McBrooks you mean
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I rate DVB as a pretty good CM/AM, and think he can definitely feature regularly for a club like United if utilised correctly in the right formation.
I can understand how he struggled for regular PL games last season in his first year here. However he's now fully acclimatised, and has bulked up, and is looking much more capable of playing as one of the two deeper CM's - although not the most defensive one, so still needs someone like McTominay or Matic next to him.
I'd like to see him be given more opportunities to battle Fred for that role alongside a McTominay or Matic, rather than DVB just be a bit part player mostly only used in a much changed, weakened team. He's looking more ready for that now - physically and mentally.
I can understand how he struggled for regular PL games last season in his first year here. However he's now fully acclimatised, and has bulked up, and is looking much more capable of playing as one of the two deeper CM's - although not the most defensive one, so still needs someone like McTominay or Matic next to him.
I'd like to see him be given more opportunities to battle Fred for that role alongside a McTominay or Matic, rather than DVB just be a bit part player mostly only used in a much changed, weakened team. He's looking more ready for that now - physically and mentally.
I don't think Donny is being judged right. He plays like 1 game every month. Not even one game, 5 to 20 mins at best. And then everyone bases their opinion on that. Answer yourself this, how good do you think you'd be at your job if, from your very first day, you only came in once a month and had to work with the worst employees in the office? It's nuts that VDB is judged against Fred who plays every game, as though judging them side by side is a fair comparison. Imagine how bad Fred would be if he only played as often as Donny? In fact, don't, you've seen it before with Jose. The fact is for Donny to come in and play like he did on Wednesday, having barely played a game and with a bunch of players who've hardly even played together, speaks volumes for his potential. And the only way any of us is actually going to see if that potential is just potential is if he is given a chance. And he 100% deserves that chance. For anyone to say different right now when Fred has played so poorly over the last games is madness.
Donny looks to be better than current Fred in almost every way. The only thing in Fred's favor is that he seems to work well with McTominay. Individually he's less composed, less technical, and less skilled. The fact that he came out and said he needed to work on things is a testament to that. Donny makes great runs but is never seen (probably because players aren't used to him) And if Greenwood had scored from his pass, he'd have been lauded. All he needs is a run in the team to help him get familiar and to work on his positioning. But he has to be the unluckiest player ever. He gets injured before the Euros, injured when he could've replaced Pogba, is replaced because of AWB against Young Boys and now we're out of the Carabao, he's not even gonna get a chance there. The way he has been treated is an absolute disgrace. And one of the things I'm most upset with Ole for. His stubbornness will be his downfall.
Donny looks to be better than current Fred in almost every way. The only thing in Fred's favor is that he seems to work well with McTominay. Individually he's less composed, less technical, and less skilled. The fact that he came out and said he needed to work on things is a testament to that. Donny makes great runs but is never seen (probably because players aren't used to him) And if Greenwood had scored from his pass, he'd have been lauded. All he needs is a run in the team to help him get familiar and to work on his positioning. But he has to be the unluckiest player ever. He gets injured before the Euros, injured when he could've replaced Pogba, is replaced because of AWB against Young Boys and now we're out of the Carabao, he's not even gonna get a chance there. The way he has been treated is an absolute disgrace. And one of the things I'm most upset with Ole for. His stubbornness will be his downfall.
Ole isn't ruthless but he is sentimental and stubborn. It's early doors, but we now have a fully equipped squad to go places. I kind of got it when one of our stars wasn't playing well and he looked at the bench and thought, how can I take him out and replace him with him? But now we're fully packed there are no excuses. He needs to be far more bold and far more ruthless as you say. We need to rotate when the time is right, to keep the rest of the squad happy and fit. But don't just replace people to be fair. It should be on fitness and form. Or if the opposition allows it. Most importantly though, if a player isn't performing he needs to be subbed or not in the first eleven. Simple.
I'm not even convinced that McFred works all that well. The whole of McFred is greater the sum of their parts (no jokes, please) or however the phrase goes, but all that the two players give us when they're playing together is lots of energy in defending but virtually no incisive passing to attacking players. Against clubs that park the bus on us, which is most clubs, we really don't need to two high-energy defending midfielders.
