Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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I disagree, the Mount thread was only positive when it looked like the deal had fell through. Onana is a great signing and will do well. Hojlund has the weight of the entire world on his shoulders now so people are hoping he can do something but no one's expecting anything crazy from him. From what I've seen, there has been optimism around potential signings and now disappointment around the fact we haven't actually improved the squad outside the GK.

You can call it pessimism but I think quite a few people are being realistic about our chances this year, and no one around here has the ability to affect a result with their mindset. Speaking of which, the players have only come from behind to win once while Ten Hag has been the manager, they clearly don't have the mental resilience you're trying to credit them with.
This place is a subset of United fan base which largely are becoming negative adding more pressure to the players and management which doesn't help anybody. Speaking on the United fan base in general you back the manager until you're certain he is not the right man to take the team forward then you let him go.
I'm still fully in his camp I'll change my tone when I think otherwise any other thing is just whining for the sake of it.
 
Why are we learning a new system in the second season though? Yes he may have had to make do first season, but we have largely the same squad. Sounds ludicrous making them learn a new system after just one season.
There is no new system, he just wants them to win the ball higher up the field more often.
 
Not sure he will ever shake the Anthony transfer. Absolute awful piece of business that's put us back and absolutely fecked us on FFP.
To be fair, I don’t think the quality of football and lack of control and finishing since the league cup is what he can’t shake. It’s got Ole mk2 vibes all over this, especially seeing Rashford adapting the old ‘it’s not my fault’ routine.
 
Serious question, no intended 'tone': Have you seen anything from the end of last season (go back as far as you want), over the summer, to where we are now after the first two games to suggest we could challenge for the title this season?

I'm all for jumping on the bandwagon, I'm all in if we at least look like we're playing good football, the results will come but I can't see anything but the wheels coming off at some point before Christmas.

Ten Hag is a good manager but you can't say he's infallible and we have to trust him no matter what, he is rightly being questioned for some of the choices he is making and that's just the life at a massive football club. Blindly following a manager is how we keep getting ourselves into situations that take years to unwind. Saying you don't need to look for positives because you 'trust' the manager is a dangerous mindset.

I'll answer your first question, yes a title challenge would be 85 points. Having a top class goalkeeper, someone to allow Bruno not to be ran into the ground and a very good young striker compared to no striker could easily be worth 10 points. I think that we still need a midfielder.

Blind trust? At the start of last season any realistic Utd fan would have snapped your hand off so quickly the arm came with it if they were offered 3rd and a trophy. Outplaying and beating the Spanish Champions in Spain and getting to an FA Cup final didn't hurt either.

That's what he delivered despite the only striker he had that could stay fit being massively unprofessional and needing to be shipped out, losing key players with bargain basement replacements.

We are literally 2 matches removed from the last game of his first season where he outperformed expectations. My faith has 20/20 vision.
 
We really do differ, I've seen this team not being able to avoid losing against a decent team away from home. I've seen a manager give faith and trust to players who have never really deserved it for way too long.
The result vs Wolves was a miracle, they properly battered us and nothing justifies such a lack of prep from the team.

I'll leave you to focus on the bad...enjoy!

But Win, Lose or Draw we'll still be here next week :devil:
 
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I think the Bruno debate is pointless anyways as it's all speculation essentially as to whether he COULD play for a team like City in a similar system that's winning everything. But the bigger issue is what you said: instead of going out and surrounding our best creative player with others that mask his main weaknesses (ball security, running with the ball, positional discipline), we bought a player that offers more of the same that's a bit better dribbling wise but worse creatively. Bruno is unique in that he has genuine BITW level traits with his ability to create and final third passing, but it's coupled with low levels in other parts of his game that have to be accounted for when building a midfield around him.

Agreed. It's strange that majority of us know what type of midfielder we need, and it's pretty straightforward. But the most important man can't see it.

I hope EtH can make it here, albeit his occasional head-scratching player selections and tactic. Because I kind of like the guy: his man-management and his approach to the game. Just like players, manager has weakness also. And it should be up to the Club to cover his weakness, so manager can showcase his strength.
 
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I think it's possible that many people are misinterpreting what EtH meant be "front and the back". In response to the question about midfield.

What if the issue is that the defence (back) aren't squeezing up and holding a higher line?

What if the issue is that the attack (front) isn't pressing very well collectively or holding up the ball well?

Both of these things can make the spaces in midfield seem massive. Both of these things can leave the midfield taking the blame.

Could it be that EtH knows better than the umpteenth cafite moaning about the midfield?

