It really feels like not getting de Jong has really screwed up eth implementing his style, he had to go to casimero as the back up option but is not same type of player as de Jong who can play the deep lying playmaker role, I'm surprised this is not something eth has tried to revisit in terms of recruiting a deep lying playmaker
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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Not every team has dlp and they somehow manage. I saw this used as an excuse for ETH too many times here. He has to find a way.
I think this take is wrong personally. After watching this video it’s clear what EtH is doing and we’re on the right path. We’re not intense enough to do it at the moment and some of the players need to buck their ideas up
I don't buy this notion Casemiro was a replacement for de Jong. As you said, not the same player. I believe the idea was to have Casemiro and de Jong. Fred saying he knew about the transfer months before further backs this up.
I was always surprised we didn't have a back up of that type of player, but if you remember we went balls in on this and seemed 110% convinced he would join us because Barca wanted to sell. Perhaps having Erikson seemed suitable enough. Or perhaps the opportunity of signing him was too good to pass, we know EtH likes to sign players he knows, so was a last minute addition to our transfer plans because the opportunity arose and would have been a huge improvement.
Had we of signed De Jong I still think we would have got Casemiro and not Antony actually.
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My gripe with EtH is why didn't he look at other players who are similar to Frenkie De Jong. Of course it's difficult to find similar equally talented player but isn't it better to get a midfielder of similar mould(less talented obviously) instead of deciding to play in a completely new way?
Maybe because ETH couldn't find one to join us.. I still think he should have PM'd Yagami for the right player.
There is different tactics for the different phases of play, not two philosophies.
The difference with last season is we are pressing higher and playing a higher defensive line. Nothing else has really changed.
It’s not new, see my post above.
I’m hoping Mount’s injury will spur management into action and approve Amrabat signing (or someone else capable of doong Frenkie stuff).
The comment was saying the 2nd most points among current PL managers. This is bullshit as the stat it's depending on had Ole in it and he's no longer a PL manager.
You are the one inventing reasons for Ole inclusion in this stat as it means with no doubt that it's a bullshit stat.
Conspiracy? This stat isn't a trophy nor an achievement you know.
The absence of a striker hampers our ability to score goals. We could bring in the lovechild of Socrates, Confucius and Einstein to manage United and still be struggling to win matches.
And how do all these other teams play nice calm possession football without De Jong then? Come on, this excuse has to stop.
Said this before the window opened, the club's hierarchy is a mess. Murtough has to have a philosophy that proceeds the managers as the manager should match the club's philosophy when he was hired so there's unity and an alignment.
I'm repeating the same things all the time but the leadership at the club have no vision. They are out of their depth when it comes to this consensus and it doesn't take 4-5 years to assess the impact, there's already consequences of short term decisions they have made as you have highlighted above.
Fans can say it's only two games in but even if the team was successful it's not a sustainable model heading forward. The manager is a plethora of everything: coach, director of football minimalist, recruitment / scout, tactician all rolled into one responsibility. Can't blame the manager for this it's the club's issue of overindulgence and dreadful planning.
He must be fuming by the state he's found the club in. Honestly, we're effectively sending him into battle with one arm tied behind his back this season.
Anyone expecting any improvements on last season needs to rethink. Last season is the ceiling for the Glazers. That was success.
Anyone expecting any improvements on last season needs to rethink. Last season is the ceiling for the Glazers. That was success.
Arsenal will show that trio up for what it is.
So Mount is supposed to play like a deep lying playmaker when we are possession and like a high pressing player when out of possession? Is that what you mean by different passages of play?
I thought he was good find the best solution and combination with the attacking 3.
A tall Haller require a precise crosser and passer foot in Tadic. To serve Haller. On a conistent top service level.
But with United. I think he still struggle to find the best combination. Which players suit each others.
Both the attacking 3....and the midfield combination.
Again. I thought he was really good at finding the right players to each others and each position.
I think with United. From mine observing and analizing. He is still stuggle = not finding the right players yet. Players that suit each others.
Special the midfield trio.
Last season he loan Sabitzer as a nr.8. But ending up more as a nr.10 instead of Bruno.
