He was one of our better players against Young Boys but automtically gets hooked after the red card. We dont need him to be a game changer, we have loads of those. We need someone who doesnt shit the bed with the ball at their feet in midifeld, but feels like its gone past that point anyway. Hard to play when when you know the manager has no belief in you at all. Wrong player for the wrong manager
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Feel genuinely bad for him, but can't really see a future for him here anyway.
Where do we play him? It seems there is a lot of disagreement about his best position.
Who are we benching to accomodate him?
It seems injuries is his only real way to try and establish himself.
Where do we play him? It seems there is a lot of disagreement about his best position.
Who are we benching to accomodate him?
It seems injuries is his only real way to try and establish himself.
Pogs can in the right system but I agree, not ours. Off topic but I think Bruno plays to far forward and should drop back more to offer support defensively to the pivot
This wasn't the case the last time he played - it was probably the best midfield performance this season. But it didn't get him a place even in current extremely poor midfield situation, so I can hardly blame van de Beek for this reaction.
You could offer the same argument for players like Greenwood who will probably be benched when Rashford comes back to the left and Sancho on the right. On that note, you could say why bench a generational talent or a player who we paid 80m. Why pay Hendo 100k to be the back up GK or why ask Eddy to stay when he's not gonna start in front of Ronaldo......
Best midfielder against West Ham's B team in a trophy neither manager is bothered about...
no it nots like Greenwood or Sancho as they get plenty of game time in rotation. People say he doesnt do anything, then scoff when he plays well anyway dismissing the opposition.
Did you watch the Villa game on Saturday?
We're not exactly playing well without him and are seriously lacking creativity in midfield, this is exactly my point.
If our other midfielders were playing well then fair enough, you could understand Donny being ignored a bit more.
You can only beat what's in front of you.
It's not very often it happens. Where a player of perceived quality never gets a shot to prove himself. He's not really lit it up when he has played either, but part of that is down to him being given small oppurtunities. For me he's better on the ball that everyone bar Matic, but Ole doesn't seem to put much emphasis of ball retention.
It's likely more down to how Ole wants to play and who he wants to play. DVB just doesn't fit into it. He'll only play if 3 out of Fred, McT, Pogba and Matic are injured or out, any 2 of them are available he'll not play. McT just came back from injury and he's straight in there, 3 games in quick succession. Not even a hint that he'd be eased back in. That midfield 3 last night was a total mess. Matic was put in last night to steady the midfield late on and Fred comes on at left back. That just shows who Ole's first choices are.
We played B team as well, with Juan feckin Mata in forward line. Anyway, I don't understand why would you downplay this situation. We'd be glad if Fred/Pogba/McTominay put in a performance like that against that "West Ham's B team" basing on this season performance.
I guess you don't like giving player a chance because "they only played in a cup nobody is bothered about".
All highly subjective stuff there without an ounce of actual evidence to back it up.
You and others keep saying he should be allowed to leave, yet we are short in midfield, and the only realistic option for him from what I know were loan bids.
Had someone coughed up the cash then he would have probably gone, so we would then have the money for a replacement.
As for his situation now, he should strive to break into the first eleven as he ain't going anywhere until January, and even then I doubt we'll let him leave without a suitable replacement.
So far he hasn't offered anything more than Fred or McT or even Matic in the small amount of game time he has got. Whether that would change given more game time is debatable but currently he isn't deserving of that time over the other choices.
I agree tbh. I think the big thing that Lingard has shown when he's come on is the benefit of having someone who will actually just be sensible with the ball and keep it moving and isn't always just looking for an instant killer pass (Bruno/Pogba) or is too head down (Greenwood). I've never been a big fan of Lingard but I can see the benefit that balance can bring in the right moments and I think we would have similarly benefitted from having more balance in the middle then we were getting from Bruno and Pogba playing together (although I do also think a significant part is tactically what we're doing as well). I think VDB's style from what I've seen can be a good balance there.
You're changing the argument.
This argument started because you blamed VdB on. Young Boys loss. I merely pointed out that he's not responsible on the loss since he's already subs off when w were leading.
You then indicate that United would lost anyway because he lasted 90 minutes in the West Ham match which United lost too.
Of course disregarding that VdB was considered by many as one of the best player in that match along with Matic, and he played most of that match with second string players.