He speaks like that because this style of play, with its good and bad aspects, is what he was brought here to implement. Explain what and to whom? He made his name at Ajax by utilizing the same tactical ideas he's trying to implement here. Two attacking midfielders, both positioned very high on the pitch. Check. A more fluid left side with the winger either receiving the ball wide or tucking inside to occupy the left-half space and both the left attacking midfielder and the left back providing support and overloads. Check. The right-winger holding the width, the FB playing on the underlap and the right attacking midfielder being the 3rd man support. Check. He came one shot away from reaching the CL final with these tactics. . Yet, you have people pulling their hairs and screaming their lungs out about the supposed "madness" of it all.

As Pep used to say when he was on the ropes during his first season, there are only two possible outcomes: It will work in the end or it will not. But this is what he was signed to do. It's easy to "like" a particular style of play when the team is winning games left, right and centre. ETH isn't on the same level as Pep and Klopp. Nevertheless, he comes with a progressive tactical plan, one that tries to incorporate several of these two managers' principles and also one that's in accordance with most managers at top clubs are trying to do (some are doing well, some others are failing). The outrage, in this particular moment, is reactionary because, going by the posts on here, the answer is -almost always- to become more defensive, to fill the side with grafters, revert to reactionary football (to secure top-four or whatever means to "save our season") and a low block with Bruno trying to be a hero and Rashford chasing balls in-behind. But then, if you are not willing to take the risk, don't complain when other clubs move forward while we keep going around in circles, chasing our tails.

Going back to your post, you are correct for the most part. His tactics always left huge spaces open for counters because a) he wants to have as many players in and around the box as possible and b) he has a preference for dynamic positioning due to his man-to-man oriented press. The players have to think for themselves (and read the coaches' pre-match instructions) and adjust their positions to win the second/third balls and press/track the opposition players who pose the biggest threat, depending on the occasion. You don't get the high reward without the high risk in the modern game. Mourinho's downfall is proof of that. And striving to find a good balance in a high risk environment is the main reason the game is moving away from the "Roy of the Rovers" types to players who can deliver the goods while operating in a certain framework. Go where the space is, instead of expecting everything to revolve around you. Do your part off the ball, cause if you don't, the high press will collapse and we'll be in trouble. This is also why some fans complain about how sterile and unimaginative modern football looks, despite high scores and lots of chances. There's little room for pure and unadulterated individualistic brilliance (unless you have Ronaldo's numbers). It is what it is. It's currently not working. No, that's an understatement. It looks horrific. But not because Fred's not playing (don't make me laugh), the ever elusive central midfielder who will do everything on his own hasn't been signed (you'll never find him because he doesn't exist) or because we need to start getting everyone in front of the press in the build-up (yes, that's the most moronic thing you read on here lately). We need to make better decisions on the ball in the first seconds of a move in the final third, otherwise all these high turnovers we force will be for nothing. And we also need better reactions off the ball in the crucial first seconds after possession has been lost. And we need to get there as a team. That's what he has to figure out, if he wants to stay here after the end of this season.
 
If the football was good and we had a system of playing then I could take the losses

It's hard to take because we look clueless. I've seen United lose various times and hold 5/6/7 goals but the Wolves game was the worst it's ever been tactically. You wouldn't see the opposition pick up the ball and just sprint in a straight line to the opposition box at Sunday league level and it happened multiple times, the complete lack of awareness or preparation for this setup is eye opening.

I don't understand why we can't play football. I'm talking about the basics of the game, players aren't making runs, we struggle to string 5 passes together, we have 160m worth of wingers playing who can't run past a defender. We've also managed to assemble what must be the smallest starting 11 in the PL. There's no physicality, the one person in the team with a bit of fight is 5 foot tall. Set pieces both in attack and defence are a joke. Worst in the league by a mile.

Everything about the club is mess.
 
If the football was good and we had a system of playing then I could take the losses

It's hard to take because we look clueless. I've seen United lose various times and hold 5/6/7 goals but the Wolves game was the worst it's ever been tactically. You wouldn't see the opposition pick up the ball and just sprint in a straight line to the opposition box at Sunday league level and it happened multiple times, the complete lack of awareness or preparation for this setup is eye opening.

I don't understand why we can't play football. I'm talking about the basics of the game, players aren't making runs, we struggle to string 5 passes together, we have 160m worth of wingers playing who can't run past a defender. We've also managed to assemble what must be the smallest starting 11 in the PL. There's no physicality, the one person in the team with a bit of fight is 5 foot tall. Set pieces both in attack and defence are a joke. Worst in the league by a mile.