And with a tall Weghorst and not a Tadic player to serve him. Big reason why Weghorst was struggling. Becuase Antony on the right is more a dribbler than a passer. Sancho too. And Garnacho too. Only Rashford have some decent crosser and assist passes from the wide sides.
So again. I think and believe is about to find the right players to each positions. That suit each others.
At Ajax i gave him credit for that. But with United i might take it back.
But one thing for sure. Casemiro is not a top and world class deep laying cm playmaker. Against team you want to dominate and control the ball. You need a top nr.6. A Busquets, Pirlo, Rodri, Gerrard and Lobotka.
A cm player that control the ball and game. Set up the tempo and slow it down when needed.
And with Eriksens has peak it and not on top level anymore. Lost of the top speed with and without the ball. There are 2 key areas United and Ten Hag can improve a lot.
If Mainoo or drop Bruno as the creative nr.8 are the answer. Then at this moment. I don't see other internal solutions. To solve the problem.
Then you have the external solution. By buying someone before the transfer window close.
A tall Haller require a precise crosser and passer foot in Tadic. To serve Haller. On a conistent top service level.
But with United. I think he still struggle to find the best combination. Which players suit each others.
Both the attacking 3....and the midfield combination.
Again. I thought he was really good at finding the right players to each others and each position.
I think with United. From mine observing and analizing. He is still stuggle = not finding the right players yet. Players that suit each others.
Special the midfield trio.
Last season he loan Sabitzer as a nr.8. But ending up more as a nr.10 instead of Bruno.
And with a tall Weghorst and not a Tadic player to serve him. Big reason why Weghorst was struggling. Becuase Antony on the right is more a dribbler than a passer. Sancho too. And Garnacho too. Only Rashford have some decent crosser and assist passes from the wide sides.
So again. I think and believe is about to find the right players to each positions. That suit each others.
At Ajax i gave him credit for that. But with United i might take it back.
But one thing for sure. Casemiro is not a top and world class deep laying cm playmaker. Against team you want to dominate and control the ball. You need a top nr.6. A Busquets, Pirlo, Rodri, Gerrard and Lobotka.
A cm player that control the ball and game. Set up the tempo and slow it down when needed.
And with Eriksens has peak it and not on top level anymore. Lost of the top speed with and without the ball. There are 2 key areas United and Ten Hag can improve a lot.
If Mainoo or drop Bruno as the creative nr.8 are the answer. Then at this moment. I don't see other internal solutions. To solve the problem.
Then you have the external solution. By buying someone before the transfer window close.
While I don’t think Ten Hag is entirely blameless in this situation but Christ you’ve got to wonder what he’s thinking right now. I can’t imagine a single manager would want to be in his place, just an endless wave of bad news, we surely have to be the worst run of the top clubs from a pure footballing perspective.
He’s spent 400 million in two summers to be fair. The biggest signing of which is the worse signing in the clubs history. He’s also shown extremely limited methodology in his transfers.
It’s interesting though because we’ve all seen this kind of posting when questions start getting asked of managers before. I always think it’s a worry when the cafe start trotting out the following..
“Manager not getting backed” (despite having clearly been backed)
“His first 30/40 games he had this record”
“He qualified for the CL”
“He inherited a mess”
“Jurgen Klopp came 8th”
We saw all of this at every point of the van Gaal, Mourinho and Ole reigns. It’s like some weird first stage of denial.
Yes actually, in the build up phase Mount or Bruno can drop deep occasionally to help out, which is happening. But Onana and Varane/Martinez are actually looking to progress the ball forward faster with a pass through the lines, thus bypassing the press.
Yes, we lost 3 nil
A shirt is a shirt, for every iconic number 7, we've had some trash ones, it doesn't reflect on the price we paid.
Yeah and Eriksen at 24 in this market would be going to Ceicedo money.
Good video. In summary, we need to bury our chances and track runners and the system would be looking a lot more effective
I will play Scott against Arsenal instead of Eriksen, but for Forest game this trio should be good enough.
Yeah strange because Mount definitely isn't that player capable of playing the role
I find it disconcerting that I have to explain a list to someone but here goes. Guardiola was 1st and ten Hag was second, there are no other current PL managers that have a better record than ten Hag, Ole was below ten Hag in the list. That makes the statement '2nd most points among current PL managers' correct. So the stat isn't bullshit.
