David Moyes - The Tactician
- Thread starter amolbhatia50k
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That got gay quick. But that's ok because gays are people too.
Anyway, I like reading tactical stuff like this. I have played sport and Will say I understand games but the detailed nuances do escape me as I've never played many 11-a-side matches. I also appreciate anyone who's going to go full nerd on shit like this (thats a compliment btw). Keep up the good work MM.
Anyway, I like reading tactical stuff like this. I have played sport and Will say I understand games but the detailed nuances do escape me as I've never played many 11-a-side matches. I also appreciate anyone who's going to go full nerd on shit like this (thats a compliment btw). Keep up the good work MM.
Sir Alex always said he admired the way Juventus played.
That in itself is somewhat of a problem for me. He looks up for a pass and turns back. He imo in theory should be looking up, seeing if there is nothing on and moving the ball with feet left or right or even forward to make an option for another pass. That in itself helps to open up play. It is imo one of the main reason that some of the roles around the park have been a bit alienated. Whether it's a 15, 25, 30 yard pass that is a chance and when Carrick 'has' to play it, he does. Rather than moving the ball with feet to open up another avenue to get the ball.
Something tied a little bit into his silly laser drilling of the ball that players can barely control.
Ah, Rooney is the subject again. Brwned made a good point in the Rooney thread after the Sunderland game, but average positioning is very misleading, so technically they're not executing the same role and one is playing further ahead than the other when team is on the ball. I don't think anyone is concerned about Rooney off the ball. I mean, of course, he's not always at the tip of the triangle, but it's not his defensive duties that are the problem, though he was defensively average last season. It's his positioning when we have the ball. At the start of the season, he was more or less playing in the same position as last season... and the season before that... and the season before that. As I said, average positioning maps aren't very good to show positions of attacking players. I usually use them to see how compact teams are between the lines are, but heat maps are better. Make no mistake about it, Rooney has played as a second striker in most games this season, but it's worrying seeing him further forward because it creates a structural problem for us. I've also said that this has been a problem in last two games, so before anyone misquotes me... yeah.
The first image above is of Ozil's most frequent positions in the first half vs. West Brom, away from home. The second image is that of Rooney's vs. Sunderland. Ozil is linking the midfield and attack well and, if you view where he receives the ball, then you would know that there is a fundamental difference in the role he plays, compared to Rooney's. But what's interesting is that Rooney is more involved in the box, than the central area, where we really needed him. I made this point in the previous page, that we are playing more of a 4-2-2-2, with the wingers coming in. Because of the excellent skill-set of Januzaj and Nani, we can afford to do that, but it creates a problem for us centrally when trying to build attacks, evident again, against Southampton. In fact, against Sunderland, if you look at Rooney's passes, he never really functioned well, until the last 15 minutes of the game, where he picked up the ball deep and slowed play down.
I've decided to screenshot these particular images, which were all in the first half. (The second half was no different). In the first image, Carrick turns, and his main job in this position is to find one of his team mates. There are two problems... Fellaini's positioning is awful, he's too far away... And the other problem is that Rooney isn't deep to make himself a passing option. (Southampton have marked the flanks tightly, so that there are no quick counters on these sides.) In the second image, it's Van Persie collecting the ball and passing it to the wings. Move progresses, with a cross into the box... Even when we scored the goal, it highlighted Rooney's current role clearly (see third and fourth images). Carrick picks up the ball as an auxiliary third centre-back and HAS to play a long ball into Januzaj. Rooney has no intention of dropping deep. Well done to Rooney for the run, but this is his more selfish role in action. Very simple... I don't think much needs to be said.
We have played a 4-2-2-2-ish formation in the last two games. This is not working well for us at all at the moment, primarily because you need a good dribbler to run into the space that Rooney leaves behind him. Herrera would have made sense. Anyway, I just thought I'd post the screen shots of the Southampton game because some weren't really noticing his positioning vs. Sunderland.
Also I've kept the images massive. It looks better IMO.
