In theory he's 3rd number 9 at the club which is fine. In theory.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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Big part of that is his own doing though. I think ETH achieved more than was expected from him last season, but now it's hard to argue it's not his squad that is failing miserably. I think it's fair to criticise him at this point, the football is bad, recruitment is questionable (did get some things right, but also seems like he got some things horribly wrong).
Part of the reason he was successful last season was short term stop gap in Casemiro on which Ten Hag stumbled upon it seems. This season he's setting Case against an impossible task (based on the tactics we've seen so far).
Watching his interview saying that the midfield isn't a problem and it was just the attack and defense, when the midfield was constantly overrun Vs Spurs worries me.
I'd hope there's at least part of him trying to just deflect attention away by saying this. I don't want to believe he can't see what everyone else can.
Can't help but feel last season was a relative over-achievement for this squad but that said..
..All this talk of being short on the required quality etc...what ever happened to player development? Do we neglect this because we're Manchester United and expect / demand instant success?
Probably systematic of society in this day and age...most want / expect an instant fix. Very few willing to graft for success or suffer the often turbulent road to get there.
We've thrown money at the issue even before SAF left. Let Ten Haag have his 3-4 years to build something. Something that will hopefully have a much sounder foundation when the Glazers and the rest of the clowns behind the scenes pack up and leave.
Much rather have the blueprint of building an exciting young side that can challenge in 2-3 years than consistently trying expensive Bandages. It's exhausting.
And I'm certain ETH would much prefer this approach but his hands (and legs!) are undoubtedly tied by the expectant mix of the board, fanbase and media..
..All this talk of being short on the required quality etc...what ever happened to player development? Do we neglect this because we're Manchester United and expect / demand instant success?
Probably systematic of society in this day and age...most want / expect an instant fix. Very few willing to graft for success or suffer the often turbulent road to get there.
We've thrown money at the issue even before SAF left. Let Ten Haag have his 3-4 years to build something. Something that will hopefully have a much sounder foundation when the Glazers and the rest of the clowns behind the scenes pack up and leave.
Much rather have the blueprint of building an exciting young side that can challenge in 2-3 years than consistently trying expensive Bandages. It's exhausting.
And I'm certain ETH would much prefer this approach but his hands (and legs!) are undoubtedly tied by the expectant mix of the board, fanbase and media..
His point was that the attackers didn't press enough and the defence didn't push up enough so that the midfield was left with way too much space to cover on their own. The midfield was overrun because of the players around it.
I think he right in a way, two out of three of the front men weren't that committed in the press and when it was beaten they just stood still. Even when they tracked back the application wasn't the best, watch that video on intensity and watch how Garnacho was metres away from their RW but didn't bust a gut to get into position or into contention with the ball. Same with Bruno and Case, they were in position but not really committed to the duel, Sarr just ran past Case like he didn't exist.
The back line was too deep in my view and whoever stepped up into midfield be it Shaw or Martinez they didn't do a good job of supporting Casemiro. That left a huge gap in midfield which the midfield couldn't cover on their own.
I've already accepted the season will be a disaster and it's not entirely ETH's fault. He has credit in the bank for months yet.
The first sentence has some truth to it but there's also a simpler explanation. If you play two number 10s who are almost as high up the pitch as your centre forward, you're leaving the rest of your team with a near impossible task if the opposition make it through that first line of pressure. The midfield gets overrun because there are no midfielders in midfield anymore.
The template for the style he wants to play is Liverpool from 2018-2020 but he doesn't have the personnel to do this effectively. In fact he doesn't have the personnel to play any particular style effectively because of the mish mash of players we have.
Liverpool were a counterpressing behemoth that weren't really interested in recycling possession but the squeezed teams into their half and pressed so high up that they continuously forced turnovers from opponents. They were able to do this with and aggressive midfield and defensive 3 but the most important part was how high up the defensive line was.
They had peak VVD and Gomez/Matip who would completely render the space behind them useless with their recovery speed, and the same with long balls because they were beasts in the air. This allowed their defensive line to be at the half way line pretty much but still be defensively sound.
Our CBs Varane and Martinez are not a particularly quick bunch so we can't push our defensive line as high so by nature this will create more gaps and more space for our midfield and attack to cover when pressing. You then add an attack with Rashford who half heartedly presses and its no coincidence why gaps appear. To make matter worse is then having Casemiro to cover the gaps which is insane considering his age and style.
He has an idea which can clearly work but he's not thought it through clearly if he's trying to implement it with this group. Poor planning to waste a preseason with this style or not go after players more suited for it.
Liverpool were a counterpressing behemoth that weren't really interested in recycling possession but the squeezed teams into their half and pressed so high up that they continuously forced turnovers from opponents. They were able to do this with and aggressive midfield and defensive 3 but the most important part was how high up the defensive line was.
