're under no pressure. There are no real expectations. They're riding a wave (especially at Newcastle. This is literally the greatest thing that's ever happened to 95% of that squad and backroom staff). There's no drama at those clubs. Put any of those managers at United and they'd all fail miserably. I'm pretty sure every manager on the planet except Pep would 'fail' here.

We've sacked every manager post Fergie when they've had a slump. What's that got us? A disjointed squad and exactly the same run of results as before. Most people on here would've been screaming to sack Fergie back in the day. Nobody has any fecking patience.

Just let this guy do his thing. If it doesn't work out after 3 years, we won't be in any worse a place than we would be if we sack him now, get a new manager in and sack that guy in 18 months!
 
I think what a lot of people who are talking about De Zerbi, Postecoglu and Eddie Howe forget, is that they're under no pressure. There are no real expectations. They're riding a wave (especially at Newcastle. This is literally the greatest thing that's ever happened to 95% of that squad and backroom staff). There's no drama at those clubs. Put any of those managers at United and they'd all fail miserably. I'm pretty sure every manager on the planet except Pep would 'fail' here.

We've sacked every manager post Fergie when they've had a slump. What's that got us? A disjointed squad and exactly the same run of results as before. Most people on here would've been screaming to sack Fergie back in the day. Nobody has any fecking patience.

Just let this guy do his thing. If it doesn't work out after 3 years, we won't be in any worse a place than we would be if we sack him now, get a new manager in and sack that guy in 18 months!

Totally agree.

Other then relegation or not winning the odd league cup we would be no worse off in 2-3 years if ETH won nothing or didn’t even qualify for the CL as no manager consistently qualified for the CL.

It’s ironic people call it the cult of ETH/Ole/Jose when these same people literally think changing managers will eventually lead to success , in spite of all the evidence at the United circus to the contrary.
 
I think what a lot of people who are talking about De Zerbi, Postecoglu and Eddie Howe forget, is that they're under no pressure. There are no real expectations. They're riding a wave (especially at Newcastle. This is literally the greatest thing that's ever happened to 95% of that squad and backroom staff). There's no drama at those clubs. Put any of those managers at United and they'd all fail miserably. I'm pretty sure every manager on the planet except Pep would 'fail' here.

We've sacked every manager post Fergie when they've had a slump. What's that got us? A disjointed squad and exactly the same run of results as before. Most people on here would've been screaming to sack Fergie back in the day. Nobody has any fecking patience.

Just let this guy do his thing. If it doesn't work out after 3 years, we won't be in any worse a place than we would be if we sack him now, get a new manager in and sack that guy in 18 months!
But also probably, the job is bigger at United than all the coaches we've had.
Probably the competition is harder in United as you're competing for big trophies.
Probably we've never had coaches who can compete with Pep or Klopp, ETH included.

I think the easiest thing to do, is ETH being competitive again. That will reduce all this bickering of going round about other managers.

Have you seen Liverpool fans or City fans comparing their managers to other EPL managers? No, why because they have proven competent managers. Probably Arsenal fans may only accept Pep as their coach after Arteta.

What about us? How many teams may take ETH as their coach.
City
Liverpool
Arsenal
Newcastle
Brighton
Spurs

All of them will almost refuse to switch to ETH at this moment.

So what we need is inward soul searching. ETH needs to perform to level that he's a better coach than 18-19 managers in the league then such comparison will cease.

Then, for ETH to be Man United manager for the next 2 years he needs to be worth the struggle. What the team needs is progress nothing much.

We are not in Madrid territory of demands. Just progress.
 
Making Bruno your captain and then making your Number 1 midfield transfer priority a player who can't play in the same team as him is up there with one of the dumbest transfer moves ever.
 
I think what a lot of people who are talking about De Zerbi, Postecoglu and Eddie Howe forget, is that they're under no pressure. There are no real expectations. They're riding a wave (especially at Newcastle. This is literally the greatest thing that's ever happened to 95% of that squad and backroom staff). There's no drama at those clubs. Put any of those managers at United and they'd all fail miserably. I'm pretty sure every manager on the planet except Pep would 'fail' here.

We've sacked every manager post Fergie when they've had a slump. What's that got us? A disjointed squad and exactly the same run of results as before. Most people on here would've been screaming to sack Fergie back in the day. Nobody has any fecking patience.

Just let this guy do his thing. If it doesn't work out after 3 years, we won't be in any worse a place than we would be if we sack him now, get a new manager in and sack that guy in 18 months!
Yeah that's definitely part of it with Newcastle. If you look at the season Howe (and the Saudis) came in, the first half of the season they had 11 points and looked nailed on to go down, Howe won 1 of his first 9 games after being appointed in November. But that also allowed him to basically build them up from the floor, and with a handful of key signings in January, in the second half of the year they get 38 points (so 76 if you extrapolate that over a season). Suddenly they're a team on the up with positivity everywhere, the players will run through walls after going from certain relegation to Champions League qualification form. Whereas we feel more like the husk of a dead empire.
 
