How so?
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Um, no, it simply means AWB had the ball more often (no surprises there) so he played more passes. If you're gonna compare stats you at least need to compare them with like for like.When others are stinking up the place, Donny deserves a chance to prove himself. End of.
Its not really that difficult to see that people dont really care about about donnys career, its more that the team is playing poorly and a large part of that is our dysfunctional midfield.He doesnt have the energy/ball winning of McT/Fred, not a better DLP than Matic, nor more creative than Bruno/Pogba. But lets not go into whether he is better than them all.
What's more interesting to me is people worrying about his career etc over Man Utd. Lets be honest here, VdB has basically replaced Pereira in the squad. If VdB was sold, it would probably be Pereira there instead of him.
I'd rather have VdB as a squad player. Not every player has an equal role in the squad, people need to understand this. Imagine someone saying "Why isnt Wes Brown playing more, he really should move to another club". Why would you sell your squad players? He gets paid to perform when required for us, he's not a starter. First time I've seen players worrying about a bench player's career, I couldnt care less
A lot of people have been desperate for us to sign a good midfielder for some time si the fact that our most recent signing isnt getting any gametime is inevitably a bone of contention when fred is stinking up the place
Given most of the reports over the summer stated we needed to raise funds in order to buy a dm, we should have sold him on if he is barely going to feature. Its all to easy to see him continuing to get very little action then getting sold for next to nothing in a couple of years
Think it would have benefited all if we had allowed him a loan to Everton (even if it had just been until Jan) We could have seen how he would perform week in week out in the EPL.
Poor situation all round.
Poor situation all round.
What? van de Beek was subbed at half time when we were still one goal ahead. I don't get what you're saying.
We should've lost against Villa because they had far more chances. Sure you could say we should've scored the penalty but then they SHOULD'VE scored their chances. They had more chances than us (including our missed penalty) = we should've lost to Villa. Just like we should've lost to Villa Real last night or would you argue we deserved to win that one too?
He doesnt have the energy/ball winning of McT/Fred, not a better DLP than Matic, nor more creative than Bruno/Pogba. But lets not go into whether he is better than them all.
What's more interesting to me is people worrying about his career etc over Man Utd. Lets be honest here, VdB has basically replaced Pereira in the squad. If VdB was sold, it would probably be Pereira there instead of him.
I'd rather have VdB as a squad player. Not every player has an equal role in the squad, people need to understand this. Imagine someone saying "Why isnt Wes Brown playing more, he really should move to another club". If we can have a decent player like him on the bench for 15-20 games a season, I'm happy about it. He gets paid to perform when required for us, he's not a starter. First time I've seen players worrying about a bench player's career, I couldnt care less
Well problem is little more than that. You expect squad player to be playing when your main players are injured. At this point, I dont think Ole would play him even when Scott/Fred is injured. Midfield is one area where we dont have any squad depth. And VDB is much better player than Pereira and I really think VDB/Fred would work but I am not certain on Pereira/Fred.
Ole does not trust Pogba enough in the CM role so he has to play 2 of Matic/Fred/Scott. And if one of them is injured we dont have any backup so why not rotate. Its not like we have world beaters in our CM. Most of our CM does side-way/back passing anyway.
Sometimes a player does not have what is needed to the team but he can develop with run of games. And he should be given an opportunity. Its not like he plays in the business end of the football like a Striker/Winger where he needs to bag assists/goals. He just have to do a equal/better job than Fred/Scott. Agreed, Ole might know better than all of us and watching him in training etc., but it is frustrating that he is the only player who in the squad who is getting this treatment and if you consider Midfield is the most weak part of our team, it is even more annoying.
On top of that if that was in Ole's mind all along, he should have been loaned out and we should have got bought/or on-loan some one who can play in the midfield. If he is not reliable to play in our relatively easy starting fixtures , he would not be trusted in our coming tougher ones.
I always think he was bought to replace Pogba, but Pogba ended up not leaving due to the pandemic. Pogba also ended up being shifted to the left, or to the position beside the holding midfielder because of Bruno.
For him to play more regularly, he either has to challenge Fred, which means that he will not be able to venture forward anymore but sit in front of Varane and Maguire, and I am not sure if he will enjoy this position. Everyone during the Young Boys and West Ham was telling him to get forward more often, and yet, the players tend not to pass him as often as Pogba or even McTominay when they make late runs to the penalty area.
Currently whenever he plays, he will play beside the holding midfielder, but that will either dropping Pogba or moving him to the left. Pogba on the left means that the forward line is not as explosive without Rashford/Sancho, and I don't think the team can drop Pogba (we can only rest him, but not drop him).