Nobody actually knows what happened at training here, so you really can't say that's what actually happening.
Since you brought up stats, here a fun one.
Donny Van de Beek completed more pass and in a higher percentage in one half against YB than Scott McTominay did in 80 minutes against Aston Villa
The problem is you could honestly be forgiven for thinking Ole is setting out to sabotage this mans career, i know that's idiotic but it genuinely feels bad at times. Look at it from his perspective, I don't think he's any worse a player than Fred or McTominay, then McTominary comes back from injury and is straight on the team sheet, Fred is dropping absolute 0/10's and is rewarded with more playing time, VDB see's this from the bench all the while knowing the man who is doing this to him blocked him from moving to another club to actually play football, and because of that he's now been dropped from the national team too.
1. "He is a nothing player, he hasn't shown he's going to be any good" - I refuse to believe he is any worse than Fred or McTominay, he isn't, he's done the job on far bigger stages than them at a different club for starters, not only that but even the likes of Ronaldo would struggle to do anything if we kept bringing him on for 5 minutes for a game or 2 every month, how is he supposed to be any match fitness or show what he's capable of in our midfield.
2. "He can only play 10 and he isn't getting infront of Bruno" - True he isn't getting infront of Bruno, but then even Ole himself said he can play a 6 or an 8 in a recent interview, so if the manager believes he can play there then why doesn't he play him there
3. What blows my mind the most, is why we did not sell him in the summer, Everton were a club interested as well as others, again, Ole himself blocked the sale, to me it makes absolutely no sense, just judging from last night the fact he didn't bring him on at all means he doesn't think he has the ability to change a game, or even trust him, Ole has his favourites and you can see it in his squad selections, everyone else gets left in the cold. Why oh why then did we not sell him and then use that recouped money into buying a midfielder that we actually will use? It seems borderline negligent to me that if you are not going to address the midfield this summer at least use the midfield asset we bought, and if you aren't going to which looks like the case, sell him and use that money on a midfield asset you will use
I feel sorry for him because he clearly just wants to get on the pitch and he's basically having his career ruined and it sours my opinion of Ole because it just seems like piss poor squad management, its one thing to be a sub and play some matches every now and again but he doesn't even get that.
1. "He is a nothing player, he hasn't shown he's going to be any good" - I refuse to believe he is any worse than Fred or McTominay, he isn't, he's done the job on far bigger stages than them at a different club for starters, not only that but even the likes of Ronaldo would struggle to do anything if we kept bringing him on for 5 minutes for a game or 2 every month, how is he supposed to be any match fitness or show what he's capable of in our midfield.
2. "He can only play 10 and he isn't getting infront of Bruno" - True he isn't getting infront of Bruno, but then even Ole himself said he can play a 6 or an 8 in a recent interview, so if the manager believes he can play there then why doesn't he play him there
3. What blows my mind the most, is why we did not sell him in the summer, Everton were a club interested as well as others, again, Ole himself blocked the sale, to me it makes absolutely no sense, just judging from last night the fact he didn't bring him on at all means he doesn't think he has the ability to change a game, or even trust him, Ole has his favourites and you can see it in his squad selections, everyone else gets left in the cold. Why oh why then did we not sell him and then use that recouped money into buying a midfielder that we actually will use? It seems borderline negligent to me that if you are not going to address the midfield this summer at least use the midfield asset we bought, and if you aren't going to which looks like the case, sell him and use that money on a midfield asset you will use
I feel sorry for him because he clearly just wants to get on the pitch and he's basically having his career ruined and it sours my opinion of Ole because it just seems like piss poor squad management, its one thing to be a sub and play some matches every now and again but he doesn't even get that.
And we drew with Southampton and lost against Aston Villa without him being in the game. Your point being? How do you know he doesn't fit if he has never really played consistently? That's absurd. I can say with certainty that Fred and McTominay are not United-tier players because I've actually watched them play time in and time out and still not deliver. With Donny neither you or I know if he is fit or not because he has never been given a chance.
Er...no I didn't
I implied he played in that game which we lost along with another game which we also lost, I didn't say either was his fault.
Fun fact, AWB had as many passes as both of them combined in both matches, just in the Aston Villa game!!