But also probably, the job is bigger at United than all the coaches we've had.
Probably the competition is harder in United as you're competing for big trophies.
Probably we've never had coaches who can compete with Pep or Klopp, ETH included.

I think the easiest thing to do, is ETH being competitive again. That will reduce all this bickering of going round about other managers.

Have you seen Liverpool fans or City fans comparing their managers to other EPL managers? No, why because they have proven competent managers. Probably Arsenal fans may only accept Pep as their coach after Arteta.

What about us? How many teams may take ETH as their coach.
City
Liverpool
Arsenal
Newcastle
Brighton
Spurs

All of them will almost refuse to switch to ETH at this moment.

So what we need is inward soul searching. ETH needs to perform to level that he's a better coach than 18-19 managers in the league then such comparison will cease.

Then, for ETH to be Man United manager for the next 2 years he needs to be worth the struggle. What the team needs is progress nothing much.

We are not in Madrid territory of demands. Just progress.

I'm sorry but that just isn't true, if any of those clubs you've listed were looking for a new manager last Summer when we got EtH he makes the shortlist for all of them and probably turns down approaches from Newcastle, Spurs and Brighton.

He has not been perfect, but lets not re-write history.

Sacking managers has got us absolutely nowhere, this is a manager that got Ajax to the latter stages of the champions league, an Ajax who had an excellent footballing setup, something we do not have here so he has a poor recruitment team to lean on when looking for the right profile of player which in my opinion has resulted in him defaulting to players he knows.
 
I'm sorry but that just isn't true, if any of those clubs you've listed were looking for a new manager last Summer when we got EtH he makes the shortlist for all of them and probably turns down approaches from Newcastle, Spurs and Brighton.

He has not been perfect, but lets not re-write history.

Sacking managers has got us absolutely nowhere, this is a manager that got Ajax to the latter stages of the champions league, an Ajax who had an excellent footballing setup, something we do not have here so he has a poor recruitment team to lean on when looking for the right profile of player which in my opinion has resulted in him defaulting to players he knows.
Why are we talking about last summer? Why?
We are talking about now.

Last season even Liverpool were struggling, today Klopp is back like he never left.

Did you know last summer Ange would be spurs manager? No.
Can they take ETH now to replace Ange absolutely no.

About Ajax. Even Ralf managed Schalke in 2011 semi final of CL. Even Villarreal reached semi final of CL. Even Poch reached CL final with Spurs.

So reaching 1 semifinal is not a very big thing to boast about. Why dont you bring the full CL history of ETH at Ajax, don't cherry pick 1 season only.
 
To be fair, he's looked like the better one of our midfielders whenever he's been fit and playing? Hojlund and Mount are some of the only players that can actually come out with any dignity in recent performances. Apparently these are two signings that are predominantly scouting based as well instead of ETH's personal ask (though he did approve of these signings of course)
Yes he has looked quite decent recently. I said a week ago that I'd bet on him being more important to us than Bruno at the end of the season. I actually quite like Mount.
But my question is what ETH wanted from him. He's clearly not playing Eriksen role. He is basically deployed in the same role to Bruno. They both seem to be getting in each other way and leaving Casemiro on his own in midfield. And ETH just keeps going with this setup.
Also, I don't buy the idea he is Bruno replacement / competition. Bruno doesn't need rest, and Eric made him captain so it's not likely he's getting dropped. It's just bizarre all around.

I thought in the summer that ETH recognised our weakness in Eriksen defensively being poor, and wanted to fix that with high energy player like Mount. I thought yeah, that makes sense! And then it turned out Ten Hag managed to make us even weaker in central areas as he is playing two attacking midfielders high up the pitch. This isn't going to stick.
 
But also probably, the job is bigger at United than all the coaches we've had.
Probably the competition is harder in United as you're competing for big trophies.
Probably we've never had coaches who can compete with Pep or Klopp, ETH included.

I think the easiest thing to do, is ETH being competitive again. That will reduce all this bickering of going round about other managers.

Have you seen Liverpool fans or City fans comparing their managers to other EPL managers? No, why because they have proven competent managers. Probably Arsenal fans may only accept Pep as their coach after Arteta.

What about us? How many teams may take ETH as their coach.
City
Liverpool
Arsenal
Newcastle
Brighton
Spurs

All of them will almost refuse to switch to ETH at this moment.

So what we need is inward soul searching. ETH needs to perform to level that he's a better coach than 18-19 managers in the league then such comparison will cease.

Then, for ETH to be Man United manager for the next 2 years he needs to be worth the struggle. What the team needs is progress nothing much.

We are not in Madrid territory of demands. Just progress.

Have said it numerous times before and will say it again and that's missing out on Klopp (due to Woody) and Guardiola (due to shite structure and Bayern getting there first) has ultimately been the death knell for us
 
I understand that as a top team. You requirre a consistent top level. But from a human perspective.

A definition of a human = not perfect and will do mistake.

So the point is.