It's very obvious to me why Solskjaer's name was included in the list, he was United's last full time manager and so it is valid to compare ten Hag's record to his as well as other current PL managers. You're the one who doesn't want to acknowledge a simple fact which is why you're attempting to dismiss the source by inferring some nefarious reason for including Ole's record (which doesn't affect the conclusion at all as he's below ten Hag in the list).
If this analysis is correct then the club is absolutely doomed, because Bruno and especially Rashford both prohibit any playstyle that isn't sitting in a mid or (preferably) low block and hitting teams on the counter. I'm willing to bet that agreeing to build the squad around those two players was a prerequisite for EtH even being hired in the first place and will be fir any manager hired to replace him.
I kind of doubt it's that bad but I guess we'll see. Getting Hojlund into the starting 11 and buying Amrabat to replace Casemiro in the starting 11 would help a lot.
It's asking too much of Mount. He is not capable of playing the role of a DLP.
Off-topic, but I can't wait for "bro" to die.
"Hey, bro!"
"Sorry, bro."
"Don't worry about it, bro."
I think he needs to be wary of Maguire and Henderson - part of the dressing room leaks during the Ole/Rangnick era along with Jesse Lingard. Now they are still at the club and they know they aren't in the managers plans. Compared to what they were doing when Henderson was No 2 and Maguire was playing every single game... I fear the worst.
That's pure speculation
The stat is bullshit regardless of Ole being in it or not. Him being in it is just the icing on the cake. It ignores a lot of context for pretty much every single person on it. For example, Klopp and Arteta came midway in season while the season was already ruined and didn't get a chance to have a transfer market before getting their jobs, unlike Ten Hag and Pep Guardiola.
Klopp got 76 in his first full season in charge in England after his first transfer market, but most of these aren't included in your "stat", it's the games he spent trying to steady the ship after getting the job midway in season with no market that are included here (yet he's only less than Ten Hag in your great stat by 6 points, by the way).
It's not an achievement for Ten Hag that he got more points in such period than Klopp and Arteta. It's just a desperate stat to try and prove things are improving despite the fact he hasn't done anything more than the previous managers United hired.
For the record, Van Gaal got 76 points in his first 40 games with United and Mourinho got 75 points, only 2 and 3 points respectively less than what Ten Hag achieved.
Edit : Actually, even if we want to include Ole in this, does these 40 games include his 18 games with Cardiff ? Or it's just his United games ? Because that would be half of it, for God's sake.
Nah, it's bullshit no matter how much I think about it.
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My 7 year old nephew has started saying "dude"Too much US Netflix I think.
Wait until they graduate from 'bro' high school before enrolling in 'my guy' university.
This stupid stat actually only counted Ole's first 40 games with United and not his games with Cardiff, as I checked his record and he did get 68 points in his 40 games with United. He got 12 points in his 18 games with Cardiff.
So this great stat says "first 40 PL games" but no one knows if it includes only current manager (as it includes Ole) or not (as they axed Mourinho and many others), and they're even removing games from managers to balance it out. They compared Ten Hag to Ole but not LVG or Mourinho because whatever.
But people believe this bullshit. Unreal stuff.
Well, I guess from now on "3rd and League cup" posts will have to add "2nd most points after 40 games of whatever I don't know" whenever we play like shit.
So this great stat says "first 40 PL games" but no one knows if it includes only current manager (as it includes Ole) or not (as they axed Mourinho and many others), and they're even removing games from managers to balance it out. They compared Ten Hag to Ole but not LVG or Mourinho because whatever.
But people believe this bullshit. Unreal stuff.
Well, I guess from now on "3rd and League cup" posts will have to add "2nd most points after 40 games of whatever I don't know" whenever we play like shit.
I think most United fans are not really clear on what's involved with rebuilding a squad and changing the tactics. They want success without the effort (which in this case is just suffering through watching some bad results) and panic when it doesn't happen, spending hours every day winding each other up on the internet about how the club isn't doing enough minute-to-minute to fix the situation. The thing is, firing the manager doesn't really move the club forward, it's just restarting the process and giving you a false sense of optimism and novelty while the exact same pattern starts over again, only now you've convinced yourself the previous manager is incompetent, and that we have to do the exact opposite of everything he wanted to do, necessitating yet another squad rebuild.
