Its suprising no one is questioning why the players always look so tired and unfit especialy for the game against Wolves before which they had 10 days off, you could blame it on Erik's complete mis-use of pre-season if the issue hadnt been occuring all through the 2nd half of last season as well with the players only seemingly being able to play 45 minutes.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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We need a DOF. ETH is a great coach and did above expectations last year. But when we started signing all of these ex-ETH players, i already got a bit concerned.
I'm definitely in the 'give him time' group, think we probably should calm down and think we will see some improvements over the next few weeks - the injury situation will get better, Amrabat has potential to make a difference and, in amongst all of what we're in seeing, there are some signs of cohesion. A bit of promise even.
That's the glass half full scenario I know - what worries me is the if and when. The what happens if we don't see any uplift and when what purports to be our ownership decide that something, anything, needs to be done.
i mean, who the hell would want to take over and what would happen then? To turn a phrase 'there is no (more) money', yet anyone taking over would be looking at some of these signings - and yes, I'm thinking Anthony, Casemiro, probably Onana, probably Mount - thinking none of them cut it as part of fixing things.
That's the glass half full scenario I know - what worries me is the if and when. The what happens if we don't see any uplift and when what purports to be our ownership decide that something, anything, needs to be done.
i mean, who the hell would want to take over and what would happen then? To turn a phrase 'there is no (more) money', yet anyone taking over would be looking at some of these signings - and yes, I'm thinking Anthony, Casemiro, probably Onana, probably Mount - thinking none of them cut it as part of fixing things.
It's not all bad if a new manager comes in because in Amrabat, Hoijlund, Rashford, Onana (he isn't as bad as this bedding period suggests), Varane et al we do have serviceable players. You can have Mount at 10, for example, he won't be as influential as Bruno but he will be effective in pressing and goal contributions - a proper third midfielder without the buggage of giving away ball recklessly. If Amrabat starts well he can partner Mainoo at the base of the midfield.
What's hurting us is the number of injuries, low confidence and a few players that look like they have been burnt out irrecoverably. Remove the duo we had in midfield last night as replace them with a younger version as suggested above and you could see changes. Once our midfield is a factor off the ball the defence will naturally improve.
We just don't play with enough energy, physicality and urgency. I don't get it. Not sure if it is ETH or our players are both. Bums me out.
We were undercooked after pre-season due to the international players only playing 3 or 4 (incomplete) games and the rigours and corporate pressures of touring the U.S.
None of this was EtH's fault.
Also the first half of the 2nd half of last season (!) we were good. It wasn't until the accumulation of games took it's toll with injuries and exhaustion that we struggled. We actually played the most games of any club in Europe.
Is he? I would be 100% behind him of I saw some effective tactics being implemented. But that is clearly not the case?
If we fail to win at Turf Moor I guess the title of this thread can add "Sack Watch" to the phrase.
There might be a misunderstanding... the System ETH has in mind cannot be in place. Not even in part. The reason is obvious. Hojlund made his starting eleven debut last Saturday. Mount is injured. Antony is gone, same for Varane and Shaw (even if Varane might not be one of the main characters for this particular point). So no, categorical no - the system he has in mind can absolutely not be in place, some ideas potentially but definitely not the plan he actually had in mind, (hopefully) recruited for and (again hopefully) spent preseason to prepare the players for. Even if there wouldn't be any absencies, it would still be too early to evaluate a system as it obviously didn't even have enough time to sink in. For a system to not be a liability, players have to understand their positions and roles, their tasks and duties. When this is achieved, then there will be an emergence of synergies, natural patterns of play and what we label as something that is bigger than the sum of its parts.
Apart from that, I hope we don't try anything wild with Casemiro as something else like a DM. FFS man, we are a fecking dysfunctional team, for once don't try to be too clever but just play players in their best role. What do you guys expect, that as an 8 there would be less distance to be covered?!
For a good number of years I have watched other teams run faster for longer in the games.
The 3 things you name should be a given at this level and not something we are questioning.
It's either ped's or a lot of our players are unfit and don't give a damn and if even if we put them on PED's it wouldn't make much difference.
Now this is not a new thing so ETH can't be blamed for it.
I would love to be in a room with folk like McTominay after that debacle incident thats on video showing the ref was twice as fast as him.
McTominay would never walk on the park in a United shirt again if I had any influence.
Why do you keep saying this, when we have had clear attacking patterns in most of our games this season? We were all over Bayern and Brighton, played decisive, pressing football, until we fell apart when conceding.
Player management is a point that needs improvement.
Criticizing a player in public only muddies the atmosphere of the team. Young Ajax players are not the same as United stars with a successful career.
The Dutch character is to be frank and direct in press conferences, but that always brings problems.
Criticizing a player in public only muddies the atmosphere of the team. Young Ajax players are not the same as United stars with a successful career.
The Dutch character is to be frank and direct in press conferences, but that always brings problems.
