Yep. Anyone having serious doubts about him is a fecking moron.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
- Thread starter sewey89
- Start date
- Status
Yep. Anyone having serious doubts about him is a fecking moron.
If he fails, I’m convinced the next manager will also fail and the one after that, simply because we are awful at transfers.
Which for EtH is also his first 40, so you can surely see how that would be a disadvantage to him vs the other three?
This is probably why the comparison is being made between first 40....
Yeah he should have at least met with him as Ralf clearly has eye for a talented player
This is it. As frustrating as some of the decisions ETH has made here, a lot of it boils down to our incompetent DOF giving the manager a free reign with recruitment no questions asked. John Murtough has to go before anyone else, and there needs to be a power shift put in place towards transfers otherwise this club's going nowhere.
Every manager we hire will likely fail until we get rid of these owners and start running the club in a competent manner.
Yeh but you get maniacs calling for a title run and for his head because we are not winning every game. So his first/last 40 compared to Guardiolas last 40 would give us an insight to how far we are away from it.
Does he? Wasn't he trying to sign Sabitzer?
Tricky 3 months ahead for him. He needs to find a way out of the mess or he'll be in Tenerife by Christmas.
Obviously some of the issues around 'openness' do relate to competency or willingness to properly front-line press(Rashford in particular), as detailed in numerous threads in longer and more technical fashion; likewise, obviously midfield has to be helped by backline in terms of stepping up or across and not leaving DM exposed. But to use those errors as a way to exculpate himself and the midfield from the failings we saw through large parts of both games is pretty worrying. Not even 'midfield has to improve too' in terms of pressing together or movement. This is the key as to why people are concerned specifically about the manager, setting aside everything else.
Of course, the fact that (a) he has so little pushback from a DOF with no apparent larger 'strategy' and (b) is -perhaps consequently - given so much responsibility for identifying transfer targets, is also a larger concern. He can't spot the faults, isn't having them brought to his attention (or at least not by anyone with a strong voce) and isn't being assisted in rectifying imbalances through recruitment support, or at least not that we can see or being brief/leaked to about.
Of course, the fact that (a) he has so little pushback from a DOF with no apparent larger 'strategy' and (b) is -perhaps consequently - given so much responsibility for identifying transfer targets, is also a larger concern. He can't spot the faults, isn't having them brought to his attention (or at least not by anyone with a strong voce) and isn't being assisted in rectifying imbalances through recruitment support, or at least not that we can see or being brief/leaked to about.
The issue is though once the press from the front is bypassed there's a free for all to just stroll through the midfield. Pressing is fine when it works. When it doesn't you need sufficient cover.
Part of the problem with the front press is twice playing Garnacho who isn’t good enough to start games, and Rashford who is one of the worst number 9s in the league.
Both players who have little impact off the ball at the best of times, even worse when they’re playing poorly with the ball as well.
Both players who have little impact off the ball at the best of times, even worse when they’re playing poorly with the ball as well.
He's being really stubborn because there's no way he doesn't see that either.
If you look up, you can see the point flying completely over your head.
So the main talking points are now this:
-Ten Hag should not be in charge of transfers
-The system we are trying to play clearly doesn’t work it is suicidal
Let’s go back in time one year and analyze what was happening.
Ten Hag asked for a defensive mid and a right winger and did not get them before the season started. Antony could have been bought earlier for about €70m, but that was deemed too much.
Another RW player wasn’t signed either.
Frenkie was chased all summer, without going after a secondary target. I am sure there were other players on the list topped by Frenkie. Possibly Casemiro.
We lost the first two games and we were in panic mode. Antony was now priced higher because Ajax did not want to sell him anymore, because the season had started already.
Overpaying for Antony was entirely on the club.
Chasing Frenkie until the last minute was on Ten Hag, but I agree that for a unique world class player like that you try everything if there is a chance of signing him.
The club is not decisive enough in transfer dealings because the Glazers don’t really want to spend the money.
The system: this is what Ten Hag was planning all along, we could not do it last year. He adapted by playing a deeper line.
This year with Onana and Mount, we can finally play a high press with a high line, which we did successfully against Spurs in the first half for 40 minutes.
That is what Ten Hag is going for and will continue to work on until we become more consistent, or until he is forced to adapt again because the players can’t or won’t do it.
The second half was unacceptable, players were not engaging in duels and letting their man go. That’s not tactics, it’s poor character.
For now, realize he is a coach that is hamstrung by ineffective club management. We should have a backup for Casemiro signed regardless of outgoing transfers, and a new cb.
-Ten Hag should not be in charge of transfers
-The system we are trying to play clearly doesn’t work it is suicidal
Let’s go back in time one year and analyze what was happening.
Ten Hag asked for a defensive mid and a right winger and did not get them before the season started. Antony could have been bought earlier for about €70m, but that was deemed too much.
Another RW player wasn’t signed either.
Frenkie was chased all summer, without going after a secondary target. I am sure there were other players on the list topped by Frenkie. Possibly Casemiro.
We lost the first two games and we were in panic mode. Antony was now priced higher because Ajax did not want to sell him anymore, because the season had started already.