I think the situation with him is that he can play mainly in two positions only, that is the AMC or the MC position, but the players that are in direct contention with him are Bruno, Pogba and even Lingard at AMC.
It is a tricky situation for him.
For him to play more regularly, he either has to challenge Fred, which means that he will not be able to venture forward anymore but sit in front of Varane and Maguire, and I am not sure if he will enjoy this position. Everyone during the Young Boys and West Ham was telling him to get forward more often, and yet, the players tend not to pass him as often as Pogba or even McTominay when they make late runs to the penalty area.
Currently whenever he plays, he will play beside the holding midfielder, but that will either dropping Pogba or moving him to the left. Pogba on the left means that the forward line is not as explosive without Rashford/Sancho, and I don't think the team can drop Pogba (we can only rest him, but not drop him).
I think the situation with him is that he can play mainly in two positions only, that is the AMC or the MC position, but the players that are in direct contention with him are Bruno, Pogba and even Lingard at AMC.
It is a tricky situation for him.
Another fan who looks at livescore and not the match...we shouldn’t have beaten ANYONE this season bar Leeds. No one, not one single performance you would say deserved a victory. We were pretty shit against a poor Newcastle side too.
Stop looking at results and think about performances. If we get the performances right, the results look after themselves more often than not. Performance wise we have been shite for 2 years bar playing on the counter. McFred have played a big role in that and now that the rest of the squad has improved and the bench is now strong there is nothing else to explain why we are so shit to watch (bar no patterns of play but I wont go there!) McFred are the common denominator accross our shitness 2 years ago and our current shitness (in scientific terms). McFred = good out of possession...shit in possession...means the majority of our games we have a very ineffective midfield WITH the ball. That just won’t work.
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I really believe there's a fantastic player in there. That Ajax Champions League run he was soooo good. Absolutely destroyed Spurs in the first leg. I will simply not make a judgement on him until he is under a much better manager and proper coaches. Problem is there's a big chance he'll go in January if Ole is still here.
Wonder if Ole is gonna pull out the Matic/VDB midfield against Everton like in the preseason.
If he wont get a start soon he is out in January
If he wont get a start soon he is out in January
Because he's doesn't contribute at all to the team when conceding 2 goals and he contribute to the team when they scored a goal.
Win and lose as a team is hogwash in this context because it doesn't really say whether he deserve to get dropped by Ole
Performances are subjective.
You have your own views, I have mine.
Please don't claim things you know nothing about.
We haven't been brilliant in every game but we deserved to beat Leeds, Newcastle, West Ham in the league. Of that only a fool or a person looking for support of their viewpoint would deny.
Every metric and stat also points towards supporting my viewpoint, but of course you may think otherwise.
Oh come on, what's this type of argument? "If only Bruno has scored a penalty", "if only Bruno's 40 yard screamer hit the net", "if only Fred played like prime Zidane". We lost, no excuses. We also weren't the better team either for you to call us unlucky. What about the chances West Ham, Villa, Newcastle, etc had? If only they've scored their chances... We lost. It's as simple as that. We haven't looked convincing in any game so far apart from the Leeds one and the second West Ham game.
Fred has been a starter throughout this entire season. McTominay has already gotten more minutes than Donny even though he has been injured for the majority of the season. Not only that, but he has been playing like absolute shit and he is still starts every game. What's your explanation for that?
Every metric of the Villareal game suggests it was even,
I thought we had the second half, they had the first.
I would say a draw would have been fair, but with Ronaldo in your team it will always tip the balance.
The Villa game I thought we should have won also, it wasn't a great performance but taking any viewpoints out of the equation we didn't play well enough to win, but again maybe a draw would have been fair.
See, this is where I draw the line in our conversation.
Its obvious you have your viewpoint and that's fine, but when it's a bitter viewpoint and you can't see past your own rose tinted glasses then we go no further.
He hasn't been poor, he's been very effective, hence the winning percentage with McT being higher than without him.
I implore you to watch the games with an open mind rather than one whereby you try to make things fit to your viewpoint.
You might enjoy them more that way, you never know!
That we should've won doesn't mean it's an acceptable performance. You're not a topclub if you don't strive to dominate the smaller clubs. So a small victory over teams like Villa shouldn't be enough.
McFred is a symptom of Ole's play to not lose mentality, which is the same reason VDB isn't playing. Safety first and then maybe some individual masterpiece will let us win.
