[The United]

@Stacks if his competition is good then yeah I'd agree but starting him over McT or Fred isn't a tough decision. Giving him a run of games, with this current midfield, should be piss easy

I think this would be the next logical thing if he wants to prove himself more to play more.

Although I have doubt that he would be able to play that deep without of course a very good specialist mobile DM behind or next to him. Tbf, could be said the same about every midfielders in this squad. Pogba or even Fred could be more useful and productive than he is even if we had one.

 

[kouroux]

If they are so wank he should be able to easily outshine them EVERY time but to me he doesn't

They really are that wank. It doesn't mean VDB is, as a result, that much better but only that he should feature more than he has at the very least. McFred are one the reasons we are a laughing stock

 

[Adam-Utd]

Ghost mode for him last night

28 touches
1 dribble
1 tackle
0 shots
0 key passes
0 interceptions
3 dispossessions
1 unsuccessful touch

Context is important. I'd imagine Ronaldo had similar stats too.

The team setup didn't help our attacking players at all. We sat back defensively for long periods of the game.

Both Ronaldo and Martial were zoning pressure in the middle of the pitch, Fred was asked to cover as a left midfielder, DVB to cover as the right midfielder. Sancho was double covering Danjuma with AWB.

Whenever we won the ball back, DVB was positioned in the right wing area (see heat map) is he the guy you want to be sprinting into the channels or trying to run with the ball to start a counter? god no.

Only once the substitutes were made and the key one in particular (rashford for martial) did the game really open up.

All I can say is it's like asking Carrick to be used as a shadow striker and asked to run channels, it just doesn't work.

DVB is a ball player, you need to play him in the deeper positions where he can use his passing, awareness and control to it's best.

I don't think we will ever see the best out of him as a 10 or wide areas. He needs to be given trust as a CM.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

I don't think we will ever see the best out of him as a 10 or wide areas. He needs to be given trust as a CM.

There is some truth in what you say in terms of the formation and pattern of the game but he played as a 10 or AM in all of Ajax's knockout games when they had that run in the CL. A run that basically got him a Ballon D'Or nomination. He went into ghost mode for Ajax plenty of times too.

 

[Terranova]

There is some truth in what you say in terms of the formation and pattern of the game but he played as a 10 or AM in all of Ajax's knockout games when they had that run in the CL. A run that basically got him a Ballon D'Or nomination. He went into ghost mode for Ajax plenty of times too.

But you have to remember that a 10 or AM at Ajax is basically an attacking nr 8. Not a real 10, due to Tadic being a false 9 in that setup.

 

[Adam-Utd]

There is some truth in what you say in terms of the formation and pattern of the game but he played as a 10 or AM in all of Ajax's knockout games when they had that run in the CL. A run that basically got him a Ballon D'Or nomination. He went into ghost mode for Ajax plenty of times too.

Completely different style though. It's not the position that's important.

Ajax won't ever be sitting that deep to defend, and if they did they won't be launching balls forward expecting him to chase after them. They build the ball up in a controlled manner, they'll push teams back into their half where their technique and quick passing starts to show.


Just look at the first half where he linked up nicely with Sancho down the right side, ok it didn't work out but it was probably our best attack of the half.

We've seen he has the ability to finish when in the box, he has great movement and awareness. The issue is getting to that point. United are awful at transitioning from winning the ball back to starting an attack. We only know 1 thing and that's whacking it forward and running.

Did you watch any of PSG v City last night? watching them both play out of a press from the back was majestic. Currently our team could barely ever string 3 passes together.

My point is yes he can play closer to the goal in a team setup to keep the ball, work it like a chessboard towards the opposition. If we wanted somebody to run and counter attack they should have played Lingard instead.

For me, playing him as a 10 in this team is completely pointless. He has to play in CM (and should have instead of Mctominay) until we can learn to keep the ball better and build attacks with more patience he won't ever work well there.

 

[KingCavani]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...Echobox&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1638018521

Donny van de Beek and Dean Henderson, who have not featured heavily this season, will be considered for moves which would allow Rangnick to freshen up a squad that has dropped into mid-table.

Tier 2 apparently.