Overpaying for Antony was entirely on the club.
Chasing Frenkie until the last minute was on Ten Hag, but I agree that for a unique world class player like that you try everything if there is a chance of signing him.
The club is not decisive enough in transfer dealings because the Glazers don’t really want to spend the money.
The system: this is what Ten Hag was planning all along, we could not do it last year. He adapted by playing a deeper line.
This year with Onana and Mount, we can finally play a high press with a high line, which we did successfully against Spurs in the first half for 40 minutes.
That is what Ten Hag is going for and will continue to work on until we become more consistent, or until he is forced to adapt again because the players can’t or won’t do it.
The second half was unacceptable, players were not engaging in duels and letting their man go. That’s not tactics, it’s poor character.
For now, realize he is a coach that is hamstrung by ineffective club management. We should have a backup for Casemiro signed regardless of outgoing transfers, and a new cb.
Concerns have been there for more 90mins obviously.
He's been let down massively, the squad is worse than it was last season and there's still so much work to be done on selling players, never mind replacing them. He needs another 2 seasons to get the squad to where it needs to be, the fans wont allow that however and the narrative on EtH is building in the media too. The squad is paper thin as is evident with the current injuries, any coach looking for a job would be mad to take this one unless its for anything other than an 18 month swansong with a decent pay off at the end, when the usual manager cycle comes to an end and the fans have fully turned.
He might truly believe that but even if he doesn't I can see why he wouldn't want to criticise his new midfield set up and big money signing in Mount.
This is what I mean. Sections of ours fans convince themselves that the money hasn't been available. The reality is worse, those Glazer clowns have watched as billions of pounds have been wasted and have never done nothing about it. I don't understand this level of incompetence. The failings of our managers are not financial but rather how the club functions above the manager. I sincerely hope if new owners get to the club everyone above EtH gets the sack.
Crikey
Man's ego is too big. Beginning to sound like Ole.
To be honest, I don't necessarily disagree with your assessment of our midfield. I was reasonably happy with Casemiro but I did say I'd have preferred Caicedo due to his mobility and age. But I look at other clubs and they don't seem to sign a player that doesn't fit their system just because they can. So I find it hard to buy into the idea that ETH, who was supposed to be a meticulous tactician, decided to deviate from his whole plan just for the sake of having Casemiro.
And my point was that the opportunity was there to sign the type of players you said we need, but he didn't do that. Even De Jong isn't the type of midfielder you refer to, and he was desperate for him. All I'm saying is that he obviously sees things differently to you, me and everyone else, rightly or wrongly.
People are right to have concerns about this,he desperately needs new ownership as they would revamp the whole recruitment structure. Looking at these quotes directly he shouldn't be absolving the midfield of blame
Ramblings of a madman. Defence and attack can't make up for the midfield trio consisting of two #10s. You need possession based monsters all across the pitch to make a setup like that work.
Also if the reason for being open was defence and attack, why on earth was he unchanged for that game? We got battered at home by a relegation fodder, what made him think going unchanged away at top 6 was a good idea?
I'm not sure I agree. Whilst I respect Casemiro, his poor performances last season were a bit overlooked and he was riding on his initial impact. For me he looks like a player on his way out, similar to the Matic signing in many ways.
Malacia - not yet made an impact really. Shaw has been pretty safe since he arrived.
Eriksen - shoehorned into a position he's not suited to. Looks old and slow, but his quality is there. Already replaced.
Onana - too early to say.
Martinez - very good last season. Has looked very shaky so far this season.
Hojlund- jury still out. Huge fee for a very unproven player, who is now thrust into a position where a simply need him to deliver to a high level. Not fair on him but that's the position we've put him in.
Antony - Not made an impact really.
Mount - jury still out but regardless of his performances it has created an issue tactically. We may shoe horn him into a deeper position but then I'd wonder why we didn't sign a player suited to that position who has already been excelling there.
Weghorst - don't need to say much here. Only a loan thankfully.
Sabitzer - same as above. Constantly injured too.
That's nothing to do with the ownership and is down to the manager to sort out. We can't even point to our spending anymore as ETH has been well backed and had the control over transfers that he wanted.
So many daft posts on this page questioning him after gameweek 2. It's actually hilarious if you take it as a joke, worrying if posters are genuine.
How can it be? In terms of notable departures, we've lost De Gea, Fred, Sabitzer, Elanga and Weghorst. That's a lot of dross. We've brought in Onana, Mount and Højlund. We also have Mainoo and Hannibal as squad options. That's a nice swap.
You couldn't be more wrong about what you said. His style is categorically not a possession one. If anything it's designed to be lethal on counter transitions as well, when we've just lost the ball. He relies on players being able to win back the ball to set up counters, and for that to happen everyone needs to know their pressing triggers. If he's saying the attack aren't doing it well, I believe him.
Also you might want to park hyperbole in calling him a rambling mad man after 2 fecking games in
Apols unclear, im looking at it for the game vs Forrest, where 2 of those are injured along with Shaw.
Ah, got ya.
So genuinely how long do you personally give a manager?