Yeah, but their context was slightly better than yours. It was like for like. One midfielder compared to the one we're comparing. Sure, different games but a lot closer than a defender to a midfielder. Scott isn't suited to this roll end of. Certainly not with someone as indisciplined as Pogba there. But then again, I've seen Pogba be disciplined too, so I imagine it's on Ole that Pogba ventures so far forward. If it's about unlocking a low block then Donny and Matic are better and I'd like to see both given more of a chance.That was my point I was making
Stats without context are next to useless.
It's fair enough to question why the feck we bought him in the first place - but it's not like we bought an established world beater who has been reduced to infrequent cameos because we've no idea how to use him properly.
Comparing him to the likes of Veron (as some have done) is absurd. He's never done anything of note beyond the very particular system he played in for Ajax.
It's more than possible that he's incapable of taking the step up from being a well suited system player to being a genuine, no-question-about-it top player.
(A.k.a. Kagawa syndrome. Except Kagawa was much more of a "big" signing than Donny in terms of his actual reputation at the time of the transfer).
Comparing him to the likes of Veron (as some have done) is absurd. He's never done anything of note beyond the very particular system he played in for Ajax.
It's more than possible that he's incapable of taking the step up from being a well suited system player to being a genuine, no-question-about-it top player.
(A.k.a. Kagawa syndrome. Except Kagawa was much more of a "big" signing than Donny in terms of his actual reputation at the time of the transfer).
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Donny is a good player but it's hard to assess his performance because West Ham were so ordinary
Wow I have no idea he had that many minutes.
Tbh I can't remember a thing he did that stood out from my memory than his first goal here, the moment he decided to pass backward while Rashford was bursting forward with a fecking huge space ahead against Leizpig last season. And the instance he was chasing an Istanbul player and the more both run the further that player got away from him. For the entire 1597 minutes he had here.
We deserved to beat Newcastle by the end but they had some good chances earlier on that they didn't make the most of (from memory). We did not deserve to beat West Ham, except in the Cup when Donny played and we played much much better but our forwards let us down. RIght now we do not control any games because our midfield isn't functioning. That West Ham game with Donny and Matic was a functioning midfield and that's the difference. Play like that with a midfield that works and we'll win more games than not. Unlike now, where all bets are off and we're lucky to have the luckiest manager in the world. Case in point, last night.
Now break it down by game and date please?
This forum is so weird, some of you are so invested in trying to prove he's had chances when it's just a fact he has never had a run. No one knows if he would be great or terrible for us but there's not point pretending he's had a lot of meaningful minutes just to win some online debate.
FYI churlish means rude
So...In the gospel according to you...every (so far Unquantified) stat and metric proves that out of 9 games this season, all against 2nd and 3rd tier opposition ( being that City, Pool,Chelsea,Bayern, PSG etc would be considered top tier)... Man Utd deserved to win 3. 1/3. At that rate, we would not qualify out of any CL group, we would get knocked out of every cup by the 4th round and finish the league mid table.
Notwithstanding the fact that at a push, you could say we deserved to win against Newcastle but it wasn’t as the score line suggested and we certainly didn’t deserve to win any match in which you rely on an86th minute winner and a penalty save in the dying seconds- we are dragging ourselves over the line and all the evidence, that being a pair of eyes, points to me being correct. While performances may be subjective, there is always very clear cases of good and bad football. You might hate pep but those fukers play good football. We on the other hand, look clueless most of the time. No poxy metric needed.
You may have a different opinion though.
Guessed wrong, just more interested in Utd and don't get why DVB, might be wrong but I'm guessing most on here have never watched him play a full league game for Ajax would create such an issue. I honestly think if McFred played well against West Ham's B team, most on here would say, that's their level.
It's baffling. How anyone can say he has had a chance is beyond me. When he does play, which is rare especially in the league, it doesn't matter how well he does he gets benched for the next game. He was one of our best players last week in the Carabao cup and hasn't played a minute since. Feel really sorry for him and will be gutted when he inevitably goes in January or the summer. He could do a good job for us. I don't get it.