They had peak VVD and Gomez/Matip who would completely render the space behind them useless with their recovery speed, and the same with long balls because they were beasts in the air. This allowed their defensive line to be at the half way line pretty much but still be defensively sound.
Our CBs Varane and Martinez are not a particularly quick bunch so we can't push our defensive line as high so by nature this will create more gaps and more space for our midfield and attack to cover when pressing. You then add an attack with Rashford who half heartedly presses and its no coincidence why gaps appear. To make matter worse is then having Casemiro to cover the gaps which is insane considering his age and style.
He has an idea which can clearly work but he's not thought it through clearly if he's trying to implement it with this group. Poor planning to waste a preseason with this style or not go after players more suited for it.
I think the point is the defence, either the left back or the LCB must push up to make a midfield box and then actually contest in the midfield battle. We didn't see this and the defence ended up too deep and thus giving a now outnumbered Casemiro too much ground to cover. If you watch the sequence to the first goal you will see this - Shaw gets easily beaten by a pass out wide, Garnacho isn't on his man and no one follows their RW to the bye line to challenge, players just take up defensive positions but aren't challenging for the ball or tracking runners.
Problem is when you have people like De Zerbi come into a less wealthy club (though they have a significant transfer surplus now, of course), with new, inexperienced players and have them clicking within the rest of the side almost immediately. Newcastle looked much better after half a season with Howe, without spending the way that we've spent -they're very wealthy, of course, but it didn't all go straight onto the pitch right away in terms of flashy new signings. There will be other examples. It's increasingly clear how much of last season was built upon Case being mobile and at top level, alongside Rashford hitting his a-game. Some of that, Rash in particular, can be attributed to Ten Hag, and most of the purchases last year were good (Antony excepted- Malacia is a squad player and jury is still out), but pre-season was worrying and the set-up so far doesn't look great. It's not just being by-passed so easily, but movement, willingness to create space, take the ball and work off each other to draw in and bypass the opposition. We're so sluggish off the ball in large part, and static in possession, particularly in creating options. That's just not good enough after more than a season- there are lots of issues at boardroom level, but other clubs have been in crisis financially or around their upper leadership and still been coachable in fluent play, even if they miss a cutting edge.
Even if someone like Rashford doesn't have an Eriksen-level footballing IQ, you can still train him to make certain types of movements and to look for team-mates as well as insisting on him following press patterns,. Antony is still making most of the same mistakes as last-time, and not all of that is just 'lacking a focal point'. Mount is known to be fairly 'quick' at adopting tactical instructions and diligent, so how is he allowing the centre / Casemiro to keep being exposed so easily. People pretzel logic the set-up as representing ETH's genius plan or a version of his winning Ajax tactics, but at the very least there are failures in communication or take-up alongside a failure to recognize the physical limitations of Case in particular at this stage compared to Ten Hag's Ajax DCMs. I'm sure we'll play better with Hojlund when he finally comes in, based on what i've seen in terms of attributes and movement, but ETH can't make excuses around missing a couple of players, when there's still enough talent there to adapt.
Fernandez,Alvarez,Diaz are the main ones
You would really hope these stinging words will get a reaction out of them today much like the third league game of last season did
I get that, but I just don't think it's a system our team is comfortable playing. We tried it on occasion last season with Fred in Mount's role. It requires everybody in the team to not only know their roles but perform them to a high standard. In both games so far this season our players don't even look confident in knowing where they should be.
We should also be playing to the strengths of our players. Rashford looks completely lost as a striker in this system and even if he gets moved back to left wing he's not really the hard running pressing machine he needs to be to make this work. I'd like to be proven wrong but I think we're a long way away from making this work. I think the easiest way to get this team playing is by tweaking the midfield and bringing in some support alongside Casemiro.
Or those players who in the past have downed tools for previous managers do the exact same with Ten Hag, which is most likely with the weak mentality of more than a few of them.
I'm not gonna lie I do worry about the mentality of many in this squad when facing adversity. Far too often this team capitulate in a second half when going behind,somehow Erik has to stop this happening so much or he will be in trouble
I agree with this and regarding the suitability of players it looks like an ill thought out idea because only one player in our front four is adept at keeping the ball under pressure and he is the worst attacking player of the lot or ever. Rashford and Bruno can't keep the ball and ETH will need to do something very harsh and drastic, in a Van Gaalsque manner, to get them to go with the program but that will cost him the dressing room and his job.