What we do need are two central midfielders who are willing to defend, and by definition that excludes Pogba, but we need at least one of those midfielders being able to pass the ball quickly into intelligent spaces, and that by definition excludes Fred.
Against clubs that force us to shit our pants like City or Liverpool I am completely on board with McFred. but against clubs who will sit back on us, like Villa, we should give Donny a shot at playing with McTominay in the double pivot.
But you can count on Ole going with Fred in PL. If Donny is lucky, he'll be brought on in the 85th minute a few times a month.
What we do need are two central midfielders who are willing to defend, and by definition that excludes Pogba, but we need at least one of those midfielders being able to pass the ball quickly into intelligent spaces, and that by definition excludes Fred.
Against clubs that force us to shit our pants like City or Liverpool I am completely on board with McFred. but against clubs who will sit back on us, like Villa, we should give Donny a shot at playing with McTominay in the double pivot.
But you can count on Ole going with Fred in PL. If Donny is lucky, he'll be brought on in the 85th minute a few times a month.
The humming and ahh part is "if I say 10, I have no chance to get into the team, so I better go for something else".
While this is kind of true, if he cant come in and pretty much instantly improve the team when coming on then what chance does he have? Its the same for most trying to break into the first 11. I saw a count of minutes for last season and he actually had quite a lot of minutes played. Maybe someone has access to that. It surprised me
The thing is, its a points business and even though it's early days, we are still joint top on points. I mean, should we temporarily downgrade to accommodate his acclimatization? For me its a no, we should play a tried and tested McFred or Matic (whatever you think of them) and ease Donny in bit by bit here and there. Bringing Donny in for the full 90 could rock the boat and we could lose. If he cant shine when he does get minutes I really dont see much hope for him. I always hear people saying he just cant catch a break or he was so unlucky but this is elite sport. That's how it is. He has to make his own luck to a degree and suck it up when it's not going his way.
Loads of players get 10 mins here and 20 mins there at other big clubs and manage to make a difference when they do come on. He really has to take his chances and make the most of them. I actually think that if anything, with Donny, limited chances is making him try too hard and this is affecting his game. He needs to just chill and play his game. He will get minutes according to Ole and should keep improving. I dont actually know where he can play for us but Ole obviously knows as he wanted him to stay. I think he has been OK up to now. A few decent passes and quite decent close control.
I think he can do OK at United but I don't see him tying down a permanent first team spot. He reminds me a bit of Herrera or Mata like that. Great squad players. I don't think he wants this though and will probably leave.
Thats my two pence worth anyway. I hope I am totally wrong and he smashes a hattrick every game from now on.
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Donny playing time last season (minutes)
Premier league 511, Champions league 276, FA Cup 293, EFL Cup 237, Europa League 139, Total played 1456
Source: Transfermarkt (not sure how reliable these are guys)
Premier league 511, Champions league 276, FA Cup 293, EFL Cup 237, Europa League 139, Total played 1456
Source: Transfermarkt (not sure how reliable these are guys)
He's been at United 15 months and has been nothing but bang average.
One decent pass isn't going to sway me into thinking he's anything but bang average.
For what it's worth, I liked what I saw from him against West Ham and don't hold him responsible for the defeat (that would be Martial). I hope he continues to build and replace Fred eventually as the latter can't seem to hit basic passes at times.
I would trust him to keep the ball in our half of the pitch, he doesn't give away the ball easily under pressure and doesn't feck up a pass like fred or try risky passes like bruno or pogba.
I agree with that sentiment. We have to try to incorporate Donny into the CM rotation, we should get to a point where two out of Fred, Donny and McTominay play 9 out of 10 times. Sub Matic when there are less than 15minutes on the clock to defend, deploy Pogba there to attack in games we have to win, but only for periods of the games.
I think, this is the only way to find out, if Donny has a place in our squad or not. He earned the right to get constant minutes. And Fred's current form add to that.
