David Moyes - The Tactician

Yea its becoming obvious that Rooney's unwillingness to drop deep is harming the team shape. 2 strikers up top beside each other isolate them from the midfield - if he actually played like a no 10 and dropped deeper he would connect the midfield and RVP so much better, he would help us win the midfield battle, he would allow our second midfielder (not Carrick) to make forward runs into space without worrying too much about being hit on the counter, etc.

If Rooney puts all this second to his own personal ability to score goals and decide games then he should be dropped. Simple as..
 
Stack said:
Hope I have the right picture with the right comment. It all depends on what you are wanting to happen going forward with respect to Rooney and RVP playing next to each other. In this situation if we are looking to supply either our wide players or our fullbacks getting forward then Ronney and RVP are where they should be with respect to our play being in the middle third. Timing of runs is crucial and in this photo by being central they are keeping the CB's away from being able to quickly support their fullbacks if the ball is to be played to our wide players in the final third. Look at the space on the opposite side for our RW to attack if the ball was headed that way. This shows why when we are in the middle third with the ball that Rooney and RVP are playing closer. If they play closer at this point it creats more space for the wide players.
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Good point and, yes, you do have the right picture, mate, but I'd have to disagree. Our primary tactic was to move ball down the wing and cross it in - I think that's what was said from Moyes. It's nothing different to the Liverpool game. In truth, it caused us a lot of problems building from the back. At times, we hoofed the ball up, which is really frustrating. I mean, take a look at our first goal scored. This is genius all round from Carrick, Januzaj, Nani, and RvP IMO:

6glj.png

Already, as displayed, there is midfield superiority for Sunderland in their own half. Nani drops deep to collect the ball from Carrick, but it's a 3 v 4 situation. Usually, it would be 3 v 3, but due to Giaccherini being infield, it gave them midfield superiority. It was this narrow shape that worked against Sunderland at times because it meant we could use our width. In taking a narrow, compact shape, Sunderland left Evra and Cleverley open... And in the end, it was a mixture of movement and width that broke their midfield shape. Note how Januzaj is surrounded by a couple of players, but the movement shown in the later pictures frees him up.

3v64.png

0urm.png

Nani's options are limited, but Van Persie drops deep to offer himself as an outlet. He receives the pass (from Nani), dragging the centre-back out of position, and then he takes up a position centrally to offer himself as an outlet. Prior to this, Januzaj was surrounded by four players, so if he had picked up the ball from Carrick/Nani early on, it would have been hard to turn and switch the ball to the left. Our objective was to switch the ball to the left, but we had to do it in a subtle way. In the third image above, Sunderland have put too much focus on Van Persie. Cattermole's positional awareness was poor in this situation... He's not tight enough to Januzaj, but Carrick's first time ball (IMO, he's the best first time passer in the league) was exactly what we needed. And now, United have a 4 v 4 in the middle, but they've also got two options - Cleverley and Evra - who are completely free on the left, to use as outlets.

i1q7.png

Januzaj finally picks up the ball, but now he has time to manoeuvre and pass the ball to Evra, who has a lot of space. Now, Sunderland's narrow shape is completely broken. And thanks to Rooney's movement, Evra had more space than he should have. Against a block that is narrow, the easiest thing to do - to break the shape - is overload the middle and then play the ball wide. Width is imperative and for Evra's poor defending in the last two games, he adds so much to our shape. Van Persie dropping deep is the most pivotal aspect of this goal. That's what I wanted Rooney to do in the first half. It doesn't mean he has to constantly drop deep and pick out through balls or anything of that sort, but there is a massive advantage for us because of the narrowness of Sunderland's block.
 
I just hope he stops playing Young on the left. You can see how much more fluid our passing become with someone like Januzaj on the left, something which makes the choice of omitting a certain Kagawa from the team utterly puzzling. A key feature of our game has always been the left interior midfielder(Giggs, Park) coming inside to form a triangle with the players and opening up space for Evra to bomb forward. Young lacks both the intelligence and technical ability to play that role, Kagawa is the perfect player for it.
 