Would be pretty bizarre if he’s not given a real chance although I was never convinced he’d be as perfect for Rangnick as some here. It’s possible Ole wasn’t the only one in the club who was low on him. Also would leave me thinking we’re not getting ETH if we sell VDB months before he arrives.

 

[OTRightWinger07]

VDB should shine under rangnick in fact he should shine tomorrow at chelsea.

 

[VanDeBank]

Invisible today. Sell.

 

[Terranova]

Atleast he's getting pity minutes again

 

[united for life]

Invisible today. Sell.

i doubt we can find someone who can deliver letters as good as he did today. Give him a new contract.

jokes aside, he should start instead of mctominay any day. We should not be defensive minded like that. This is not our identity, he needs a good run of games before writing him off

 

[Marcus]

When he came on, his touches were class. Definitely has a future with us.

 

[frostbite]

According to whoscored:

Chelsea 1 : 1 Man Utd
DVB 6.1
Fred 7.2
McTominay 6.8

Villarreal 0 : 2 Man Utd
DVB 6.0
Fred 7.1
McTominay 7.3

Man Utd 0 : 2 Man City
DVB 5.9
Fred 6.0
McTominay 6.3


No matter how bad Fred and McTominay play, DVB manages to get worse statistics! Why are people so certain that he will perform better than those two?

https://www.whoscored.com/Teams/32/Show/England-Man-Utd

 

[VanDeBank]

According to whoscored:

Chelsea 1 : 1 Man Utd
DVB 6.1
Fred 7.2
McTominay 6.8

Villarreal 0 : 2 Man Utd
DVB 6.0
Fred 7.1
McTominay 7.3

Man Utd 0 : 2 Man City
DVB 5.9
Fred 6.0
McTominay 6.3


No matter how bad Fred and McTominay play, DVB manages to get worse statistics! Why are people so certain that he will perform better than those two?

https://www.whoscored.com/Teams/32/Show/England-Man-Utd

I don't think he's better than Fred (or Matic), but McT wouldn't stand out at Burnley.

We use our eyeballs and see he tries to make himself available to receive the ball and doesn't need 5 touches to control it, only to pass it sideways.

That doesn't make him a good Man Utd midfielder, but deserving of a chance over Scotty and Jogba.

 

[frostbite]

I don't think he's better than Fred (or Matic), but McT wouldn't stand out at Burnley.

We use our eyeballs and see he tries to make himself available to receive the ball and doesn't need 5 touches to control it, only to pass it sideways.

That doesn't make him a good Man Utd midfielder, but deserving of a chance over Scotty and Jogba.

I am not a fan of McTominay and I think we should get someone better for that position. However, McTominay is tall and strong which is useful sometimes. Donny is not even that and I cannot see what exactly he brings to the team. He is not good in defense, he is not good in attack, what can he do? Except passing sideways? What is his position? He is weak and he can be pushed and dispossessed easily, I don't think that any team considers him as a threat.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

I’d give him a 10 for that crunching tackle on Lukaku alone. Binned him.

 

[Bestietom]

Always seems to be trying too hard to prove something hence he runs around like a headless chicken sometimes.
He would be better if he just relaxed and concentrated on his game. The fast and close passing that Rangnick will bring might suit him better, but he needs to settle down fast.

 

[BrilliantOrange]

I am not a fan of McTominay and I think we should get someone better for that position. However, McTominay is tall and strong which is useful sometimes. Donny is not even that and I cannot see what exactly he brings to the team. He is not good in defense, he is not good in attack, what can he do? Except passing sideways? What is his position? He is weak and he can be pushed and dispossessed easily, I don't think that any team considers him as a threat.

Hard to be a threat from the bench to be honest..

Looking at your criteria for Central Midfielders lets bring back Fellaini then.

 

[Giggsyking]

I am not a fan of McTominay and I think we should get someone better for that position. However, McTominay is tall and strong which is useful sometimes. Donny is not even that and I cannot see what exactly he brings to the team. He is not good in defense, he is not good in attack, what can he do? Except passing sideways? What is his position? He is weak and he can be pushed and dispossessed easily, I don't think that any team considers him as a threat.

Found Jose account in the caf.

