[LDUred]

Fof me I just see a slightly different version of Danny Blind in midfield with VDB. Lazy comparison maybe, I think it was Blinds best position for us as he didnt have the strength or pace to play lb or cb in the premier league. I thought he was decent in midfield, actually much mor eintelligent than VDB but not so good on the ball. But I see them as similar in that they are both neat and tidy on the ball but dont actually offer a huge amount more than that.

Always thought Blind was slightly underappreciated by United and the Premier League in general. He can play passes that many cannot see let alone execute.

We just didn't really get the best out of him as a player, though.

I hope the same doesn't happen to Donny, although I am not convinced he is quite on Blind's level, technique-wise. He could just be a different type of player.

 

[Lyng]

Yeah these exact movements and manipulation of space is what alot of posters who think he is bad simply don't see.
Sadly, often his team mates don't get it either.

 

[city-puma]

Yeah these exact movements and manipulation of space is what alot of posters who think he is bad simply don't see.
Sadly, often his team mates don't get it either.

not necessarily they don’t get it but they feel more comfortable with the alternative options.

 

[Lyng]

not necessarily they don’t get it but they feel more comfortable with the alternative options.

I don't think that's the case. Often you will see him pass and move and players like Wan Bissaka stop and look or simply run. There clearly is a lack of understanding.

 

[friendlytramp]

I thought he was awful. It seems that every time he touched the ball he panicked and gave it away
..? What do I know

 

[acnumber9]

Yeah these exact movements and manipulation of space is what alot of posters who think he is bad simply don't see.
Sadly, often his team mates don't get it either.

Yes. You understand football better than those that play at the highest level of the game.

 

[jesperjaap]

Always thought Blind was slightly underappreciated by United and the Premier League in general. He can play passes that many cannot see let alone execute.

We just didn't really get the best out of him as a player, though.

I hope the same doesn't happen to Donny, although I am not convinced he is quite on Blind's level, technique-wise. He could just be a different type of player.

I partly agree. For me Blind was never a centre back, certainly not for the premier league anyway. He got expsoed so often for pace and strength playing there for us. We wasted him playing him there. He was a decent left back, but I did think he was a godo option in a poor side at the time in central midfield, preferred him to Herrera there and Herrera had a decent spell at the time.

I guess its similar with VDB in that he isnt a bad option in a poor midfield....but for me personally, I just never saw him as a good signign anyway. Never got the hype or excitement of some when we signed him. For me that Ajax side DeJong and DeLigt were so obviously the star players. A lot of the others were decent but overhyped. Players liked Neres wre decent but not top players, Tadic was one of the better players yet lets not forget he was average at SOuthampton. I couldnt believe the hype about Ziyech as a CHelsea signing as for me, he was no better than what they already had or were gettign rid of even, thought he would struggle to get games and he is now.

VDB is a £40m squad player and not a valuable one. We could have signed someone to do a similar role he brings for a fraction of the cost in my opinion, was a poor signing. Not a bad player, but not a great one and more importantly was totally not what we needed at the time either

 

[Lyng]

Yes. You understand football better than those that play at the highest level of the game.

Donny plays one touch style football. Something several of our players are not used to and thus they don't work well together with Donny.
I am not a native English speaker so I hope this clarifies what I meant.

 

[city-puma]

I don't think that's the case. Often you will see him pass and move and players like Wan Bissaka stop and look or simply run. There clearly is a lack of understanding.

TBH, AWB is no stranger to the similar treatment. He makes a lot of movement in the final third, and is ignored by the teammates most times.

 

[Lyng]

TBH, AWB is no stranger to the similar treatment. He makes a lot of movement in the final third, and is ignored by the teammates most times.

And I think that underlines the issue even more, and explains why most of our goals come from individual moves or counters and why low defending blocks are hard for us to unlock.
Our movement and passing is to simplistic and slow.

 

[lex talionis]

Was anyone even 'very good' last night? I'm genuinely confused as to what I am missing.

Henderson made some “very good” saves and overall looked sharp. Saves that De Gea at his best would make with with a blindfold on, admittedly, but Dean put in a very, very good performance.