Brosstan said:
Yea its becoming obvious that Rooney's unwillingness to drop deep is harming the team shape. 2 strikers up top beside each other isolate them from the midfield - if he actually played like a no 10 and dropped deeper he would connect the midfield and RVP so much better, he would help us win the midfield battle, he would allow our second midfielder (not Carrick) to make forward runs into space without worrying too much about being hit on the counter, etc.

If Rooney puts all this second to his own personal ability to score goals and decide games then he should be dropped. Simple as..
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I've been saying this for a while. It upsets the balance of the team, and it's common knowledge that our midfield isn't the strongest so having someone unwilling to drop and support regularly can leave the two CMs our numbered, likely to be overrun, and with a hard task in trying to dominate a game. As well as that it leaves Moyes with very little room for manoeuvre in terms of the shape/formations he can use. Moyes can't really play 4-3-3 or 4-1-4-1 for example, since Rooney is dictating where he will and won't play, and has stated he will only drop into midfield for the last 10-15 mins if we're seeing a game out. It's an incredibly selfish stance to take and if anything it makes Moyes task more difficult. I read an interview when Moyes first signed where he said games are won and lost in lost midfield and that if the opposition play two in midfield you want to play three. Good luck with that David, with a sulky brattish Rooney insisting he only plays behind the striker, it leaves us rigid in that regard.


edit: found the article I was talking about:
Moyes stressed that upcoming coaches must take as gospel the old football maxim that matches are won and lost in midfield.
But he also argued that more attention than ever should be paid to the engine room, given the unprecedented tactical variety of the modern game.
Unsurprisingly, the new Manchester United manager was left enchanted by Bayern Munich’s play en route to the 2013 Champions League title, but the tactical innovations of the Swiss side Basle have also left him entranced.

‘David likes his coaching to be “game realistic”, said Fleeting. ‘He was talking about how everything these days goes through the middle of the park, so we try to play everything through that area (in our coaching).
‘If we were working on attacking wide areas, you still have to recognise that everything goes through the middle at some point — because that’s where the game is won. If someone is going to play three men in there, you’re going to want to play four in there.
‘Then there’s all the different shapes of a four-man midfield, while the Barcelona system, where they move about and there isn’t that consistency, is more common these days.
‘David spoke too about Bayern Munich and how much he admires their flexible style of football with Franck Ribery, Thomas Muller and Arjen Robben. Basle, too, and how they play with a three but with one coming in off the side. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...ffer-refuse-bring-coaching-methods-speed.html
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amolbhatia100 said:
Great posts, MoneyMay. I made this point the other day about Rooney playing too far forward against Sunderland leaving a hole in the place he should be dropping into to link play in the space between their defence and attackers. Nani and Januzaj often dropped deep into that area but personally I dont see a need for two men so far forward and neither is it helpful for the wide players to constantly come so central. Maybe sometimes to make an extra number but not by default.
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it all depends on the movements the coaches want. You can play well forward and exploit the hole between the mid and attack. You have to watch the players movements. Are they checking in and then out?, are they holding defenders in place or are they dragging them. You guys are too focussed on the positions drawn on a page rather than the actual movements of players.. You need to see if players hold space or open space up, you need to see what the timings of their runs are and if they run off the outside or inside shoulder of defenders to work out whats going on. Running off the inside shoulder does one thing, running off the outside shoulder does another. Are they playing in the defenders blind spot or are they trying to grab the defenders attention for either a team mates benefit or their own.?
Just saying players are playing too far forward means nothing without real context. Coaches can sometimes push players high up on the back line to create the hole between the def and midfield or they can ask two central strikers to play with distance between them so they create a space in between or they can play strikers close together to create gaps out wide. The movement is the key bit. Nobody ever speaks of the actual players movements and why they are moving the way they do. There is a serious lack of creativity in the thinking in these threads.
Wide players sometimes come infield to allow fullbacks space to attack. You have to ask why these things are happening and look at what happens after you see players moving in to these spaces.
 
UnofficialDevil said:
Nope.
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SAF wouldn't speak of his admiration for other teams? Seriously?