Funny, how two people can come to the same conclusion while seeing different reasons. I don't agree at all that Donny is better than Fred in almost every way. I understand the criticism towards Fred but his meaning for our team is well underrated in my eyes. He is the one player with huge workrate in our team. A team that often consists of Greenwood, Pogba and Bruno. Now additionally with Ronaldo and Sancho. I don't want to say they are lazy but their efforts go to 95% into chance creation which is fine of course but falls flat if built up is ignored. Which is why we often look so disjointed, the distances between players are too far. Fred is running his socks of, defends at the edge of the box, runs upwards to create a passing option for an attacker. That is vital to our game. In another discussion, I went and compared Donny and Fred regarding their match against Young Boys. I looked at "All touches of" videos on youtube and they epitomized, what Fred is great for, he is a very progressive passer of the ball, isn't hogging it all but often tries one touch passes to increase the tempo of our moves.
And one word about Donnys "great runs that his teams isn't used to yet": if people don't know what he is doing than these runs aren't really great. He is a midfielder, his first intention should be ball retention and not progression. Of course these two can be married so in the right team, Donny can leave his positon, move forward to provide a progressive passing option. But this only works because a team mate will adapt his own position to cover for him. I have seen his runs, they are to interesting position, no question about that, but the only way he could be reached there often would be one touch passing, which just isn't a strong suit of most of our players. So all in all, Donnys positioning is a bit subpar, just like McTominays is but for different reasons.
I agree, our handling of the player DVB is borderline criminal. But my take is, that started when bringing him not just by not giving him minutes. Every scout must have seen, that he only was deployed in pass-and-move teams, possession oriented, why on gods earth would somebody think, that a player like that would fit in at the current United side? And don't argue that he might have been replacement for Pogba or a back-up for Bruno - again I would have a very serious look at the abilities of that scouting department because Donny shares almost none of the traits/key aspects of the skillset with these players. He was never a creator, he was a multiplicator in attack, one that was able to work in small spaces, using one-touch football. And now we are thinking about re-applying him in the center of midfield, probably to continue our proud tradition last seen with the glorious case that was the Anderson transformation...
About no incisive passing: I agree, that isn't McFreds strong suit (even though Fred is better at it than you many depict him) but to play incisive passes, you don't have one setting to tweak to find a good solution. Other teams make sure, that players, when they receive the ball, have always options to pass to. With us, that isn't so much the case, which leads to situations where our Midfielders (actually most players) are left with two options, go for a difficult through ball or play it back as a safe option. As long as our teams often plays as distant from each other at some point in the builtup we are just making it extra difficult for us, especially our midfield. We wouldn't even have to turn the Big Wheel, to re-organize the whole team (I personally would expect the manager to do exactly that but I am realistic enough to not see it as an obvious mistake) but we could tweak Bruno's position (or Sancho or the other winger or even fullback): they have to make sure, that there is always a relatively safe progressive option available. And soon you would see the improvement and Fred and McToms passing wouldn't stand out.
About parked the bus: Fully agree here, against teams that usually play like this, we should try Donny for. I consider him a risk against counters though so this has to be taken into consideration. I mean, we aren't fixed for 90min, if the game changes or the situation demands it, we can sub and change our approach a bit during games.
Should start today, based on Wednesday. Not that it was a mind-blowing performance or anything, but really what’s the point in even giving him a League Cup app if not to reward what was a clear improvement from him, especially when it’s likely Fred he’d replace.
It's so annoying how Ole still won't use him even after Van De Beek played well during the week.
Nothing against Fred but he has been terrible so far this season. It's really worrying if Ole can't see this.
Nothing against Fred but he has been terrible so far this season. It's really worrying if Ole can't see this.
He'll most likely start on Wednesday.
If he can continue putting in decent performances he'll get more chances in the prem.
This. Found his performance encouraging, but he needs to put it in consistently to oust an established player.
No matter how poor Fred performs, he still consistently gets starts over Donny. This can’t go on for a third season.
He'll be gone at the end of the season. Ole doesn't trust him enough to play him for more than 1 consecutive game.
No, we’re on exactly the same page. The one thing I rate Fred for is the energy he brings to the team. He runs around everywhere, harrying the opposition like a little terrier. And most important of all he doesn’t dwell on the ball, he keeps it moving, a super underrated quality in my opinion when you compare him to Pogba who has a tendency to hold on too long or McTominay who loves to roll his foot over it in maddening fashion. Why someone hasn’t exorcised that out of his game I don’t know. Fred is the current hate player du jour and people easily forget just how good he was not so long ago. But right now his form is terrible, that’s why I think Donny deserves his chance.