The first image above is of Ozil's most frequent positions in the first half vs. West Brom, away from home. The second image is that of Rooney's vs. Sunderland. Ozil is linking the midfield and attack well and, if you view where he receives the ball, then you would know that there is a fundamental difference in the role he plays, compared to Rooney's. But what's interesting is that Rooney is more involved in the box, than the central area, where we really needed him. I made this point in the previous page, that we are playing more of a 4-2-2-2, with the wingers coming in. Because of the excellent skill-set of Januzaj and Nani, we can afford to do that, but it creates a problem for us centrally when trying to build attacks, evident again, against Southampton. In fact, against Sunderland, if you look at Rooney's passes, he never really functioned well, until the last 15 minutes of the game, where he picked up the ball deep and slowed play down.
I've decided to screenshot these particular images, which were all in the first half. (The second half was no different). In the first image, Carrick turns, and his main job in this position is to find one of his team mates. There are two problems... Fellaini's positioning is awful, he's too far away... And the other problem is that Rooney isn't deep to make himself a passing option. (Southampton have marked the flanks tightly, so that there are no quick counters on these sides.) In the second image, it's Van Persie collecting the ball and passing it to the wings. Move progresses, with a cross into the box... Even when we scored the goal, it highlighted Rooney's current role clearly (see third and fourth images). Carrick picks up the ball as an auxiliary third centre-back and HAS to play a long ball into Januzaj. Rooney has no intention of dropping deep. Well done to Rooney for the run, but this is his more selfish role in action. Very simple... I don't think much needs to be said.
We have played a 4-2-2-2-ish formation in the last two games. This is not working well for us at all at the moment, primarily because you need a good dribbler to run into the space that Rooney leaves behind him. Herrera would have made sense. Anyway, I just thought I'd post the screen shots of the Southampton game because some weren't really noticing his positioning vs. Sunderland.
Also I've kept the images massive. It looks better IMO.
I can only appreciate the effort you post into your posts M.M, the way Carrick is so isolated in the pics you posted is crazy.
Yes but we still should have battered the shit out of them!
Good post as usual moneymay.
We all keep beating about this and I really hope Moyes decides to do something about it. Sometimes I really wonder at how we manage to get our shape so oddly wrong. What's the point in having everyone so far apart and isolating your midfield? There's a limit to this whole "let's stretch the opposition as much as we can" theory. We've for a long time been a team with players too far apart. We've just responded to that by allowing our number 10 to play even further forward.
We all keep beating about this and I really hope Moyes decides to do something about it. Sometimes I really wonder at how we manage to get our shape so oddly wrong. What's the point in having everyone so far apart and isolating your midfield? There's a limit to this whole "let's stretch the opposition as much as we can" theory. We've for a long time been a team with players too far apart. We've just responded to that by allowing our number 10 to play even further forward.
No we shouldn't. You have to earn victories. You can just feck putting out poor performances by players and managers but still have some right to batter decent and well set up teams.
Yes we should have! And I'm tired of this crap about how great Southampton were with all these post mortems. Teams have come and had good possession before and we have carved out better chances and won games.
Same on Saturday, we hit the woodwork twice and despite their possession we should have scored before their goal. End of!
And they had some good chances too. A really simple one early on. We weren't unlucky. We just were that great and a draw wasn't a very unfair result.
Excellent post again MoneyMay. Really good demonstrations of the points some of us have made lately.
It's been blatantly obvious and the heat maps clearly show how Özil spends more time as a number ten, in central areas (and in his own half) offering himself as an option. Our passing would be so much more fluid if we were more compact - not overly narrow but just not as spread out and far apart as we are playing at the moment. I also think the wingers tucking in might help (playing wide at times but coming inside a bit too) because them they're closer to the two CMs and the two CFs and interplay and decent 1-2s are easier.
It's been blatantly obvious and the heat maps clearly show how Özil spends more time as a number ten, in central areas (and in his own half) offering himself as an option. Our passing would be so much more fluid if we were more compact - not overly narrow but just not as spread out and far apart as we are playing at the moment. I also think the wingers tucking in might help (playing wide at times but coming inside a bit too) because them they're closer to the two CMs and the two CFs and interplay and decent 1-2s are easier.