 

[KingCavani]

According to whoscored:

Chelsea 1 : 1 Man Utd
DVB 6.1
Fred 7.2
McTominay 6.8

Villarreal 0 : 2 Man Utd
DVB 6.0
Fred 7.1
McTominay 7.3

Man Utd 0 : 2 Man City
DVB 5.9
Fred 6.0
McTominay 6.3


No matter how bad Fred and McTominay play, DVB manages to get worse statistics! Why are people so certain that he will perform better than those two?

https://www.whoscored.com/Teams/32/Show/England-Man-Utd

Whoscored's algorithm always punishes sub appearances. It's a poor metric. The Villareal game seems right though - VDB was anonymous.

I do think people overrate Donny/underrate McTominay and what they bring to the table - I think a lot of it is just the perception of the Scottish scrapper and the continental footballer. VDB for me has just always looked lost in the side, which isn't entirely his fault but I do think other players have adapted to the lack of coaching better than he has.

I'm not at all convinced he's a Ralf Rangnick player. Maybe he does turn him into what we hoped for but from what I've seen from RR's teams he likes athletic players who are very direct in their play and VDB really isn't either of those things. He's suited to an Ajax or Barcelona rather than a counter pressing style IMO. We'll learn a lot about him in the coming months and I do hope he proves me wrong but I can see Ralf preferring McFred in midfield and even Lingard as the alternative for Bruno.

 

[criticalanalysis]

Whoscored's algorithm always punishes sub appearances. It's a poor metric. The Villareal game seems right though - VDB was anonymous.

I do think people overrate Donny/underrate McTominay and what they bring to the table - I think a lot of it is just the perception of the Scottish scrapper and the continental footballer. VDB for me has just always looked lost in the side, which isn't entirely his fault but I do think other players have adapted to the lack of coaching better than he has.

I'm not at all convinced he's a Ralf Rangnick player. Maybe he does turn him into what we hoped for but from what I've seen from RR's teams he likes athletic players who are very direct in their play and VDB really isn't either of those things. He's suited to an Ajax or Barcelona rather than a counter pressing style IMO. We'll learn a lot about him in the coming months and I do hope he proves me wrong but I can see Ralf preferring McFred in midfield and even Lingard as the alternative for Bruno.

Can't disagree with pretty all you've said but the bolded bit is a bit harsh on DVB because he's barely had a chance to play to 'adapt' to whatever the mess it is we've seen under Ole! That's alway been the issue when judging DVB, he's not had enough game time period, especially when comparing how well he'd do in place of another player.

 

[Bobski]

His problem is that he is neither a typical creative 10 or deeper midfielder. He is an attacking midfielder whose strength is scoring rather than creating, a Dele Ali, David Platt, low level Tomas Muller, very much relies on a system to get the best out of him. He played well at Watford in an almost tucked in right midfielder with no defensive expectations role

That type of player is much less valuable out of a strong system as teams will always be able to find a more individually gifted player to give an attacking role to. He has to show he can play behind that type of player in deep midfield and not create huge imbalances in the team, fairly obvious that Ole and his staff didn't/don't see him as an orthodox midfielder. Too often he drifts out of the games, finds himself in positions where he can't receive a pass, people like to blame his teammates for this, but if you have played and trained with players for over a year and still can't adapt to what they are capable of they aren't the only ones failing.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

His problem is that he is neither a typical creative 10 or deeper midfielder. He is an attacking midfielder whose strength is scoring rather than creating, a Dele Ali, David Platt, low level Tomas Muller, very much relies on a system to get the best out of him. He played well at Watford in an almost tucked in right midfielder with no defensive expectations role

That type of player is much less valuable out of a strong system as teams will always be able to find a more individually gifted player to give an attacking role to. He has to show he can play behind that type of player in deep midfield and not create huge imbalances in the team, fairly obvious that Ole and his staff didn't/don't see him as an orthodox midfielder. Too often he drifts out of the games, finds himself in positions where he can't receive a pass, people like to blame his teammates for this, but if you have played and trained with players for over a year and still can't adapt to what they are capable of they aren't the only ones failing.

strongly disagree, he picks up brilliant positions and makes great offers or runs to create space. The issue is his team mates and if he is doing the right things then it is his team mates that are failing him. The positions he gets in to and finds himself in would make us a better team if we would just find him, which isn’t difficult but Fred and more so McT have a fear about passing through the lines and do often turn away from simple passes.
I mean just watch McT from the weekend. Hopefully this is something that Ralf will improve in the squad as many seem scared to pass forward centrally through the lines.