I still hear him keep from last season that " is unacceptable" = then his players keep doing mistakes. And he keeps repeating.

Not only Maguire, even Onana has done 2 really big mistake now.


And as long as the players are human. I think the mistakes will still come.

So i might can drop repeating this is "unacceptable " again and again.

Many players try to do theirs best or their max level at the top level is just like that. And they are still a human.


Due to law of attraction :
When it is a negative energy around the clubs. The clubs might attract negative energy and result.

So unlucky or mistakes or whatever.

But nothing will last forever. So it can be a positive.


But again. Ten Hag demand a lot. Like his players shall be perfect and no mistakes. BUT....will United players become perfect?
 
There are lot of points here in a bit of a mixed order to my understanding but I'll try to make my point.

Real Madrid have a big advantage when it comes to attracting players that neither us, nor anyone else really bar maybe Barcelona can compete with. They are the most prestigious clubs in the areas of the world that produce the very best players. The Ronaldos, Messis, Zidanes, Ronaldinhos, ... that caliber of players usually has Real or maybe Barcelona as the ultimate destination. Look at Haaland now, the plan for him long term is to end up there to cement his legacy. Bellingham is an English jewel, a generational talent and he sees Real as the place to be to reach individual and collective heights. How many equivalent Spanish players will be dreaming of any club outside Spain? We were streets ahead of Real in the late ´00s and yet they somehow had Cristiano Ronaldo and Kaka itching to join them. How many players run their contracts down like Kroos, Alaba or Rüdiger for the chance to play for club that is not Real Madrid? And to a lesser extent, how many players take pay cuts the way the Barcelona players did recently? When a player of the caliber of Mbappe wants a move, there is only one realistic destination and that ain't England or Germany or Italy. That's a long history of being looked at as the place where you win CLs and Balon d'Ors and where the biggest legends of the game have played. No one in England can compete with that.

The managerial comparison is not about what is better. It's about knowing what is needed at each stage of a club's development. If you have enough individual quality and a winning culture that runs through the club to achieve the club's ambitions, a facilitator that come in and just make marginal tactical tweaks while providing the big egos in those teams with the perfect platform to "do what they do", is the perfect appointment. Examples of this would be Chelsea hiring Ancelotti to lead a generation that knew exactly what they're about from the Mourinho years, Bayern appointing Ancelotti after Pep to bring his CL knowhow and of course Real appointing Ancelotti and Zidane.

If you are however a club that lacks said culture and trying to build from a lower point, that mentality and vision has to come from somewhere which is what City found in Pep and Liverpool in Klopp. If these guys enjoy more respect within the footballing fraternity, it's probably because it's considered generally a rarer talent to give a club an identity and clear personality, to be a builder in other words. Their qualities would be wasted and even clash at a club like Real but likewise, an Ancelotti or a Zidane (jury still out on the latter) are not people that will build from a lower point of a club's development, hence Ancelotti's relative failure with PSG, Napoli and Everton.

There is an argument to be made that Ancelotti could have been a great appointment for us in 2013. If our senior players had enough quality for another 2 years for one last hurrah, we certainly still had a strong winning mentality running through the club, he could have probably been the wise old head to steer to squeeze the last drops of that team. We don't have that now, hence a builder is what is needed because we're certainly not getting that mentality from anywhere else.
I think we are more or less saying the same thing, we just have come at it from different places. You said it exactly, we DID have the mentality, the reputation before Sir Alex left. We had Real-level standards. Those are out the window now. Keeping my fingers crossed that we can get the rats out and have a complete change in the organization, from board level down.
 
I think we are more or less saying the same thing, we just have come at it from different places. You said it exactly, we DID have the mentality, the reputation before Sir Alex left. We had Real-level standards. Those are out the window now. Keeping my fingers crossed that we can get the rats out and have a complete change in the organization, from board level down.
More or less, I wouldn't say it was to the same level though. Ours and Chelsea winning mentality could take us as far as winning the PL. That was our limit. Real's is the CL. They just have more prestige, belief and maybe more importantly, consistently boast Balon d'Or quality players in a way that we rarely did. So Ancelotti would have probably enough to maintain where we were, PL winners and the occasional deep run in the CL but if we wanted to make that next step to be in the latter CL rounds consistently and look at home there, I still think at some point we would have needed either 1) a consistent stream of Balon d'Or winner quality players like we had with Cristiano, or 2) a system coach who will build a more tactically advanced setup. I happen to think the former is really difficult for any British club for cultural and historical reasons which leaves us with having to take Liverpool and City's road in how they became consistent CL fixtures over the past 5 years. I guess my point is even if Ancelotti would have been a relative success right after Fergie, there was always a point where we'd need a system builder/ideologist because I just don't think any club bar Real and maybe Barcelona can be sustained by individual quality the way Real can.
 
Isn't that what Solskjaer tried? I'm not sure any approach works with these players

Depends on how long you do it for. If you do it temporarily to help lift your players from a slump, that's fine. If that's your long term approach to fooball, not so much.
 
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