I'll answer my own question...all things considered from the owners, to the directors, to the players, to the transfers and the manager himself. A top 3 finish and a small trophy was enough for me to give him another season.
The over-reaction to the first 2 games of this season has been crazy, even discussing the manager after 2 games seems mental to me. Currently this is one of the worst threads on the Cafe, almost as bad as the match day ones.
I think Casemiro is a good player, but I don't know if he is the right player for this system that EtH is looking to play. I also think EtH's hand is going to be forced with all the injuries;
As i said its very similar to how PSV are trying to play at the moment:
Yeah the Casemiro defence was a bit weird and like he's not acknowledging a serious issue with the midfield. He doesn't have anyone to control tempo and progress in first phase or carry it either.
People may well laugh but if the injuries started to pile up, form was poor and ownership not sorted I could easily see him walking around xmas. I wouldn't blame him either because club is in such a structural mess.
Last edited:
I agree, especially because the narrative is that its all his fault and he's starting to be pictured as some sort of buffoon.
United are trying so hard to constantly play on the break (transitional play), that they concede so much possession. We hardly ever dominate games with 60+ possession. By the very nature of this fact, we will concede a lot of chances. Not to mention how much needless energy we spend pressing, tracking back or frantically defending, which we could be doing quite a lot less when we actually control the ball.
Over the course of 38 games, it's almost impossible to sustain this style of play to the consistent level that will win you a league title.
Sure, you might win a cup or two, or even the Champions League by playing like this. Everything can happen in knock-out games, and the luck of the draw dictates a lot in such competitions.
But if we want to become a dominating, consistent side that can challenge for the league title every season... We need to implement a possession-based style. Less high risk, more control with calculated risks.
In my opinion, we can't play this style of football like City, Arsenal and Brighton, because several of our "best" players are high risk takers, and not particularly press resistant or adept when it comes to keeping the ball and circulating it. Players like Bruno and Rashford in particular. They really suit a counterattacking side a hell of a lot more.
I really like Ten Hag and want us to succeed with him at the helm. But when he says that he wants to keep pushing this transitional style, and players like Bruno and Rashford are his key players... It honestly worries me, a lot. I don't think we will ever win the Premier League with players like Bruno and Rashford - and no less with a transitional style of play that will happily concede possession to constantly try those impossible Bruno Hollywood passes all the time. And I especially don't think we will ever win the league with Rashford. He is quick, and has a decent finish. That's it. He is not a team player, nor is he a system player. Bruno could perhaps be coached to make better decisions. But you can't teach a player to be a lot more press resistant than what they naturally are. So this deeply worries me.
Despite what people say, our first 11 and bench are pretty decent. We can scrape by and finish within top 4/5, like we seem to be doing every other season. We can manage this just by the sheer quality of some of our players. But that's the ceiling, and I don't see how that ceiling can be broken through until we shift to a more possession based style, whilst also removing players who don't fit the bill for that playing style -- no matter how "good" they are in other areas.
Just my personal opinion.
Over the course of 38 games, it's almost impossible to sustain this style of play to the consistent level that will win you a league title.
Sure, you might win a cup or two, or even the Champions League by playing like this. Everything can happen in knock-out games, and the luck of the draw dictates a lot in such competitions.
But if we want to become a dominating, consistent side that can challenge for the league title every season... We need to implement a possession-based style. Less high risk, more control with calculated risks.
In my opinion, we can't play this style of football like City, Arsenal and Brighton, because several of our "best" players are high risk takers, and not particularly press resistant or adept when it comes to keeping the ball and circulating it. Players like Bruno and Rashford in particular. They really suit a counterattacking side a hell of a lot more.
I really like Ten Hag and want us to succeed with him at the helm. But when he says that he wants to keep pushing this transitional style, and players like Bruno and Rashford are his key players... It honestly worries me, a lot. I don't think we will ever win the Premier League with players like Bruno and Rashford - and no less with a transitional style of play that will happily concede possession to constantly try those impossible Bruno Hollywood passes all the time. And I especially don't think we will ever win the league with Rashford. He is quick, and has a decent finish. That's it. He is not a team player, nor is he a system player. Bruno could perhaps be coached to make better decisions. But you can't teach a player to be a lot more press resistant than what they naturally are. So this deeply worries me.
Despite what people say, our first 11 and bench are pretty decent. We can scrape by and finish within top 4/5, like we seem to be doing every other season. We can manage this just by the sheer quality of some of our players. But that's the ceiling, and I don't see how that ceiling can be broken through until we shift to a more possession based style, whilst also removing players who don't fit the bill for that playing style -- no matter how "good" they are in other areas.
Just my personal opinion.
I'm not calling for his head am I ? Is it too much to ask not to be dicked around at home vs Wolves ? Is it too much to hope for a much better performance ?
Yeah it's very concerning he doesn't seem to value a possession based brand of football. This style like you say is a bit too chaotic to ever fully sustain a title challenge
I think there are a number of players he’s made clear are not in his plans that he wants out which are still here and it is effecting his and the squad’s juju. Looked seriously peeved today. How the feck Donny, Eric fecking Bailly and Dean Henderson are still here 6 days before the window closes is just absurd.
- Status