Also it's a bit of an obsession for our fans to expect Moyes to only do what SAF would do. Expected I suppose since some of us have never known another manager until now, but at the same time he is his own man.
 
UnofficialDevil said:
I just don't like our manager publicly admiring how Bazel plays thats all.
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I find you taking umbrage with that weird. Every manager speaks of other teams from time to time. Especially when they've done well in the CL/EL. Fergie spoke about how well Dortmund were doing in the competition last season and tipped them to win it.
Also Moyes was hardly gushing to all of the media, it's a private conversation which someone decided to tell to the papers.
 
pocco said:
I seriously wish you would. Yeah, we get it, you hate Moyes and you can't even bring yourself to hoping he does well for the sake of the team you support. Move along to the next club, dipshit.
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Pocco why don't you fecking move along you and every other fecking poster that just thinks he can come along and call someone a retard. I dont have to explain my self to posters like you, I dont hate Moyes and have never said I hope he doesn't do well, on the contrary, I certainly wont have a nobody like you to tell me to move on to another club after supporting it for 30 years. Again feck off.
 
pocco said:
I seriously wish you would. Yeah, we get it, you hate Moyes and you can't even bring yourself to hoping he does well for the sake of the team you support. Move along to the next club, dipshit.
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:lol:
 
He's right games are usually won and lost in CM.
 
What's wrong with a manager praising and admiring other clubs? Believe it or not Manchester and England is NOT the center of the football universe.
 
UnofficialDevil said:
Yep praising Barcelona and Bazel is the same thing.
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What sort of mental state must you be in to go on a crusade against Moyes praising 'Bazel' (Basel)? I just don't get it. Fergie used to talk about all sorts of clubs, giving them praise. Basel have beat both us and Chelsea over the last few years, they must be doing something right.
 
MoneyMay said:
Good point and, yes, you do have the right picture, mate, but I'd have to disagree. Our primary tactic was to move ball down the wing and cross it in - I think that's what was said from Moyes. It's nothing different to the Liverpool game. In truth, it caused us a lot of problems building from the back. At times, we hoofed the ball up, which is really frustrating. I mean, take a look at our first goal scored. This is genius all round from Carrick, Januzaj, Nani, and RvP IMO:

6glj.png

Already, as displayed, there is midfield superiority for Sunderland in their own half. Nani drops deep to collect the ball from Carrick, but it's a 3 v 4 situation. Usually, it would be 3 v 3, but due to Giaccherini being infield, it gave them midfield superiority. It was this narrow shape that worked against Sunderland at times because it meant we could use our width. In taking a narrow, compact shape, Sunderland left Evra and Cleverley open... And in the end, it was a mixture of movement and width that broke their midfield shape. Note how Januzaj is surrounded by a couple of players, but the movement shown in the later pictures frees him up.

3v64.png

0urm.png

Nani's options are limited, but Van Persie drops deep to offer himself as an outlet. He receives the pass (from Nani), dragging the centre-back out of position, and then he takes up a position centrally to offer himself as an outlet. Prior to this, Januzaj was surrounded by four players, so if he had picked up the ball from Carrick/Nani early on, it would have been hard to turn and switch the ball to the left. Our objective was to switch the ball to the left, but we had to do it in a subtle way. In the third image above, Sunderland have put too much focus on Van Persie. Cattermole's positional awareness was poor in this situation... He's not tight enough to Januzaj, but Carrick's first time ball (IMO, he's the best first time passer in the league) was exactly what we needed. And now, United have a 4 v 4 in the middle, but they've also got two options - Cleverley and Evra - who are completely free on the left, to use as outlets.

i1q7.png

Januzaj finally picks up the ball, but now he has time to manoeuvre and pass the ball to Evra, who has a lot of space. Now, Sunderland's narrow shape is completely broken. And thanks to Rooney's movement, Evra had more space than he should have. Against a block that is narrow, the easiest thing to do - to break the shape - is overload the middle and then play the ball wide. Width is imperative and for Evra's poor defending in the last two games, he adds so much to our shape. Van Persie dropping deep is the most pivotal aspect of this goal. That's what I wanted Rooney to do in the first half. It doesn't mean he has to constantly drop deep and pick out through balls or anything of that sort, but there is a massive advantage for us because of the narrowness of Sunderland's block.
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Nice analysis! Keep on doing those :)
 
pocco said:
What sort of mental state must you be in to go on a crusade against Moyes praising 'Bazel' (Basel)? I just don't get it. Fergie used to talk about all sorts of clubs, giving them praise. Basel have beat both us and Chelsea over the last few years, they must be doing something right.
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Sorry about that, I'd just had an argument and didn't come here in the right mood.
 