If by they had the first half, you mean they should have scored 5 goals, then yeah I'd agree. Anyone with eyes watching that could see they should've scored at least 3 goals but for amazing De Gea saves and terrible finishing. They had, I would say 6 golden opportunities. Our opportunities (no way near as golden) came from long balls into the box. This despite us having Pogba basically desert the midfield to join in the attacking play. I've looked at the metrics myself and yeah they're even but tells nothing. If you want to look at stats, xG tells you more. Ours is a bit above 1 and theirs is almost 3. That's closer to the truth. Except that goals are not equal. Us having chances at the end that bump it up gives a false impression when they could and should've scored early, thus changing the entire game. Do you think we'd have got those chances if they were 3-0 up at half time? That game personified individual brilliance. Great corner from Bruno, unbelievable finish from Telles. Maybe 2 times out of 10 that happens if that. Goals change matches and we then went on to pressure them. But if they were 3-0 at half time, game over. Don't let stats tell you the story. Believe your eyes. That was one of the worst halves of football I've seen us play. McTominay was a huge part of that but Pogba left him out to dry. As soon as Matic came on and we had a more solid midfield we had the platform to play.
How many times have you watched DVB play for Ajax?
Never said anything about acceptable level of performances.
Just merely that we win more often than not with McFred in the middle.
I think McFred is a symptom of Ole realizing that he can't get us to defend properly with Pogba and Bruno in the same team. And now we have Ronaldo, it's even worse. We have a real problem. I love Pogba but I'm starting to feel that him leaving wouldn't be such a bad thing anymore. We have plenty of players to make up for him and we'd be a lot more balanced.
Sure, multiple 5 and 10-minute appearances add up, especially when supplemented by the odd 45 or a full 90 in a meaningless cup. Absolutely it's ok to judge him on that. Just like it would be ok to judge you from day 1 in your new job if you came in for an hour each week and only worked with the worst employees. I'm sure you'd excel. But let's not judge that, let's judge the terrible performances McTominay and Fred have given in recent times, despite being given chance after chance after chance. All we ask for Donny is a similar chance. Is it really that hard to understand?
We also had some very good chances to score, let's not gloss over that.
Taking stats out if the equation it was still equal for me. Even with stats it was near enough equal.
But again, it's subjective.
Not that I agree with the claim, but the claim that Donny just isn’t cut out for United’s style of play is a plausible argument. What our “style of play” actually is deserves its own thread, but I would argue that, given how poor we’ve been this season apart from the Leeds match, we need more of what Donny can do and less of what Fred can do. But reasonable minds can disagree on that.
But I’m not having the argument that Donny has been given enough chances. That’s just fukking absurd.
We’ve wasted one and it looks like it will be two seasons of Donny’s promising career. He’ll move on and do well somewhere, but we’ve let Edwin van der Sar down and it’s a pretty safe bet now that Ajax players will not be interested in joining United any time soon.
But I’m not having the argument that Donny has been given enough chances. That’s just fukking absurd.
We’ve wasted one and it looks like it will be two seasons of Donny’s promising career. He’ll move on and do well somewhere, but we’ve let Edwin van der Sar down and it’s a pretty safe bet now that Ajax players will not be interested in joining United any time soon.
I have a very different viewpoint yes, and stats also back my viewpoint up.
But football is subjective, I don't think we do look clueless, I think we actually play some good stuff at times.
There's no way a team finishes second and gets into a European final by being clueless, that's disingenuous and wrong.
Can we do better, yeah, I'm sure we can. Is VDB the answer? Not on the evidence he has provided so far.
Glad there is a new sense of fairness being offered to players and especially as some on here believe he's better than what we have given that they tune into the Dutch league and have seen him play. Sorry but Real wanted him, yep Man City wanted Fred too. Because people hate our midfield, for some unknown reason to me, this automatically means let's play anyone but them in there. These are the same people who want to play Lindelof as a CDM. Some people need to switch off the PS4.....
It's not subjective. Thinking we played well is subjective. Looking at chances and goals that should've been scored is not subjective. The goal we scored was not even a proper chance yet we scored it because we have very good players so we're always capable of pulling something out of the bag. Something that we see happen again and again. They battered us in that first half. They should've scored at least 3 goals last night and that's even ignoring the 2 on 1 against Dalot that they messed up. De Gea by himself made 3 incredible saves. How many saves did their keeper make? Had they scored their chances, our chances would've been moot. And it's not as though we even had that many chances. Sancho fell over on one but apart from that it was all, half chances or balls that almost made it. Theirs were one on ones, free shots on goal, guilt-edged. Don't let stats rule your eyes.
Donny and Edwin send their thanks and support. Donny says when he ends up at Everton, will you still be following his promising career.
You are right, footballers in Ajax will think, Man Utd feck playing with Ronaldo, Eddy, Rashford, Bruno, Varane...100k a week....feck you Ole, not signing cause of what you did to my mate Donny's career...
Seen a lot of comments like "If he cannot be a starter here, he should leave" which is just baffling to me.
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