MoneyMay. I can't really remember the incident but you say that Carrick turned on the ball but which way? There is literally no option to play a first time pass to Fellaini unless he plays a risky late cut style touch. Carrick is not known for being able to control a pass, draw a player then open up the space. But from this still he really should be playing a first time ball for Rafael and then pushing past the press and recieving another touch to open up play. Alternatively Fellaini breaks his poor movement and links up centrally with the same square ball.
It's these little simple movement based things that just aren't happening in midfield. Carrick want's medium range as fast as possible passes to attempt first time or quick touch and when he's pressed he doesn't have the control to do that in an attacking sense.
Essentially for Carrick to offer a combination with Cleverley (and maybe Fellaini? But not really seen the similar play style to Cleverley) he needs to be doing more of this draw-pass-return for a pass. It's Tom's bread and butter to get a ball and lay it off and move forward to a better position to get the ball back and if he's not then he becomes a totally pointless player in that deep midfield role.
Also it's obvious the mobility is not coming from those positions when Fellaini and Carrick play together which is also probably a gelling together issue and Fellaini assimilating himself into the squad issue more than anything. But frightening if this is the type of player that Fellaini is and why they've introduced him to this system. I just can't see why they would introduce this type of player.
He turned back and was going to pass the ball through the two Southampton players, where the red arrow is. But he was dispossessed. The poor positioning of Fellaini and the new role for Rooney are equally to blame for this. Carrick is a very good first time passer of the ball, but I think he wanted us to exploit the middle of the pitch as Southampton's main priority was covering our wings, which they did really well.
It's not really anything to do with Fellaini or Rooney. There is no first time ball from Carrick's 6 all the way around to about his 10 o'clock (12 being the way he's facing) and even if he takes a touch and turns it's still another poor piece of individual decision making at that particular time. I don't personally think that Rooney or Fellaini have anything to do with it. It's not really a tactical issue as much as an individual error from Carrick.
Rafael made the run forward to provide the extra width with Nani coming back so deep and turning to play the ball square there is probably a problem right there in the fact that Rafael is making a crazy overlapping run in our own half which isn't ideal. If he's stayed back offering a second option for either Carrick or Nani to pass and receive it would alleviate some of the burden that Carrick has when offered up this hospital ball. I said in the other thread we are creating a bit of an isolated 4-2 deep and 3-1 up formation with the passing ranges being made more and more difficult by not offering up a link player. Which is what you're talking about when you say that Rooney is the culprit I think that it is equally mirrored by the 4-2 not having a player linking up play for the players up field. In this case Fellaini.
Mobility is an issue as well as I said that needs to be sorted and quick smart. There are only a handful of ways to beat the fast pressing opposition and one of them is to be tighter, sharper and neater technically as well as tactically aware enough to force the space in front of the ball carrier to open up quicker transition passes. Something derived from this lack of mobility in the center of the park.
Moneymay, great job articulating what most of us feel isn't right with our team now. Have you noticed a change in our defensive line under Moyes? We seem to defend very deep.
Based on your tactical analyses, I have assembled our most strategically astute team:
---------------------DDG----------------------
RAFAEL-----EVANS-----SMALLING-----EVRA
-----------CARRICK-----CLEVERLEY---------
-------NANI------KAGAWA------WELBECK---
---------------------RVP------------------------
---------------------DDG----------------------
RAFAEL-----EVANS-----SMALLING-----EVRA
-----------CARRICK-----CLEVERLEY---------
-------NANI------KAGAWA------WELBECK---
---------------------RVP------------------------
The thing about good movement and good runs in the centre is that not only is it to make yourself available for a a pass, it also sometimes drags their CMs out to create more space for a team mate to drop into. That's one of the benefits about having Cleverley in the team, he's on the move a lot, and I think it would be similar if Kagawa was playing a bit more.