It is early to be writing off the club's transfer dealings since EtH got here, let alone nailing the coffin shut on the footballing project as a whole. We've got a couple of good recent examples of high-level English clubs that rebuilt their squads, changed the tactics (without the infinite money tap) and challenged for the title again: Liverpool and Arsenal, and it took both of them about two and a half seasons before they even began their legitimate title-challenging seasons.
Klopp started at Liverpool on October 8th, 2015, got 7 months get a look at the squad and train them, and finished 8th. They then finished 4th in 2016-17, 4th in 2017-18, and 2nd in 2018-19.
Arteta started at Arsenal on December 20th, 2019, got 5 months to get a look at the squad and train them, and finished 8th. They then finished 8th in 2020-21, 5th in 2021-22 and 2nd in 2022-23.
It's important to understand how useful it is to lower the expectations and suffer through a few seasons of mediocre results if necessary to implement a new style of play and drop some of the dead weight. It's not because it's easier on the players or manager, but because re-training the players to play in a different way takes several months and will result in dropped points. It's even harder when you're starting with a squad that only has 1 or 2 players who even have the skills to implement the new play style, let alone the knowledge and training. Lowered season expectations also allows the club to shop around for bargains or even leave a gap in the squad open between two windows if a good value transfer doesn't materialize.
Ten Hag was forced to mostly abandon his style change last season after two matches and play in a modified version of the tactics the players were comfortable with. He's clearly trying to go with new tactics this season, playing fairly directly to get the ball high up the pitch and counter-pressing when the team loses possession. Unfortunately some of the players don't seem comfortable with it yet or are lacking the attributes to implement it (Rashford, Bruno, maybe Shaw, maybe Casemiro).
That he wants to bring in players he's managed or is familiar with is understandable and a smart thing to do. Klopp did it and so did Arteta. If you want to change the style of play quickly, you absolutely need some players who know what they're supposed to be doing and have experience doing it. Brighton is a good example of a club that play very well with a number of players in the squad that aren't world class but know what they're supposed to do and are good at it.
The transfer strategy isn't the disaster people are making it out to be. A simple look at the ages of the players transferred in (at the time of transfer) so far shows they're not shortsighted attempts at improving the squad immediately at the expense of long term success. Casemiro and Eriksen are the only 2 older players and they're 30, but were clearly bought because we desperately needed midfielders to make an immediate impact, something which only the stupidest of you would deny.
Malacia 23
Martinez 24
Antony 21
Hojlund 20
Mount 24
Onana 27
They haven't all come good yet but it's still pretty early, and every big club has expensive transfer flops, with United being no exception. Guardiola and Klopp both have had expensive flops at their current clubs, Real and Barca both have paid staggering fees for players that ended up providing far less to the club than Maguire or Pogba did.
People just need to stop doomscrolling and do something else between matches for a bit. It's been over a decade since United was the kind of club from whom you could expect a comfortable title race, and well past time where we need to get used to not dominating every match. We've got a manager who looked well on his way to being one of the top managers in Europe to come in and build a top team, and he was never going to do it in 12 months.
It is early to be writing off the club's transfer dealings since EtH got here, let alone nailing the coffin shut on the footballing project as a whole. We've got a couple of good recent examples of high-level English clubs that rebuilt their squads, changed the tactics (without the infinite money tap) and challenged for the title again: Liverpool and Arsenal, and it took both of them about two and a half seasons before they even began their legitimate title-challenging seasons.
Klopp started at Liverpool on October 8th, 2015, got 7 months get a look at the squad and train them, and finished 8th. They then finished 4th in 2016-17, 4th in 2017-18, and 2nd in 2018-19.
Arteta started at Arsenal on December 20th, 2019, got 5 months to get a look at the squad and train them, and finished 8th. They then finished 8th in 2020-21, 5th in 2021-22 and 2nd in 2022-23.
It's important to understand how useful it is to lower the expectations and suffer through a few seasons of mediocre results if necessary to implement a new style of play and drop some of the dead weight. It's not because it's easier on the players or manager, but because re-training the players to play in a different way takes several months and will result in dropped points. It's even harder when you're starting with a squad that only has 1 or 2 players who even have the skills to implement the new play style, let alone the knowledge and training. Lowered season expectations also allows the club to shop around for bargains or even leave a gap in the squad open between two windows if a good value transfer doesn't materialize.