We also agree on Donnys positioning. He does tend to run forward a lot and end up in slightly bad positions if he doesn’t get the ball. But that’s my point. We need that to unlock teams playing the low block and he should be trained to get his positioning better and for others to see his runs and pass to him. In short, he needs to be integrated more so that we can utilize him properly. But all of this discussion just leads me to one point. Why did we buy Sancho when we are already so stacked, at the expense of bringing in a CDM that we so desperately needed and that would have transformed this team, allowing us to play any one of Pogba, Donny, McTominay, Fred there?
I agree with a lot of your points. You seem to have a very good understanding of the game whilst also being realistic too. So, what do you think of Ole and his football and coaches? I think it was different before because we never had a realistic chance of beating City. But now we properly have a squad to challenge. So we seriously have to think about our options in terms of how to get the best out of it. I think having built it, Ole deserves to see what he can do with it. But I seriously think he needs to bring in a really experienced top level coach that would help transform the way we play. Because we have so much potential right now of only someone could unlock it.
I really don't get it. Ole only sees what could potentially get worse, and not better. Stupid really
Imagine watching that shitshow from McTominay today and deciding you'll leave him on for 80 minutes over a midfielder with good movement and passing.
Christ.
Christ.
Get on the phone to your agent lad
I’m at a complete loss why we didn’t sell him and replace him him with a midfielder that Ole will use. It’s very obvious that Ole just doesn’t rate him, so why not sell when his stock is still kinda high and get someone in that we will actually use. Madness to keep him and not use him when our midfield isn’t working.
Donny has every right to be fuming about what he just witnessed today and still remain in solitary confinement. Of course he should bite his tongue in public but he and his agent need to work out a move away from Old Trafford. I don’t want to see that happen there’s no good for the player or the club can come from a player being treated this way.
Good point.
Good question. I mean, getting Sancho certainly hasn't been a mistake by any means. I mean, we were lacking a player that plays comfortably on the right wing for quite some time so he fits that criteria pretty much, he is also more on the creator side of things instead of the converter side (like Greenwood and Rashford) so thats another checkbox. Last but not least, he is young, british and is seen as world class potential. He has a slow start, no debate, but I think, he will come good under the right circumstances. Be that more in sync with his team mates, more used to the pressure that comes with being at United or eventually under another set of coaches who make it easier for him to shine.
My question would be more towards Donny - why buy him? Why not sell him in the summer? I like DVB as a player, I even think, he could come alright in our midfield but why bother. Why not letting him somewhere where he is played to his strength while we can use the funds to buy someone, who is fitted to our needs. I think, we agree on that, that doesn't seem to be a smart piece of "job". But, and that must be said, things can change entirely by so many things and we can end up being happy with him in the squad. Who knows. And to tackle that last point, I don't think, there is a player out there who enables us to play Pogba in a double pivot. As long as we insist of that setup, Pogba needs to play somewhere else. Change the setup to a 3man midfield we have a different debate. But that ain't a small decision and has implications on so many things that it is certainly nothing in the categorie "why doesn't he just...". You know what I mean?
My stance on that is documented especially in the "we are an awfully coached side"-thread and the Ole-performance thread. I would agree with you, he right now at least needs to add a specialist to instill some sophistication into this team (needs to for me personally so I have a feeling he is aware of a problem and he tries to engage it). If he does that and there are few developments to be seen during the season, I am more than happy to give Ole another year (probably not even depending on trophies too much (mind when there is a specialist brought in and something can be seen) ).
Apart from it, I think the manager has done a very good job but we as a club would be very dumb not to prepare ourself for a point in time where we are in need of another manager (no matter when that point in time is). I don't think, Ole should be in position where it isn't possible to think about alternatives while, and that is big credit to him, I think, he placed the bar quite high and I would only make a switch, if I have an extremely good feeling for a candidate. I am also not a fan of the option with Z and the option with C but I guess, it is better to not have that discussion here in Donny's living room
Right and how’s he supposed to do that when he’s never given the chances? This being a very rare one. And why can’t he oust an established player when those established players are playing so badly? Or when we need more creativity.