By that metric we should play AWB in the middle.
Stats with out context are near enough pointless. If you wanted to talk stats, then VDB is near enough in the lowest percentage for every passing stat per 90 minutes, now again that's not taking any context into equation, so shows you the objectivity and selectivity of both football and stats.
It was a 7/10 performance, nothing to brag about tbh. His flaws were also just as visible, I dont(and the coaching staff also I guess) trust him to play in an important match in the midfield 2 and not get overrun. On the ball he is like Cleverley, and off the ball he rushes into challenges leaving his partner in midfield stranded. I think Ole and co have figured out he is just not good enough as a regular and that's that.
- His value is diminishing by the week
- We weren't looking to sell him
Ole said in his conference he trusts McFred, he also mentioned the stats and said we have had many good results with them.
So far without them both on the pitch we have lost both times.
We should have beaten Villa or at least not have lost that game.
Just the 1597 minutes so far. He's roughly played more than 70% of the 2242 minutes that Cavani has. The idea the lad "has never been given a chance" is churlish.
Exactly my point, had someone given us cash for him he wouldn't be here.
As for diminishing returns, I doubt Ole is too fussed by that and is happy as long as VDB stays professional.
There's really not many commanding DMs about that are obtainable for small amounts of money unless you take a gamble.
He should leave. Push for a transfer and go. He is a player who should not have come here. It's better for him to play in a team with a good progressive coach who plays good team football.
Bruno certainly doesnt ever play as an 8 and pogba is flawed in that role (really needs to play in a more balanced 3 which he will never do alongside bruno).
People want him to play because the team is playing poorly and midfield is incredibly dysfunctional. He could help bring more balance to the midfield and retain possession better.
He also seems to be judged to a different standard the fred or mctominay which is why people are frustrated
He figured that out after a few decent performances? Like, "that's it, even with regular game time this is his ceiling, let's continue playing Fred, McTominay and Matic" ?
Against West Ham our midfield was not overrun, against Young Boys and Everton (in each case vdB played in midfield two) it didn't happen as well.
It doesn't matter if Donny is or isn't the answer and long-term starter, we need some decent midfield option because well, we have none.
That doesn't make any sense. If you don't think he doesn't have anything to do with YB loss, why did you include him in your post?Er...no I didn't
I implied he played in that game which we lost along with another game which we also lost, I didn't say either was his fault.
You're talking nonsense again. Fred was on the pitch when we lost against Young Boys and it was precisely Donny's substitution that changed the game for the worse. We didn't deserve to beat Villa, they battered us and made us look like chumps. Against West Ham we also didn't deserve to win but somehow scraped by. With the exception of the Leeds game, McFred has been an absolute disaster in every game and we're quite frankly lucky to be in the position we are in. And that's a joke considering the opposition we've faced. Your double standards are also showing. For we to lose a game with McFred, well, it's just bad luck. But for us to lose a game with Donny - well, it's his fault. A little hypocritical, don't you think?
First off, Cavani has competition up top, Donny has none. Second, Cavani has 13 appearances of the bench, that's half of the games he has played. Donny has a whooping 15 sub appearances of the 19 games he has played for us. How can you expect anyone to showcase their skills in that kind of environment? Cavani also wasn't playing as much last year because he was having problems with injuries. What's the reason for Donny not playing?
He doesnt have the energy/ball winning of McT/Fred, not a better DLP than Matic, nor more creative than Bruno/Pogba. But lets not go into whether he is better than them all.
What's more interesting to me is people worrying about his career etc over Man Utd. Lets be honest here, VdB has basically replaced Pereira in the squad. If VdB was sold, it would probably be Pereira there instead of him.
I'd rather have VdB as a squad player. Not every player has an equal role in the squad, people need to understand this. Imagine someone saying "Why isnt Wes Brown playing more, he really should move to another club". Why would you sell your squad players? He gets paid to perform when required for us, he's not a starter. First time I've seen players worrying about a bench player's career, I couldnt care less
What's more interesting to me is people worrying about his career etc over Man Utd. Lets be honest here, VdB has basically replaced Pereira in the squad. If VdB was sold, it would probably be Pereira there instead of him.