I do agree though that I think in a team based around more of a structure you’d get a better version of him but I think he’ll have a place in Ralfs line up it’s just who do you sacrafice for it out of Fred and Bruno or does McT get the bung.

 

[Bobski]

strongly disagree, he picks up brilliant positions and makes great offers or runs to create space. The issue is his team mates and if he is doing the right things then it is his team mates that are failing him. The positions he gets in to and finds himself in would make us a better team if we would just find him, which isn’t difficult but Fred and more so McT have a fear about passing through the lines and do often turn away from simple passes.
I mean just watch McT from the weekend. Hopefully this is something that Ralf will improve in the squad as many seem scared to pass forward centrally through the lines.

I do agree though that I think in a team based around more of a structure you’d get a better version of him but I think he’ll have a place in Ralfs line up it’s just who do you sacrafice for it out of Fred and Bruno or does McT get the bung.

He needs to get himself into positions where he can influence the game, and if the players around him aren't capable of picking out the eye of the needle passes to find you, adapt to what they can do.

Or continue to be anonymous and wait for Utd to get in players who can find him. At that point I doubt whoever is managing Utd will be thinking of building around Donny.

 

[Bebestation]

strongly disagree, he picks up brilliant positions and makes great offers or runs to create space. The issue is his team mates and if he is doing the right things then it is his team mates that are failing him. The positions he gets in to and finds himself in would make us a better team if we would just find him, which isn’t difficult but Fred and more so McT have a fear about passing through the lines and do often turn away from simple passes.
I mean just watch McT from the weekend. Hopefully this is something that Ralf will improve in the squad as many seem scared to pass forward centrally through the lines.

I do agree though that I think in a team based around more of a structure you’d get a better version of him but I think he’ll have a place in Ralfs line up it’s just who do you sacrafice for it out of Fred and Bruno or does McT get the bung.

I mean I agree with you.

VDB'S best ability to my eyes is his runs in to space that has outdone both the opposition and sometimes even his own team mates.

My worry is that with such a player that runs innto space - what we need is a proper CDM, which is only Matic. VDB leaving any sort of McFred leaves 2 midfielders in a CDM position open by themselves.

Just really need to replace Matic to let VDB play his game (and a few others).

 

[Andersons Dietician]

He needs to get himself into positions where he can influence the game, and if the players around him aren't capable of picking out the eye of the needle passes to find you, adapt to what they can do.

Or continue to be anonymous and wait for Utd to get in players who can find him. At that point I doubt whoever is managing Utd will be thinking of building around Donny.

Eye of the needle passes? Many a time it’s passes my gran could play off her swinger blindfolded. If you look in the McT thread there is a prime example of the rubbish we see often of these team mates shirking the correct and easy pass.

No one is also saying build around Donny, what they are saying is others need to improve there general ability. I mean even Sir Alex pulled up Carrick, Scholes Rooney and Giggs and told them if they couldn’t find van Persie he’d get people who could. Do you think he’d tell RVP to change to accomadate them not finding him?

 

[Marcus]

Key word in Ralf's presser was "control". Donny's time is now.

 

[Ali Dia]

The rebirth! It’ll be fun to see how he does if he’s given the correct amount of football

 

[Bobski]

Eye of the needle passes? Many a time it’s passes my gran could play off her swinger blindfolded. If you look in the McT thread there is a prime example of the rubbish we see often of these team mates shirking the correct and easy pass.

No one is also saying build around Donny, what they are saying is others need to improve there general ability. I mean even Sir Alex pulled up Carrick, Scholes Rooney and Giggs and told them if they couldn’t find van Persie he’d get people who could. Do you think he’d tell RVP to change to accomadate them not finding him?

Carrick, Scholes, Rooney and Giggs are some of the best and most creative passers of a ball that the PL have seen, if they are turning down difficult passes Fergie is right to have a go at them, because they have the ability to play them. Scott and Fred don't.

A question this brings out is why Bruno does not struggle to get on the ball when he is playing with these guys or why Donny has equally struggled to impact games when guys like Pogba and Matic have played with him.

What is Donny's responsibility?