I think the thing that's making him adamant is that he is already committed and he wouldn't be a top manager if he allowed himself to go with the wind. Even if he was to twitch the midfield the only player remotely capable of being a DLP is Eriksen whose legs are going/gone. Pairing him with the current version of Casemiro will result in the same pedestrian midfield we had last year minus the benefits in transition he hopes to get this term.
We lack the technical and athletic basics for this tactic, if he doesn't think it through he won't be here by Christmas because this league is merciless. In 2021 Woodward didn't want to sack Ole but he ended up having to because in this league even a Forrest can ruthlessly exploit the weaknesses we have and turn us over.
Same, there's only a handful who I wouldn't expect to completely down tools but there is a few I'm worried about and one of them is a fan favourite who probably won't be getting dropped anytime soon no matter how many stinkers he drops.
Yeah that dressing room is a pit of vipers and it wouldn't surprise me that a couple of them, all armed with new contracts, already smell blood and they will do him in. If he doesn't invest in youth to insulate himself he will be gone by Christmas. He needs to have young players raring to go cause soon he won't have the likes of Rashford, Bruno and Shaw to rely on they got their new deals and futures secure its time to put their feet up and enjoy.
Their heads and output do drop after 30-45 mins. We can be 2-0 up or miss the chances and be 0-0. We come out second half so lethargic. I don't believe the missed chances alone at Spurs made them like that, we've gone 2-0 to Spurs last year and it finished 2-2. Seville we went 2-0, all over them for 30 mins and then completely eased off and let the gamesmanship from them succeed and they got their very lucky goals back.
Quite a lot of these ref mistakes come from our tentative approach, we're making our own bad luck and doing a minimum for long periods expecting too many decisions rather than keeping our game going.
Quite a lot of these ref mistakes come from our tentative approach, we're making our own bad luck and doing a minimum for long periods expecting too many decisions rather than keeping our game going.
Tweaking the midfield would involve going back into the market for another player. Eriksen was a short-term solution last season and his limitations were sharply exposed several times so I wouldn't be happy if we went back to playing him on a regular basis either. We needed to raise the bar quite substantially from last season. I don't think Mount does that either, and he's injured now in any case.
One of the things that impressed me most with Ten Hag last season was his response to the first two games going badly wrong. That did involve two big signings coming through the door but that was also what was needed. You're probably right about him being less willing to make a change to a system he has gone all in on, but the Mount injury might change that if he was viewed as such a key target this summer.
I don't have a great deal of optimism for this season but I do still think it's salvagable if the correct decisions are made now. I expect it'll be another battle for Champions League football which feels like two steps back because further progress did feel achievable.
People underestimate certain players in that dressing room, they are poisonous and if our season gets worst and honestly I do believe the likes of Rashford, Shaw and potentially Bruno will be the first to completely down tools especially if Ten Hag's calls them out like he did recently with the attackers not following instructions against Spurs.
Rashford got his new contract and his first two games have featured some of the most inexcusably lazy body language and work rate I've seen from a United player.
And when he was on the hunt for a new deal people who saw through his charade were being lynched on this board. The reason why teams in our state need clear outs is to avoid the bad apples poisoning the rest. Our clear outs just target the less influential and the outspoken ones but the golden boys are just as dangerous. Quick to give up and not focused enough to deliver just the basics needed from a professional player.
It’s about time Erik drops one of the “seniors” if they’re not pulling their weight. I’m looking at Rashford and Bruno.
The thing I hate most about our performances is that they unearth our psychologists. They all of a sudden know the thoughts and plans of our evil players.
Folks is it not time to stop this, 2 games into the season.
There is now an hourly dig at ETH on the radio and daily rags.
I hope you can take a step back have patience and support the manager.
There is now an hourly dig at ETH on the radio and daily rags.
I hope you can take a step back have patience and support the manager.
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In a few hours we we could be looking at 6 points from 9 and much of the drama looks unnecessary, would still like an encouraging performance that suggest improvement.
He should've been retained. ETH didn't want that but it shouldn't have been his choice. There wasn't that football knowledge below the Glazers to have confidence to say no, and there still isn't.
It's too early. I think Mount is underwhelming too and Casemiro is not a long term solution, but it's crystal clear ETH's system misfires without a threatening front line and that needs a striker. Let's see how things change a few months in with the new guy before we judge. We know he wanted instant oats Kane and couldn't afford him. The club went for a longer term project instead so let's not wet the bed after two matches.
Antony is also a part of that frontline who seems to be unstoppable but bang average. I think now is fair to judge ETH, he knew where some of our main issues were but spending money on Mount was not priority
He needs a centre forward. He bought a centre forward. Let's see how he gets on. Be patient.
He is utterly clueless.
FRAUD ALERT
He hasn't got a clue.
He hasn't got a clue.
Give him another 2 years and 400m?
He's finished here.
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