Ten Hag was forced to mostly abandon his style change last season after two matches and play in a modified version of the tactics the players were comfortable with. He's clearly trying to go with new tactics this season, playing fairly directly to get the ball high up the pitch and counter-pressing when the team loses possession. Unfortunately some of the players don't seem comfortable with it yet or are lacking the attributes to implement it (Rashford, Bruno, maybe Shaw, maybe Casemiro).
That he wants to bring in players he's managed or is familiar with is understandable and a smart thing to do. Klopp did it and so did Arteta. If you want to change the style of play quickly, you absolutely need some players who know what they're supposed to be doing and have experience doing it. Brighton is a good example of a club that play very well with a number of players in the squad that aren't world class but know what they're supposed to do and are good at it.
The transfer strategy isn't the disaster people are making it out to be. A simple look at the ages of the players transferred in (at the time of transfer) so far shows they're not shortsighted attempts at improving the squad immediately at the expense of long term success. Casemiro and Eriksen are the only 2 older players and they're 30, but were clearly bought because we desperately needed midfielders to make an immediate impact, something which only the stupidest of you would deny.
Malacia 23
Martinez 24
Antony 21
Hojlund 20
Mount 24
Onana 27
They haven't all come good yet but it's still pretty early, and every big club has expensive transfer flops, with United being no exception. Guardiola and Klopp both have had expensive flops at their current clubs, Real and Barca both have paid staggering fees for players that ended up providing far less to the club than Maguire or Pogba did.
People just need to stop doomscrolling and do something else between matches for a bit. It's been over a decade since United was the kind of club from whom you could expect a comfortable title race, and well past time where we need to get used to not dominating every match. We've got a manager who looked well on his way to being one of the top managers in Europe to come in and build a top team, and he was never going to do it in 12 months.
Bruno excelled with Portugal NT which is more possession based and definitely not pure counter attacking team. One of Portugal's best player in last World Cup.
It was another silly video "analysis".
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I don't believe for a second that he values possession here that much. Maybe he did at Ajax but his decisions last summer to buy Casemiro, then Mount this summer as well as making Bruno his most important player alongside Rashford proves otherwise.
We're a top four team so by nature we'll have more possession than our opponents but vs the big teams, it wont happen, we will always be the team on the back foot just as we were last season.
I thought last season he adopted the half possession/half counter system because that was his best chance of making top four and that he would make the appropriate signings and sales to adopt a possession style.
Compared to Ole, we are quite a bit better in possession but way worse in the counter attack. Take away Casemiro and Martinez and I doubt its a significant upgrade from Ole. I do believe he's a far better coach but some of his decisions regarding players and setup away from home is seriously holding him back.
He needs a strong DoF with a clear plan more than anyone. A bit like LVG who was a great coach but absolutely dreadful with knowing the players needed for his system.
We're a top four team so by nature we'll have more possession than our opponents but vs the big teams, it wont happen, we will always be the team on the back foot just as we were last season.
I thought last season he adopted the half possession/half counter system because that was his best chance of making top four and that he would make the appropriate signings and sales to adopt a possession style.
Compared to Ole, we are quite a bit better in possession but way worse in the counter attack. Take away Casemiro and Martinez and I doubt its a significant upgrade from Ole. I do believe he's a far better coach but some of his decisions regarding players and setup away from home is seriously holding him back.
He needs a strong DoF with a clear plan more than anyone. A bit like LVG who was a great coach but absolutely dreadful with knowing the players needed for his system.
Have our tactics changed a little this season? Don’t get how we go from looking very solid defensively last season to looking like we’ll concede every time the opposition comes at us.
Anyone else think he won’t last the season here? I think we will struggle and the players will do what they did before and down tools.
I like ETH and think he’s our best manager post SAF, but he will be judged on results and purchases, rather than a league cup. I’m not seeing any improvement since we won the cup and were fortunate to finish top 4 given how poor other were.
I like ETH and think he’s our best manager post SAF, but he will be judged on results and purchases, rather than a league cup. I’m not seeing any improvement since we won the cup and were fortunate to finish top 4 given how poor other were.
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