I am not surprised that Moyes admire Basel. They have beaten some strong sides in the past despite relying on a ridiculous budget. It wouldn't be a bad idea to learn one or two things from them
 
devilish said:
I am not surprised that Moyes admire Basel. They have beaten some strong sides in the past despite relying on a ridiculous budget. It wouldn't be a bad idea to learn one or two things from them
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No there is nothing wrong obviously, what I'm not to keen on is going public with it. Plus its meant be the other way round, like smaller clubs like Basel are meant admire us for example?
 
UnofficialDevil said:
No there is nothing wrong obviously, what I'm not to keen on is going public with it. Plus its meant be the other way round, like smaller clubs like Basel are meant admire us for example?
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Read the article and you'll see he didn't 'go public with it' though I'm not sure what the problem would be if he did.
The so-called 'smaller teams' can play good football too. Reeks of a superiority complex to think we can't praise or admire smaller teams who play well.
 
UnofficialDevil said:
No there is nothing wrong obviously, what I'm not to keen on is going public with it. Plus its meant be the other way round, like smaller clubs like Basel are meant admire us for example?
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Some of the things United did in the past were admirable (challenging the FA to take part in the CL, building 3 great sides made mainly of youths, making a football club a successful business story, knocking Liverpool off their perch etc) and I am sure that everyone admires them. However apart from that why should they admire us? We're one of the biggest clubs in the world with finances that dwarf 99% of clubs, Basel included. If we had to take the argument out of the football world environment it would be like me and you admiring Bill Gates for being able to make ends meet till the end of the month
 
devilish said:
Some of the things United did in the past were admirable (challenging the FA to take part in the CL, building 3 great sides made mainly of youths, making a football club a successful business story, knocking Liverpool off their perch etc) and I am sure that everyone admires them. However apart from that why should they admire us? We're one of the biggest clubs in the world with finances that dwarf 99% of clubs, Basel included. If we had to take the argument out of the football world environment it would be like me and you admiring Bill Gates for being able to make ends meet till the end of the month
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Yeah but with that argument we shouldn't admire Barca either, also one of the biggest clubs in the world with finances that dwarf 99% of clubs, I'm saying we are meant to be admired for the football we play, and given the fact that like you said we are one of the biggest clubs with huge finances then we should be playing football to be admired.
 
UnofficialDevil said:
Yeah but with that argument we shouldn't admire Barca either, also one of the biggest clubs in the world with finances that dwarf 99% of clubs, I'm saying we are meant to be admired for the football we play, and given the fact that like you said we are one of the biggest clubs with huge finances then we should be playing football to be admired.
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We admire them because despite having their same resources (more or less) we're nowhere near to their class. We also admire them because they managed to build a World class side which relies heavily on youths same as Busby and SAF did in the past.

We've made some bad decisions in recent past and we won mainly not because of the strategy taken but in spite of it. Some key players left (either to age or because they were sold) and we had played safe by either sticking to what we've got (ex Ando, Cleverley etc) or bringing in EPL proven player who were nowhere near to their class and would never be (ex Valencia, Young, etc). However even if our team was stronger then AC Milan in its heights, Barca, Bayern and the treble winning side combined I see nothing wrong in admiring Basel. They've built a good solid side with a ridiculous budget. That demands respect.

In my opinion our biggest problem is this arrogance that had sipped in. How many times have we heard the usual phrases. No one can replace Paul Scholes (which is kind of ridiculous since at 35 Paul was nowhere near to his prime and could be easily be replaced), a player should do his very best to sign with us (hello they are employees. Football is their job nothing more) etc. We're not the center of the Universe and others had been doing better then we do. The earlier we acknowledge that the better
 
UnofficialDevil said:
I just don't like our manager publicly admiring how Bazel plays thats all.