So for the first 20-30 mins then. Then no plan B
And no plan on how to defend cutbacks
Onana, like Antony, is another player that Erik knew inside-out and back-to-front from his Ajax days.
If he turns out to be another flop, I'm just astonished at how poor a judge of player Erik seems to be.
F**king hell, I coach under 14s/15s. I'm no Guardiola, but after 1 or 2 seasons coaching a player even I'm able to identify their strengths and weakness: "this lad is very poor at saving shots", "this lad is too predictable, he has no right foot and always cuts inside to his left".
Leaving aside the debate of whether the manager should have that much power on transfers (he shouldn't!), how in the f**k did Erik think these two were worth spunking 130 million quid for?!
If he turns out to be another flop, I'm just astonished at how poor a judge of player Erik seems to be.
F**king hell, I coach under 14s/15s. I'm no Guardiola, but after 1 or 2 seasons coaching a player even I'm able to identify their strengths and weakness: "this lad is very poor at saving shots", "this lad is too predictable, he has no right foot and always cuts inside to his left".
Leaving aside the debate of whether the manager should have that much power on transfers (he shouldn't!), how in the f**k did Erik think these two were worth spunking 130 million quid for?!
Onana has a good body of work. He has been a very good keeper for both Ajax and Inter. There is no reason why being good goalkeeper in other leagues shouldn't translate to the Premier League.
If he fails, it is on Onana, not Ten Hag.
Antony is different. Far more variables when trying to adapt from Dutch to English football.
It is Casemiro and Ericksen. They dont have the legs. The midfield is the engine of the team and we are out of fuel!
We need to sign high energy players that want to win the ball and play is simple.
Hopefully Amrabat is one. Palhinha would be a great signing.
Agreed mate, but I think it goes a little further than that. Shaw has been culpable and Dalot too among others. Rashford lately... It's just night and day collectively vs other teams.
You are right though, those guys can't do it and Case needs to play 2/3 of our games for us to stand a chance of keeping him healthy.
Personally, I think it's too early to throw the toys out of the pram. The real test is when we get back all our key players -- that's probably in time for the City game. And how we go forward after that.
The next few games are bankable ones -- even without the missing 9 players. We have gone through this before even under the previous regimes. Start poorly and then we get a stretch of easy games then all our negativities disappear. (Recency syndrome)
But like those previous seasons, we then go on a run of wins albeit easy games -- its after that stretch that we need to gauge ETH and whether we have actually progressed with all the backing ETH has been getting incl the ETH playing tree transfer approach.
The next few games are bankable ones -- even without the missing 9 players. We have gone through this before even under the previous regimes. Start poorly and then we get a stretch of easy games then all our negativities disappear. (Recency syndrome)
But like those previous seasons, we then go on a run of wins albeit easy games -- its after that stretch that we need to gauge ETH and whether we have actually progressed with all the backing ETH has been getting incl the ETH playing tree transfer approach.
Thing is, when is the last time we've had all of our best players available? I wouldn't pin your hopes on that.
True but we have lost 4 starters at the start of the season. More importantly, they are the players ETH has brought in who knows his system.
Plus we have the new doctor from Arsenal starting this week. He has to sakafy the team. Saka claims its his mum's cooking. Right...
Maybe they are too comfortable in thinking they will always get selected. A famous quote from a basketball legendary coach:
All these Players vs Manager debate is tiring. Both arguments are valid/bullshit depending on how you choose to look at it.
It's ETH's fault because he lost the dressing room. It's ETH's fault because he keeps on insisting on mediocre Eredivisie players. It's ETH's fault because we only look good for the first 10 minutes of the game. It's ETH's fault that our fitness levels are still not on par.
On the other side of the fence, it's the players fault that they're creating a toxic dressing room. It's the players fault that they lack effort on the pitch. It's the players fault that they are so physically and mentally weak.
AND
On top of the fence, it's nobody's fault that we have to deal with so much injuries. It's nobody's fault that we always have to pay United tax on new signings.
Long story short, just take one game at a time man. Don't need to go at each other's heads in this blame game.
It's ETH's fault because he lost the dressing room. It's ETH's fault because he keeps on insisting on mediocre Eredivisie players. It's ETH's fault because we only look good for the first 10 minutes of the game. It's ETH's fault that our fitness levels are still not on par.
On the other side of the fence, it's the players fault that they're creating a toxic dressing room. It's the players fault that they lack effort on the pitch. It's the players fault that they are so physically and mentally weak.
AND
On top of the fence, it's nobody's fault that we have to deal with so much injuries. It's nobody's fault that we always have to pay United tax on new signings.
Long story short, just take one game at a time man. Don't need to go at each other's heads in this blame game.
Onana only played under ETH for 1-2 seasons
Again, managers don't decide player price on the transfer market. If PSG was to sell Mbapee for 10mil, would you give manager credit for signing him?