I disagree with some of what you said. Fellaini's positional sense was average for most of the game. He has to simply drop next to Carrick. He's too far away. Looking at it another way, Evra is too narrow. In a two-man partnership, you can't get away with poor positioning like this. You leave your team mate with one less option. I do agree that Carrick made the wrong decision, but the main point of the picture wasn't to berate him for this, it was to highlight Fellaini's poor positional sense at a particular time and Rooney not dropping deep to collect the ball.
Yeah, there's one change to our full backs, though not defensively. They have more responsibility to add width, as Nani and Januzaj move centrally. We'll need a new left back, as I don't think Fabío is rated highly by Moyes in this position. The best candidate is Coentrao. His skill-set is better than Baines'. He's a better dribbler and that's what we need. The defensive line-up is pretty much the same, we can't play a high line with Vidic and Ferdinand... Jones and Evans refreshing last Saturday.
I don't think there's such thing as the best formation. When you enter a match, every formation is neutral... Each has advantages and weaknesses. What wins you the game is how you use the formation. Is it a rigid 4-4-2? Is there a second striker to help build play? Do full backs play narrow when in possession of the ball? And so on.
Fantastic posts MoneyMay. Always a pleasure reading your analysis. And once again, it's bang on about how most of us feel about our wrong tactics and team shape.
Have you stopped doing these MoneyMay? Interested to hear your thoughts on our midfield. Considering the struggling combo of Cleverley and Carrick against Stoke and then the complete 180 with Cleverley and Jones.
I'll try and get something up for the Stoke game. I've been busy, apologies. I do remember a couple of things (I'll share more when I re-watch the game). Kagawa wasn't quick enough to close down players on the right when we were in defensive transition because he was often too central. Evra also caused us a problem because he didn't close down the right winger/right back for Stoke, instead he dropped deep and allowed crosses in. It defeats the whole system of having Smalling as a right back. Smalling, Jones, and Evans enough to combat threat. Conversely, in transition attack, there was no outlet on the left (at times). Play confined to central areas and when Stoke RB dropped very central next to centre-backs, he left a lot of space down his right (our left), which we didn't use well.
Hey I am not pressuring you, just curious mate!
Haha, I know. 
Good job with the screenshots selected, ridiculous how difficult task Carrick has faced for some time now. We can be decent in possession and movement when we actually bother to set the camp in the opposition's half but the lack of movement at transition period is worrying.
It looked to me as though Januzaj played a lot deeper in the "Rooney" role against Norwich than Wayne has been doing this season. He didn't link with Hernandez that much, instead combining with Zaha and Young, who would then look for Hernandez. I thought Adnan did well enough to merit more opportunities in the role against better opponents.
Thought he could have dropped deeper myself.
Against Norwich I thought Adnan started playing quite high, but then dropped deeper as he grew into the game. Saw him a good few times collecting the ball right down by Rio-Vidic. Also pressed to win the ball back in the middle a few times. I thought he played the role well, and because Norwich were offering little threat, we didn't spend as much time in our own half so he didn't need to be quite so deep.
Not diminsihing the lads game, but Norwich was in no way btter than the Saints! Saints were really up there pressurizing and chasing up every ball. Norwich played like they already gave up the match the night before.
I think you have the problems right, but the answer wrong.
Carrick is playing way too deep. He helps the defence more than the midfield. With talented CB's and a settled in GK, Carrick should be playing more up the field than he is now. Breaking up play is good, but without proper support in middle he cannot link up with forwards.
Your comparison to Ozil is also misleading, as Arsenal play a midlle 2 of Flamini, who does a similar job to Carrick, but Ramsey's role is key here as it allows both Ozil and Wilshere to operate in more advanced roles than you wnat Rooney to operate under, something we lack in Fellaini. Playing Kagawa does not make any difference as without proper support through the middle, the link up play still suffers.
Rooney is being played as a supporting striker, whereas the popular fan demand here is for him to be a AM, which are completely different roles depedning on the formation we play (4-4-2 vs 4-2-3-1).
But then, excellant analysis with brilliant supporting pictures!
I disagree. Carrick has a couple of functions to do, one of which is to drop deep and start constructing the attack. That's been his job for a quite a while, so I don't see why it should change when he's pretty good at what he does. Even when Fellaini is an advanced position, Rooney isn't deep enough to collect the ball.