But it was the performances of Martial and Mata which let the team down. One can excuse Mata on account of his age, but that begs the question why is he’s on the squad if his legs are shot. There are no excuses for Martial.

 

[Plg91]

I think when he gets a place in the squad and Sancho settles in, they will have a good combination. Even I think their one touch playstyle will fit Martial up top if he go through his problem atm. A lot of if but it can be a joy too see.

 

[HailtotheKing]

Found it laughable people talkign about signing a quality centre back will allow more freedom for the central midfielders and maybe no pivot....utter twaddle, it just improves tha back four.

Think for me it was about Varane having more pace to allow the defense to push up which would mean the mids being closer to the front four to help knit things together. As opposed to this huge gap between attack and midfield.

 

[yipthatman]

Our movement and passing is to simplistic and slow.

Haha so true. I often notice this. It's like they wait for the opposition to get back into position before they even know what to do and by that time the chance has gone.

I actually think this is why Donny gets ignored a lot. Because last season whenever he got passed to, he immediately passed back to the person that passed to him rather than playing it forwards. I think he is improving in this department from what I see. Nothing wrong with playing a quick 1-2 but I think it would be more effective for Donny in and around the box. If he is playing DM he will be no where near that area most of the time.

He definitely needs more time to find his role, just not sure he will have that many more chances with some academy players knocking on the door and us now being out of the Carabao cup.

I actually don't think Donny is any better than Fred in the premier league, just different. I suppose it's up to the manager to get more than the sum of the parts out of the team. I think neither are good enough for United and we need to invest or even bring someone through from the academy for CDM. Saying that, while they are here I will continue to support them.

I think Donny was a bizarre purchase but makes sense had Pogba left (which he was doing until covid) as we couldn't get Grealish for the price we paid for Donny. I really dont know what Ole will do with him but I am interested to find out.

 

[roonster09]

That's a nice bit of analysis. Thought he had good game, at least one of his better ones.

 

[Borys]

That is why I wrote it yes. His only good movement for me is moving into the channels to support the wingers or full back around the area. Its all opinions but if you didnt once himself take himself out of the game moving into a corner you must have been watching a different game. I have seen him do it in other games too.

I am not saying its constantly bad, there were times he moved in to space and was ignored as well.

Fof me I just see a slightly different version of Danny Blind in midfield with VDB. Lazy comparison maybe, I think it was Blinds best position for us as he didnt have the strength or pace to play lb or cb in the premier league. I thought he was decent in midfield, actually much mor eintelligent than VDB but not so good on the ball. But I see them as similar in that they are both neat and tidy on the ball but dont actually offer a huge amount more than that.

Does he offer more than Fred, maybe, but neither player are the answer whatsoever for us in my opinion. Cant believe we didnt address that area in the summer, for me it was actually the most important. Found it laughable people talkign about signing a quality centre back will allow more freedom for the central midfielders and maybe no pivot....utter twaddle, it just improves tha back four. All that is improved in front of it from signing Varane is that he is more composed on the ball for the midfielders to move in to space and take it shorter against a press. Pogba maybe benefits ever so slightly but it doesnt improve the abilities of the midfielders to shield the back four and our current options simply arent good enough at that and they arent good enough with the ball either and that inclides VDB

I agree with the bolded part, still seems like we're playing exactly the same football as pre-Varane and our good record is more due to De Gea than back 4 (partly because all our fullbacks are in poor form right now).
I see van de Beek differently, I think he suits this team more than Fred currently but that's just an opinion game. Whether he is the final answer is not really a question we should be asking ourselves at this point, the transfer window is closed and we have to focus on what we have and find a possible midfield solution - even if that's until next summer.

 

[Adam-Utd]

I thought he was awful. It seems that every time he touched the ball he panicked and gave it away
..? What do I know

how do people seriously come to conclusions like this? he was anything but awful.

I can only remember 2 moments he lost it in the 2nd half. The first half he barely put a foot wrong.

What exactly do you want him to do in midfield? what made that an awful performance? i'd really love to know.