I'd rather have VdB as a squad player. Not every player has an equal role in the squad, people need to understand this. Imagine someone saying "Why isnt Wes Brown playing more, he really should move to another club". Why would you sell your squad players? He gets paid to perform when required for us, he's not a starter. First time I've seen players worrying about a bench player's career, I couldnt care less
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I get what you mean but surely you need different tools for different jobs. Fred and McTominay great for breaking up the play and providing lots of energy against good teams, while also protecting our defence. But when you come up against teams where you have most of the ball, you need someone more skillful to unlock it. And for that you need Matic and/or Donny. I just don't understand how people can say Donny isn't good enough when he's barely had a chance to prove himself and when he does come on having not played for ages, he either plays very well i.e. West Ham or does ok. And for me, that ok is better than a lot of the performances from Fred and McTominay. The reason Ole seems to progress with McFred is simply because he wants as many individually talented players on the field as he can. And he knows if he does this, we'll be left wide open so he needs that added cover. There's no balance.
Most of our transfers with Ole in-charge have been good but this is a bizarre one. Even when Pogba played in LM role, he could not get in 3-man centre midfield. Its not like we have Pirlo/Scholes in the midfield.Considering our current midfield, we just need a player who can keep possession, and not be static in the midfield. He should be rotated with Scotty/Pogba.
Its criminal not giving him chance. And he has every right to be pissed. We are playing only Matic/Scott/Fred for 2 man defensive midfield role. It wont work over the season. Matic cant play 2 games in a row with same intensity and Scott/Fred are well Scott/Fred. He should be playing more.
Its criminal not giving him chance. And he has every right to be pissed. We are playing only Matic/Scott/Fred for 2 man defensive midfield role. It wont work over the season. Matic cant play 2 games in a row with same intensity and Scott/Fred are well Scott/Fred. He should be playing more.
He is not a destroyer, he is not a deep lying playmaker, he is not a energetic ball winner, he is not a creative player. What is he?
I really dont see the hype, and why he deserves to play more than the others, atleast they have played well in huge games for us, and they have earned those appearances through their performances. Dont think Donny has earned that, he's been a 6/10 player most times I've seen him. Absolutely average.
I don't like VDB. In fact I think he has absolutely no stand out qualities. People talk about his technique but it is non existent as far as I think - his touch, passing, long passing, vision - everything is lacking. However, it is absolutely ridiculous how little game time we give some players especially VDB - Ole just doesn't trust that many players in a squad he has more or less built himself.
Because he played?
Be harsh to claim it's his fault, especially against YB but he was part of the team and you win as a team and lose as a team.
Makes perfect sense to me.
You brought up the point about cash
If it were an issue, we'd have look to sell (which we clearly weren't) and his diminishing returns are a problem if it was about money.If Ole thinks VDB is worse than McTominay it's not really a gamble to bring in a backup DM on VDB's perceived level.
For me the reason he doesn't play is because his best position is where Bruno Fernandes plays.
However he never gets dropped. VDB was bought when Pogba was looking likely to move and since he is still here, Pogba is the better CAM aswell.
Lingard has tend to come on for players like Sancho and Greenwood.
Either VDB goes this January, or he gets more game time post Pogba - but still kind of like a back up.
However he never gets dropped. VDB was bought when Pogba was looking likely to move and since he is still here, Pogba is the better CAM aswell.
Lingard has tend to come on for players like Sancho and Greenwood.
Either VDB goes this January, or he gets more game time post Pogba - but still kind of like a back up.
Some very highly subjective viewpoints on our games there.
We lost against Villa, we shouldn't have as Bruno missed a penalty.
The only other times we have lost this season McFred haven't been playing.
Not sure what's nonsense about that really?
That's absurd.
To answer your first question, our midfield doesn't need specialists. We have two of them: Pogba being creative and not offering much else, and Fred who is a very limited bulldog (destroyer). What we need is an all-round midfielder, who can do a bit of everything even if you can't tell what he excels at.
Let me ask you this, what in your opinion is the way to the first squad if not by having decent to good performances in B team?
I can name you a few posters who would cream themselves on this forum if Pogba played like Donny did vs West Ham (not that it was a great performance, but a good one at least).
And again, it's not like he can't get a game because we have fully functional midfield.
He'll look back on this time fondly, when he is starting for Southampton in a couple of years.
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