Find a new stick to beat him. This is getting boring
One thing that concerns me about Ten Hag is the extremely poor man management he exhibited when dealing with Sancho. Anyone who manages staff knows the cardinal rule that you don’t criticise individuals in public. That’s just humiliation. If you want to criticise someone you do it in private, to their face. All Ten Hag did by criticising Sancho in public was set in motion a course of events that led to us losing the services of a player - regardless of the effectiveness of that player.
Poor, poor management.
Poor, poor management.
He tried the soft approach and Sancho repaid him with shite performances. Nothing wrong with how ten Hag is now handling him. The guy is rotten.
Pep also has poor management I guess, because he did the same thing to Matheus and called Phillips fat.
Are you sure about this?
Onana was at Ajax from 2016-22.
ETH was at Ajax from 2017-22.
Overmars wasn't replaced for like a year, and then was replaced by Gerry Hamstra, from sc Heerenveen, and former Ajax striker Klaas jan huntelaar. They fecked up the transfer window of '22 big time, spending 120 million on like 9 players, almost all of whom have been sold by now. Then vd Sar, who was still CEO at that time, hired Sven Mislintat. Then van der Sar resigned, and Mislintat stepped into the power vacuum and bought 12 players from all over Europe, for too much money. Most players look like absolute flops at this moment. Mislintat hired Steijn as manager, who is an absolute dud as well, losing/drawing almost al matches so far, with totally unrecognizable football and Mislintat is being investigated by Ajax for a conflict of interest with at least two transfers this summer. We have been an absolute shambles. So please, fire EtH so that we can hire him again
Every player needs different approach. Fergie never criticized Cantona or Scholes for example. He also treated Ronaldo only with love. On the other hand, with some players he would go in fight.
Same as Jose, Guardiola and Klopp are doing.
Players are not kids and they must be criticized but manager must know how and when. When you go in public with it then you must be sure that that player can handle with it.
He was banned for a long period & benched after that.
Had Accepted a move to Inter before United contacted ETH
@AjaxNL
Sounds fun. If you want to turn it into Disney land. I know just the guy
We have two clear attacking patterns, one being "give it to Rashford" (I've seen this before) and the second is "push everybody forward". Nothing else is "clear" in out games, we stumble upon chances. Like I said, this is my biggest worry when it comes to Ten Had, I don't see us moving the ball (and opposition) as a team.
I think it's clear to anyone with eyes that we can do better, but to claim that this season we have seen no clear tactics is just patently incorrect.
It’s remarkable the amount of times you see “makes subs/changes” and when you look at the subs bench it’s not clear how exactly he can do that without making things worse. I think some expect him to make water into wine while half our squad is injured
Our team is in absolute bits, and you don't have to spend 30 seconds online to find a tactical analysis video showing that some of the players aren't doing their jobs in the system.
I'm not sure what a manager can do if the players are following the system but not putting in the required effort to make it work, other than bin those players, which he seemingly tried to do but couldn't.
I think this point gets lost a lot but he wanted Antony early in the window can't remember the quoted figures 40 million? Somewhere there. Had the club not dithered around he would have looked a lot better value. Instead they messed around and massively over paid for him. He is a system player nothing more.
Mount is still open for debate but I was never a fan of his. Hopefully he comes good.
I think he's getting a free ride because he's coming with a reputation of being a good coach. But we did not play worse under Ole for periods of time (like you mentioned first 20mins), did people say he was a good coach back then? I don't remember this being mentioned often. West Ham also play with clear tactics now.
The tactics in first two games of the season (when we had Onana and Mount) were clear, just incredibly ineffective.
The biggest difference is he got much better players to work with last and this season, but the jury is still out on whether ETH is actually a good coach.
The jury is not out, he has proven to be a good coach at multiple clubs. Utd is a massive challenge, and he's struggling to get us going this season, but you can't just write off his career because of that, we have made every manager since Ferguson look shite.
In the previous comment you made a good point about players not following his instructions / not putting enough effort. This is all true. There are plenty of excuses for ETH currently, no one is going to deny that. However, I just question if we've seen enough from him at United to say "he is a good coach". I believe we have not seen nearly enough. It's all based on his reputation in other clubs. He might have been a good coach on that level, just like Ole at Molde for example, but on this level? I have not seen this yet.
I dont have any basis for this other than anecdotal evidence, but I don't think Mount was ETH's first choice for that Midfield slot. He spent a summer chasing a progressive ball carrier in FDJ, there were then some links to him again in this summer which came to nothing. I could be wrong but I can't think of anyone of the profile of FDJ that was available and attainable for the fee we paid for Mount, so I think ETH made the best of a situation and chose to sign Mount and make a tactical change. There is also the Home Grown situation to think about which may have played a part.
I think you can criticise ETH for certain signings that were obviously his pick, but I'm not 100% sure he went to the recruitment team and insisted that Mount must be his priority. I do think he asked to get his preferred Midfielder and Goalkeeper in first as they would have the most influence tactically especially if the team was changing system and Mount was being asked to play a role unfamiliar to him.
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