 

[jesperjaap]

I agree with the bolded part, still seems like we're playing exactly the same football as pre-Varane and our good record is more due to De Gea than back 4 (partly because all our fullbacks are in poor form right now).
I see van de Beek differently, I think he suits this team more than Fred currently but that's just an opinion game. Whether he is the final answer is not really a question we should be asking ourselves at this point, the transfer window is closed and we have to focus on what we have and find a possible midfield solution - even if that's until next summer.

Yes I agree with that. Without possesion there still doesnt seem to be an organised press most of the time, often its just Fernandes and maybe one other and also often the other side seems to progress from there own third to our with ease when teams go at us. I think we have had some good spells in games but so far this seson we havent played well at all really, we have struggled. Like last season a burst of goals and scoreline reversal has kept people happy. Newcastle was certainly an example, we were really poor against a poor side.

VDB may be a better option of Fred. I am not convinced either way by either of them. As you say we need to find the best solution now.....but Im still quite angry despite three excellent signings we never addressed the problem over the summer. I felt we needed two signings there the problem was so dire, for me it was important than a centra back and a right winger tough we did need both

 

[Adam-Utd]

Great thread.

DVB gives us something Mcfred struggle with, and that's building up play in tight areas. His quick brain and great first touch allow him to turn quickly and pass it forwards with little hesitation.

His last few performances (Wolves away, Everton home, Young Boys away, West Ham home) have all been decent performances. He's getting better and better IMO.

Before he did look a bit sluggish and unfit/not ready for the league, but for me he looks ready now for a much bigger part in the side.

I think we should mold him to be our Jorginho. He's just as technically good as him, physically he's no slower or weaker. All sides need a metronomic passer to keep the ball moving while you build up play - we currently don't have that.

 

[Borys]

Yes I agree with that. Without possesion there still doesnt seem to be an organised press most of the time, often its just Fernandes and maybe one other and also often the other side seems to progress from there own third to our with ease when teams go at us. I think we have had some good spells in games but so far this seson we havent played well at all really, we have struggled. Like last season a burst of goals and scoreline reversal has kept people happy. Newcastle was certainly an example, we were really poor against a poor side.

VDB may be a better option of Fred. I am not convinced either way by either of them. As you say we need to find the best solution now.....but Im still quite angry despite three excellent signings we never addressed the problem over the summer. I felt we needed two signings there the problem was so dire, for me it was important than a centra back and a right winger tough we did need both

We don't press. Ever. Some players are running around (like Fernandes) but if you've seen a real organized pressing, we don't come close to that. This is in my opinion our biggest issue in general - off the ball movement, it applies to both when we're not in possession but also when we're building an attack. A lot of our issues could be mitigated (for example lack of DM) if we knew how to press as a team.
Back to the point, midfield is by far our weakest area, regardless of who plays there, so if we can improve a bit in that regard, it'll be a big benefit for our play. That's why I'm advocating more van de Beek in midfield.

 

[VanDeBank]

So which function was Matic performing for the goal?

This is the VDB thread.

Silly things kids say when they don't know the answer

 

[Tom Cato]

That's a nice bit of analysis. Thought he had good game, at least one of his better ones.

I just wish he hadnt left his man alone in our box for West Ham's 1-0 goal.

 

[roonster09]

I just wish he hadnt left his man alone in our box for West Ham's 1-0 goal.

Tbf it came out of nothing, it looked like situation was under control and then all of a sudden West Ham player beat Telles and other one so easily.

 

[Raven]

I think a Fred - VDB midfield would be good.

 

[romufc]

VDB can put 10 good performances, he will not start in the PL under Ole, its quite simple. Ole needs a midfielder who will just run around, he does not care about passing or build up.

 

[harms]

I think we should mold him to be our Jorginho. He's just as technically good as him, physically he's no slower or weaker. All sides need a metronomic passer to keep the ball moving while you build up play - we currently don't have that.

He isn't, not even close in terms of his passing and he never was a metronomic pace-dictating midfielder.