Either way he might get a few starts now, or another manager might think he is less useful than other options. We will see.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

Carrick, Scholes, Rooney and Giggs are some of the best and most creative passers of a ball that the PL have seen, if they are turning down difficult passes Fergie is right to have a go at them, because they have the ability to play them. Scott and Fred don't.

A question this brings out is why Bruno does not struggle to get on the ball when he is playing with these guys or why Donny has equally struggled to impact games when guys like Pogba and Matic have played with him.

What is Donny's responsibility?

Either way he might get a few starts now, or another manager might think he is less useful than other options. We will see.

They maybe can’t spray 20-40yard passes like those mentioned but they can certainly play a simple 10-15 yard pass along the ground with next to no risk. They choose not to and Donny shouldn’t be held accountable for the lack of efficient coaching within the team.

Ragnick has come in today and had a press conference where he reinforced the point of Control over and over again. Donny is a player that will provide this more so than what Bruno has shown so far.

Your comparison with Bruno, I would say he doesn’t struggle as much to get on the ball as he rarely offers himself centrally where it’s busy.
He and Donny are two completely different players who in my opinion should play together. As each lack a bit of what the other has. But anyway, last night the ball arrived at Fred and his only option was back to McT after he was waiting and waiting and gesturing for Bruno or any of the front 4 to drop in to space. I’d wager Donny would have made the option for the easy pass for Fred or McT who knows if they would have taken it. But that is the basics of football and possesion/ keeping control of the game.

We’ll see how things pan out over the future but I would expect he has a future here and will hopefully prove many wrong.

 

[united for life]

If he doesn’t start today, he’ll surely need to seek a career elsewhere. For me, if under a new manager, he is still not trusted to start, then it’s over for him.

with that said, I hope he does start next to fred today

 

[Red Rash]

If he doesn’t start today, he’ll surely need to seek a career elsewhere. For me, if under a new manager, he is still not trusted to start, then it’s over for him.

with that said, I hope he does start next to fred today

I hope Donny starts too but I don't think this game necessarily will be make or break.

Even if he starts on the bench this game but receives assurances he gets introduced over the coming weeks, it could be enough to tempt him to stay. Id assume a player like Donny is exactly the kind of player Ralf would love.

 

[united for life]

I hope Donny starts too but I don't think this game necessarily will be make or break.

Even if he starts on the bench this game but receives assurances he gets introduced over the coming weeks, it could be enough to tempt him to stay. Id assume a player like Donny is exactly the kind of player Ralf would love.

what I meant is that I hope Ralf is eager to start him and give him a chance in the midfield position. He shouldn't be a back up to Bruno. Jesse can be that. I hope he is viewed as someone who can be a creative link between defense and offense. We saw that during the watford game when he came on. We need to grow him into that role. However, if Ralf goes with the "good old McFred combination" then it means VDB isn't in Ralf's plans as a regular starter.

 

[SonyaCross493]

Everyone is expecting This is Donny's big chance under Rangnick now. Is he ready to take it with both hands if he's handed a start today? I hope so.

I'll be absolutely shocked if he doesn't start today personally.

 

[AneRu]

If he doesn’t start today, he’ll surely need to seek a career elsewhere. For me, if under a new manager, he is still not trusted to start, then it’s over for him.

with that said, I hope he does start next to fred today

New manager, yes but he has had just one session with the team and he wouldn't be looking to make drastic changes before he has a chance to really assess the squad. I think, judging by his interview, he will be cautious in terms of changing style and the starting eleven. If in three weeks time he isn't getting a fair chance then by all means he can demand a move.

 

[united for life]

New manager, yes but he has had just one session with the team and he wouldn't be looking to make drastic changes before he has a chance to really assess the squad. I think, judging by his interview, he will be cautious in terms of changing style and the starting eleven. If in three weeks time he isn't getting a fair chance then by all means he can demand a move.

Fair point. However, I'm hoping, Donny had made an impression in training. Nothing drastic, just VDB for McTominay

 

[Luffy]

The month of December will point to whether we’ll have de Beek sale in January.

 

[Bwuk]

Bench apparently today

 

[lenny_1248]

Bench apparently today

water is wet.

 

[horsechoker]

Bench apparently today

Rangnick Raus!