And no SAF wouldn't and yes I have supported United before SAF.

Another thing I dint like was him saying we don't have enough world class players to win the CL.
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You're a Ihni binni dimi diniwiny anitaime.
 
Stack said:
it all depends on the movements the coaches want. You can play well forward and exploit the hole between the mid and attack. You have to watch the players movements. Are they checking in and then out?, are they holding defenders in place or are they dragging them. You guys are too focussed on the positions drawn on a page rather than the actual movements of players.. You need to see if players hold space or open space up, you need to see what the timings of their runs are and if they run off the outside or inside shoulder of defenders to work out whats going on. Running off the inside shoulder does one thing, running off the outside shoulder does another. Are they playing in the defenders blind spot or are they trying to grab the defenders attention for either a team mates benefit or their own.?
Just saying players are playing too far forward means nothing without real context. Coaches can sometimes push players high up on the back line to create the hole between the def and midfield or they can ask two central strikers to play with distance between them so they create a space in between or they can play strikers close together to create gaps out wide. The movement is the key bit. Nobody ever speaks of the actual players movements and why they are moving the way they do. There is a serious lack of creativity in the thinking in these threads.
Wide players sometimes come infield to allow fullbacks space to attack. You have to ask why these things are happening and look at what happens after you see players moving in to these spaces.
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But I've already highlighted this and you choose to ignore it. I've already set the context: Moyes wanted us to play like this vs. Sunderland. Januzaj and Nani - mostly Nani in the first half and mostly Januzaj in the second half - drifted in to offer themselves as outlets. However, that still doesn't excuse the fact we had a hard time building play from the back because there was no outlet in the middle of the pitch. I lost count of how many times Carrick looked up and then had to turn back because of the lack of options. Our wingers drifting in was a recurring theme, but it wasn't constant. Re strikers movement: Rooney and Van Persie are making identical movements, I don't see how, in any way, that is beneficiary to the side at all. In the second half, Rooney and Van Persie dropped deep - and as you can see from the first goal, this is the movement that should have been put into place in the first half. You talk about the lack of "creative thinking" - whatever that means in this context - but you patently forget that Moyes made a slight change in his tactics in the first half to match what amolbhatia100 said. It's not even a case of wanting Kagawa (or insert any other #10), it's a case of knowing when a game plan works (second half) and when it fails (first half).
 
MoneyMay said:
But I've already highlighted this and you choose to ignore it. I've already set the context: Moyes wanted us to play like this vs. Sunderland. Januzaj and Nani - mostly Nani in the first half and mostly Januzaj in the second half - drifted in to offer themselves as outlets. However, that still doesn't excuse the fact we had a hard time building play from the back because there was no outlet in the middle of the pitch. I lost count of how many times Carrick looked up and then had to turn back because of the lack of options. Our wingers drifting in was a recurring theme, but it wasn't constant. Re strikers movement: Rooney and Van Persie are making identical movements, I don't see how, in any way, that is beneficiary to the side at all. In the second half, Rooney and Van Persie dropped deep - and as you can see from the first goal, this is the movement that should have been put into place in the first half. You talk about the lack of "creative thinking" - whatever that means in this context - but you patently forget that Moyes made a slight change in his tactics in the first half to match what amolbhatia100 said. It's not even a case of wanting Kagawa (or insert any other #10), it's a case of knowing when a game plan works (second half) and when it fails (first half).
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It just seems counter productive to have players with better ability than the opposition and then to have two of your main attackers so far forward leaving way too much space between them and the rest of the team and made it extremely hard for us to get them involved.

Even when Nani and Januzaj came central to pick up the ball, they were driving at the opposition pulling fullbacks with them, hence leaving acres of space for the fullback to run into. They were coming deep to actually try and playmake. It just seemed to be a bit of an odd set up.
 
We should only praise teams better than us. Admiration for those beneath us should really be.. beneath us.
 
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