The biggest issue with van de Beek is that our main side doesn't play to his strengths. Weirdly enough, playing alongside Mata, Lingard & Sancho is better for him than playing with Pogba, Rashford, Cristiano & Bruno, who all prefer more direct & less fluid playing style. And unless our manager decides to switch to that playing style full time, I don't see van de Beek performing to the best of his ability.

 

[Adam-Utd]

He isn't, not even close in terms of his passing and he never was a metronomic pace-dictating midfielder.

The biggest issue with van de Beek is that our main side doesn't play to his strengths. Weirdly enough, playing alongside Mata, Lingard & Sancho is better for him than playing with Pogba, Rashford, Cristiano & Bruno, who all prefer more direct & less fluid playing style. And unless our manager decides to switch to that playing style full time, I don't see van de Beek performing to the best of his ability.

He is in my opinion. His forward passing in particular was excellent against West Ham.

What does Jorginho do better? he plays even more safer/short passes.

 

[harms]

He is in my opinion. His forward passing in particular was excellent against West Ham.

What does Jorginho do better? he plays even more safer/short passes.

That's exactly what he does better and that's exactly what is required from a player of his role. He plays even more (almost 2 times more) passes, controlling the pace of the game from deeper areas while van de Beek never played a similar role nor had he shown any promise in it.

 

[Bilbo]

I think when he gets a place in the squad and Sancho settles in, they will have a good combination. Even I think their one touch playstyle will fit Martial up top if he go through his problem atm. A lot of if but it can be a joy too see.

Agree with this, and I believe this is a large part of the plan that has been referred to in the discussions that Ole and Donny have had. Sancho is going to move over to being a predominantly right sided attacker in due course and I also think that these are two players very capable of building an understanding in that area of the pitch.

 

[Siorac]

That's exactly what he does better and that's exactly what is required from a player of his role. He plays even more (almost 2 times more) passes, controlling the pace of the game from deeper areas while van de Beek never played a similar role nor had he shown any promise in it.

Note that fbref doesn't have passing data from the Dutch league so all of Donny's passing stats come from last season when he played less than 6 games' worth of minutes in the league. Not a great sample size to draw any conclusions.

 

[Borys]

Fair points, you can see him constantly looking around and he's taking positions which make it easier for the team to move the ball. My only worry is if he'll be allowed to do it in PL game where our midfield generally is quite timid.

He isn't, not even close in terms of his passing and he never was a metronomic pace-dictating midfielder.

The biggest issue with van de Beek is that our main side doesn't play to his strengths. Weirdly enough, playing alongside Mata, Lingard & Sancho is better for him than playing with Pogba, Rashford, Cristiano & Bruno, who all prefer more direct & less fluid playing style. And unless our manager decides to switch to that playing style full time, I don't see van de Beek performing to the best of his ability.

I think that's true but another conclusion is him in CM and Sancho on the wing makes even more sense.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

This thread is amazing. Why with players like this, kagawa in the past, are the excuses always that his play style is too genius for players and coaches to understand, and that's where the illusion that he is playing poorly comes from.

Donny had another chance the other night. He looked fine. We lost the game. Ole won't be happy with any of the players. Sad for Donny but he needed to affect the game more if we wants to play ahead of players who are winning us games elsewhere.

 

[MadMike]

This thread is amazing. Why with players like this, kagawa in the past, are the excuses always that his play style is too genius for players and coaches to understand, and that's where the illusion that he is playing poorly comes from.

Donny had another chance the other night. He looked fine. We lost the game. Ole won't be happy with any of the players. Sad for Donny but he needed to affect the game more if we wants to play ahead of players who are winning us games elsewhere.

To be fair, those games are being won by Ronaldo, Greenwood, Pogba, Fernandes... not Fred or Matic. There is a difference in quality up top that cannot be ignored.

I think playing with the "B team" so to speak, isn't doing him any favours because cumulatively the team is obviously weaker but not specifically because of himself. This is a crunch few months for him, where we find if he has it or not. He needs to start 2-3 EPL games in a row with the core team, in my opinion, to see how he can performs in the proper setup. Fred is having a slowish start to the season, maybe it's a good opportunity for VDB.