Everything about the club is mess.
prob because some of these players are braindead as well. Look no further than during the spurs game (i believe) where spurs have two players in our box down behind the play. We have possession of the ball and are attacking 11v9. A prime chance to really get a great scoring chance by taking advantage of the number situation as neither of the spurs players were trying to get back up and in the play. Instead, we see shaw just launch a hopeless long ball forward that the keeper easily takes and the chance is over and ruined. Shit like that is just basic intelligence that shouldnt have to be said.
 
If the football was good and we had a system of playing then I could take the losses

It's hard to take because we look clueless. I've seen United lose various times and hold 5/6/7 goals but the Wolves game was the worst it's ever been tactically. You wouldn't see the opposition pick up the ball and just sprint in a straight line to the opposition box at Sunday league level and it happened multiple times, the complete lack of awareness or preparation for this setup is eye opening.

I don't understand why we can't play football. I'm talking about the basics of the game, players aren't making runs, we struggle to string 5 passes together, we have 160m worth of wingers playing who can't run past a defender. We've also managed to assemble what must be the smallest starting 11 in the PL. There's no physicality, the one person in the team with a bit of fight is 5 foot tall. Set pieces both in attack and defence are a joke. Worst in the league by a mile.

Everything about the club is mess.
Yeah it's baffling. The team and backroom staff has changed significantly over the last 10 years but one thing has been consistent throughout. We are bad at the basics. There are clubs that have been relegated and promoted again during that time that have transformed into teams that play good football. And several hundred million pounds later we're still here serving up rubbish
 
He has to get them on the pitch first for a good number of games.

I've questioned some of the transfers but any manager needs his best players on the pitch before full judgement.
I dont disagree. Was responding to the comment that owners situation will force him to resign
 
Where did I say his style is a possession one?

A midfield of Casemiro (this twilight version) - Mount - Bruno would work if his style was possession based and he had possession based players in defence and attack. You could then trust the defence and attack to recycle possession effectively while the two #10s create havoc centrally.

Using that midfield trio for the purpose of being "lethal on counter transitions" is moronic. One doesn't have the legs anymore to play a high energy game like that. The other two aren't good enough defensively. It's a midfield that has easily been bypassed and will continue to do so because the player profiles are square pegs being asked to fit in round holes.

He has been here for 63 games, not 2. And spent 430m along the way in case you were unaware.
But this is what I disagree with. Saying the current trio aren't suited to his system when it's been 1 and a half games of poor performances is just another level of knee jerk. On paper for what he's looking to achieve it actually suits their skillets.

As for your point about him managing 63 games, if you're basing him rambling like a madman after what he achieved last season then it's even more lunacy.
 
Where did I say his style is a possession one?

A midfield of Casemiro (this twilight version) - Mount - Bruno would work if his style was possession based and he had possession based players in defence and attack. You could then trust the defence and attack to recycle possession effectively while the two #10s create havoc centrally.

Using that midfield trio for the purpose of being "lethal on counter transitions" is moronic. One doesn't have the legs anymore to play a high energy game like that. The other two aren't good enough defensively. It's a midfield that has easily been bypassed and will continue to do so because the player profiles are square pegs being asked to fit in round holes.

He has been here for 63 games, not 2. And spent 430m along the way in case you were unaware.

Yet, you were literally one of Ole's biggest supporters right up until the end. You wouldn't hear of a bad word against him after a hundred odd games of looking utter shite, for the most part.

Your lack of self awareness really is one of the joys of the Caf.
 
But this is what I disagree with. Saying the current trio aren't suited to his system when it's been 1 and a half games of poor performances is just another level of knee jerk. On paper for what he's looking to achieve it actually suits their skillets.

As for your point about him managing 63 games, if you're basing him rambling like a madman after what he achieved last season then it's even more lunacy.

He's an agenda driven madman. I wouldn't waste my time mate.
 
You don’t see how the presence of established senior players who have no prospect of playing impacts the morale of the squad? Are you new to football? He clearly doesn’t want Maguire or Scott either. And we’re on year 9 of the Martial experiment.

You think they're affecting the atmosphere or kicking up a fuss in the dressing room or on the training ground? Have you got proof? Literally every single club has players that don't feature much.
 
On paper for what he's looking to achieve it actually suits their skillets.

How?

And does it not come with the caveat that all three individually might be suited but they need other players that we don't have to compliment them? Because it sure as shit doesn't work otherwise.
 