The comparison to Ozil is valid (as we played with Cleverley vs. Sunderland) - they play in the same position, but point was how they both played away from home. One was linking play and played very deep, whereas the other was involved more in the box than central areas. Point was that this shouldn't be the approach, especially away from home. It's inexcusable from Moyes' side to even have Rooney play as a centre-forward. Either play him behind Van Persie, or play Kagawa behind Rooney, it's that simple. Otherwise, we're going to suffer centrally. When play is confined to the wings - and centre-forwards wait for a cross - we struggle to build. Look at the Real Sociedad game, for example. We looked much, much better.
Finally, Rooney has played as a centre-forward in two games: Sunderland and Southampton. A support striker, second striker, etc. is where he usually plays and it's his best position IMO.
Not sure, but then he is a DM. Would you by an chance have a comparison of the operating areas of Carrick vs Yaya or other DM's? Would be an interesting analysis, I think.
The comparison with Rooney to Ozil is incorrect as Ozil has the support of Wilshere, Ramsey and probably Rosicky too who can move in when he wanders out. This gives them a more fluid formation capable of much more flexibility that what is offered to Rooney now. Apart from Januzaj who slips in, no one operates around the box centre field. Even RvP tends to drift to a box corner to make his run in's. If Rooney is dropping deep, we still would find it difficult to get it into the box.
The problem is with the lack of midfielder to bridge Carrick & Rooney, not Rooney dropping deep!
I wouldn't compare him to Yaya Touré because he spends more time attacking than defending. His positional sense is awful, and thus that leaves Fernandinho with a lot to do. Take a look at the games against us and Bayern Munich (Navas had to cover for Touré). You can take a look a this. Scroll down and click on player positions.
I still disagree, not about the system, but about the positions. Rooney can move to the right, left, centre, wherever, that has been evident since his role change in 10/11, but in two games, there was little freedom for him. It's not a case of a lack of midfielder, it's a case of the tactics hindering our fluidity. You can take a look at the pictures in the previous page - notice the difference between Roonen vs. Manchester City compared to vs. Sunderland and Southampton. Even in the game against Real Sociedad, he played his usual second striker role, and we looked much, much better.
Anyway, we've got a game away to Fulham, so hopefully Moyes continues with his current utilisation of Rooney.
Bland, uninspiring midfield selection that smacks of a lack of creativity. I know we're hampered a little by injuries, but leaving Kagawa and Nani on the sidelines, as well as an in-form Hernandez, doesn't inspire confidence. Fulham have been in poor form this season and we should be looking to stick the boot in and build on our good results of late.
I just hope this team selection isn't the catalyst to a lacklustre 1-1 draw. We can't afford to be dropping any more points to bottom half teams.
I just hope this team selection isn't the catalyst to a lacklustre 1-1 draw. We can't afford to be dropping any more points to bottom half teams.
0-3 half time. Annnnnnnnd Nah.
hahahahahahahahahaha
If he keeps this up we'll have 40 points in no time.
He's got to have some credit today.
Started with Evans/Vidic, played Valencia after a couple of poor performances from Nani on the right, gave Januzaj the nod and his surprise midfield selection of Cleverley and Jones has done a great job. Good decision to bench Fellaini, the mobility of Cleverley and Jones has been important today.
Started with Evans/Vidic, played Valencia after a couple of poor performances from Nani on the right, gave Januzaj the nod and his surprise midfield selection of Cleverley and Jones has done a great job. Good decision to bench Fellaini, the mobility of Cleverley and Jones has been important today.
We've been very good and I'm happy that my initial reservations have been proven to be misplaced. For what it's worth, I fancied us to beat Fulham today even after seeing the line-ups, but there was still a side of me that was wishing Nani and Kagawa started the game.
I also said it (not sure if it was in this thread) but if there was any team where we'd get away with Jones and Cleverley in midfield it would have been against a Fulham side containing Sidwell and Parker. I hope the Jones midfield experiment is only stop-gap for now.
Nothing wrong with having reservations.