Yeah, I think it was perhaps a bit dumb to buy him based on how he fits into our style of play. But I get that he was available for a good price and ole preferred to have him than no one at all. But the more important point like you said is why didn’t he sell him if he was never really in his plans? Obviously he thinks he doesn’t fit. So sell him and buy someone who will do. Bissouma being one example. Or sell Lingard as well and buy Rice if that’s his golden boy. Oles logic sometimes leaves a lot to be desired.
I can see why we bought Van de Beek. However, spending £40m on a #10 seems crazy now.
What we really needed was a true successor to Carrick. Someone who could sit in the middle of the park and move the ball forward for us. Donny is many things, many of them good. He aint that though.
Just feels like another waste of money at the moment. Like so many of our transfers since Sir Alex retired.
He's not a bad player. But he's yet another square peg for a round hole. Now all of us are hoping, praying, wishing that he's Frenkie de Jong in disguise when he's actually closer to Holland's Thomas Muller.
What we really needed was a true successor to Carrick. Someone who could sit in the middle of the park and move the ball forward for us. Donny is many things, many of them good. He aint that though.
Just feels like another waste of money at the moment. Like so many of our transfers since Sir Alex retired.
He's not a bad player. But he's yet another square peg for a round hole. Now all of us are hoping, praying, wishing that he's Frenkie de Jong in disguise when he's actually closer to Holland's Thomas Muller.
So that's going to be the ONLY cup game we'll play this year, right? But hey, let's ignore the dozen or so terrible games and focus on the one decent one because it's most recent. Being able to put more than decent performance together would be a pretty decent start.
I like VDB, but so far he's done sod all to justify starting games. When he was given opportunities he flattered to deceive. Hopefully he's a bit more settled now, he'll show he can do it regularly against weak sides and force his way into the starting XI.
He's played well in his last 6 starts. That's more than Mcfred can say.
He is not a runner, but a passer. Ole wants runners with energy in DM/CM, passing is a bonus. Not the other way around.
Needs to leave in January, as he wont play a lot.
Needs to leave in January, as he wont play a lot.
No he hasnt. Let's not make things up to prove a point now.
You know McFred are multiple people right? But you're right they haven't shown anything deserve a start lately
Klaassen hasn't played a single minute for Ajax since he came back from the last international break with a groin injury. I could see VDB getting a call up on friday for the bench if he starts Villareal, unless LVG wants to debut an Eredivisie player. Gravenberch likely to start I'm guessing.
Wolves last year, Everton pre season, YB first half, West Ham cup.
Somewhere in between 1 game and 6 starts.
Wolves last year, Everton pre season, YB first half, West Ham cup.
Somewhere in between 1 game and 6 starts.
Yes. And you understand VDB is a person too, and the subject of my response? Have another read bud.
Sure I take it back. 4 starts. Still better than McFred
VDB has never stunk the place out like McFred have done continuously. Fred was ok today, McTominay was borderline terrible. There is no way VDB would have played worse. Every time he’s played with Matic he’s played well. Let’s see him get other chances. As I’ve said before you can’t expect him to play amazing without being given any kind of minutes to build up match rhythm and get accustomed to the other players. Imagine how bad Fred would be if he only came in for a few minutes every month or so and usually then played with the crapper players. Imagine the same with McTominay. We don’t need to play McFred every game. We should be bedding in Donny and also playing Matic more when fitness allows. This nonsense of playing two holding middle every game even when at hone against weaker opposition has to stop. Ole needs to find better balance in the team. We haven’t progressed at all in that area.
He will get his chance when Ten Haag comes in
I agree, Donny would be an option during the game but with 2 subs needed for injuries, I also agree with the manager to try to influence somewhere else.
I would like to see Donny in the first team in the middle next to either Fred or McTominay and I'd love to find out how he copes with pressure like the one created by Villa. He certainly deserves his chance to embarass himself just as the others do ^^ . No seriously, he is a bit of an unknown entity in that regard, he has the technical tools but he will need his team mates for it because he is a passer not a dribbler - in our team that might be problematic and will end in him looking just as bad as Fred does sometimes.
I don't think, he is the Messiahs for Uniteds midfield but as McTominay and Fred are not setting the world on fire with their skills, it certainly wouldn't hurt to integrate Donny in the rotation. And if it is only good for us know, if he is a lost case in that position or if it is worth the time to invest in his transformation.
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