If he doesn't prove himself in the next couple of months, I can see him on the transfer window as early as January. Same thing that happened to Schneiderlin who left after 18 months. Both him and us would just be wasting time really, if he stays beyond that.

 

[Adam-Utd]

That's exactly what he does better and that's exactly what is required from a player of his role. He plays even more (almost 2 times more) passes, controlling the pace of the game from deeper areas while van de Beek never played a similar role nor had he shown any promise in it.

Well that's not really possible to compare is it.

Jorginho plays in a role tailored for him. What i'm saying is VDB is capable of doing the same thing. If Tuchel joined us he'd probably have us playing a 4-3-3 with VDB at the base as the playmaker.

if he's never played the role then how can he show promise

He ticks every box required. Good first touch, press resistant, moves the ball quickly and keeps it simple. He's shown he's capable of hitting the long switch when required also. Defensively he's capable too, just needs to practice his positioning.

He said himself he can play this position in the interview with Rio Ferdinand, and all his better performances for us have come from deeper positions.

 

[MadMike]

Well that's not really possible to compare is it.

Jorginho plays in a role tailored for him. What i'm saying is VDB is capable of doing the same thing. If Tuchel joined us he'd probably have us playing a 4-3-3 with VDB at the base as the playmaker.

if he's never played the role then how can he show promise

He ticks every box required. Good first touch, press resistant, moves the ball quickly and keeps it simple. He's shown he's capable of hitting the long switch when required also. Defensively he's capable too, just needs to practice his positioning.

He said himself he can play this position in the interview with Rio Ferdinand, and all his better performances for us have come from deeper positions.

That (the bolded) is completely baseless in my opinion on a number of grounds.

First off, that is Jorginho's playstyle since as far back as I remember. He does it well enough that the team adapts to this strengths, that's why the role is "tailored for him". He did the same thing for Napoli for years under Sarri. It's not a Tuchel invention. He just saw how well it works playing Jorginho at the base and continued it. VDB by comparison has never really played the midfield metronome role, that was FDJ playing that role at Ajax. He never really showed any natural inclination to it either, like Jorginho has. You're saying he is capable of doing it, based on very little.

Finally Tuchel plays 3-4-3 Chelsea, not 4-3-3, yet Jorgnho is still at the base of his midfield with Kante or Kovacic being the pressers/harassers.

 

[harms]

Well that's not really possible to compare is it.

Jorginho plays in a role tailored for him. What i'm saying is VDB is capable of doing the same thing. If Tuchel joined us he'd probably have us playing a 4-3-3 with VDB at the base as the playmaker.

if he's never played the role then how can he show promise

He ticks every box required. Good first touch, press resistant, moves the ball quickly and keeps it simple. He's shown he's capable of hitting the long switch when required also. Defensively he's capable too, just needs to practice his positioning.

He said himself he can play this position in the interview with Rio Ferdinand, and all his better performances for us have come from deeper positions.

Basically, you're saying that van de Beek can seamlessly transition into one of the most specific and niche roles in modern football despite never performing in any similar role before in his career nor showing even the glimpse of potential to orchestrate the game from deeper areas based on the fact that he is press resistant & a decent passer? A player, whose strongest feature is his off-the-ball movement, especially in offensive areas. It's kinda hard to argue against an opinion that isn't based on any real evidence, so fair enough.

 

[mewnew11]

I think a Fred - VDB midfield would be good.

Vdb and mctominay will be good too. Vdb can play a Box to box role

 

[Raven]

Vdb and mctominay will be good too. Vdb can play a Box to box role

I'm not as sure about McT and Donny, Scott isn't anywhere near as good defensively as Fred is.

 

[b82REZ]

Vdb and mctominay will be good too. Vdb can play a Box to box role

Jesus, according to the Caf Donny can play any position.

He's shown nothing to suggest he'd be suited to that role.

 

[mancan92]

I thought he was our best player. Used the ball well slotted greenwood through with a great pass and defended well. I don't see anything actually wrong with his performance at all