How did you intend to force him out? Hold his wife and children hostage and not release them until he's signed with another club?

ETH has been quite explicit that he's not in his plans and is down the pecking order. Clubs like West ham want him and for whatever reason maguire see's himself above that.
Offer him 6m to play for West Ham. Buy him out.

Don't sweat the small stuff. Major issues/risks are that we have 2 very expensive wingers who are not producing, an unproven kid up front and an unbalanced CM.
 
How?

And does it not come with the caveat that all three individually might be suited but they need other players that we don't have to compliment them? Because it sure as shit doesn't work otherwise.
Mount and Brunos work rate off the ball suits the pressing system high up the pitch. Both are capable ball carriers and flexible to drift into attacking pockets whilst also being comfortable from deep.
Casemiro is positionally astute and although his legs are going, he's still a commanding central midfielder. Of course he cannot be isolated and relies on the entire team to be appropriately positioned in rest defence.

Ten hag believes that we were not adequate in defence / intensity and also in attack. I believe its also down of how much he attack couldn't finish their dinner against Spurs.
When I see the Spurs game I'm more pissed off at our attackers than our midfield. I'm actually baffled at how people were quick to moan at the midfield before considering how shit our attack was, because they had so many chances and failed to convert any of them.

For 45 mins I didn't see a more dominating performance from our midfield away from home against the top 9, and that came from a Cas-Mount-Bruno midfield. So there IS something there and there IS a big potential. It will just take time to bed in.
 
Is there any other manager who gets heat like him. The guy is being treated as if we are getting relegated. Give him time to work ffs.
 
To be fair, I don’t think the quality of football and lack of control and finishing since the league cup is what he can’t shake. It’s got Ole mk2 vibes all over this, especially seeing Rashford adapting the old ‘it’s not my fault’ routine.

what baffles me is leading up to the League Cup final we were excellent -it was the first time in a decade i started looking forward to our games, those Barca matches for example were like a Fergie CL night.
 
we played fairly well in the first half vs spurs.. with basically no striker. If we had scored from one of those chances, Spurs would have had to attack more and we’d likely better countered.

the midfield with Case’s lack of pace has gaps, but the lack of striker is continually damaging us.
 
People need to calm down a bit. We should have been up by a goal or 2 vs Spurs at HT.

Our big chances created so far is 2nd in the league I believe. We got off to a much worse start last season and bounced back. We haven't played a game with Hojlund yet either.

Let's see how we look after 10-15 games. We got off to a flying start under Jose in the 2017-2018 season and most of us thought we'd push City all the way. We all know how awful the 2nd half of that season was.
 
Agreed. It's strange that majority of us know what type of midfielder we need, and it's pretty straightforward. But the most important man can't see it.

I hope EtH can make it here, albeit his occasional head-scratching player selections and tactic. Because I kind of like the guy: his man-management and his approach to the game. Just like players, manager has weakness also. And it should be up to the Club to cover his weakness, so manager can showcase his strength.

All the more reason to pray for a sale of the club because no doubt whoever bought us would clean house with the executives
 
Why are we learning a new system in the second season though? Yes he may have had to make do first season, but we have largely the same squad. Sounds ludicrous making them learn a new system after just one season.
Surely a manager with a set way of playing would get that started right from the off. Teach the competent and weed out the opposite. Bed in the new philosophy.
 
People are too reluctant to criticise because, for many, he's the last hope. After countless managers failing, we finally hired one that was considered a modern, progressive coach, and, if he fails, what then?

It's understandable. Especially when he's shown promising signs. The stuff he's being criticised for is warranted, though. The worrying part is that pretty much all of it is his own doing.
 


Sounds like the same angry vibes post Brentford last season,wonder if he sent them round the field again this week. He has to be careful outing them in public because could end up losing the dressing room. Really hope that doesn't happen because then things can unravel quickly
 
Those journos are incredibly spiky



If Gibbs-White doesn't have Casemiro on toast like that match last season, I think we'll smash them :nervous:
 
Sounds like the same angry vibes post Brentford last season,wonder if he sent them round the field again this week. He has to be careful outing them in public because could end up losing the dressing room. Really hope that doesn't happen because then things can unravel quickly
He usually praises them in front of the public and criticises in training. He won’t accept anything other than 100% though so hopefully the players will learn if they don’t run in a game as much as they should then he’ll make them do it in training. After the Brentford game we then beat Liverpool and Arsenal so something worked.
 
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