David Moyes - The Tactician
- Thread starter amolbhatia50k
- Start date
Nothing wrong, just the likes of Stack and ghali are vultures waiting to pounce on anyone who doesn't share their uber-optimism.
You were wrong, shock horror. Human being in not being perfect shocker. Nothing wrong with having reservations like I said.
Cleverley just looks infinitely a better player when he has a midfield partner that is mobile.
Without Carrick, I thought that Evans and Vidic were most responsible for starting attacks, rather than Cleverley/Jones. Long ball to Van Persie for the first goal - and Fulham caught with a high line. Jones' run took away three defenders I think, though I feel it was an "unconscious" decision, he opened up space for Valencia to direct his shot to. Also noticed Rafael more conservative when Van Persie dropped to right wing, so instead of Van Persie, Valencia, and Rafael on the right, we had two attacking players. Will take another look.
Main reason for that is neither Jones or Cleverley tend to look to take it off the centre backs. For Jones its understandable as he's not comfortable centre midfield but it's one of Cleverleys weaknesses.
Those runs to open up space at this level are rarely an unconscious decision, quite often they get a call from a team mate to "check out" or "check in". Vidic may have even made a call. He was hunting for options in the few seconds leading up to that pass and had none on, he kept the ball a little longer than usual.
Why is it Cleverley's weakness?
He's mainly played when next to Carrick. Carrick is the deep player who rarely gets forward unless it's necessary. Seems a bit strange to me to mark that as a weakness in Cleverley's game as he's not playing in a dynamic two he's playing as the more attacking player in the midfield two. He shouldn't really touch the ball from deep unless Carrick is ahead of him but that is a rare occasion.
Even more likely that he was dragging players consciously then, mate
He doesn't show to receive the ball enough for me. That's a weakness in any midfielder especially central.
Fair enough. I can't really agree with that at all. His whole game is based on showing for the ball, passing it off and looking for it again. When he's that deep it's almost ineffective as he's deep because he has to be doing the legwork for Carrick in dangerous areas. As Carrick doesn't usually show for a second ball after he passes it off to Cleverley from deep areas.
To me it was just an instinctive decision to get forward and try and score. I doubt he was storming up the field thinking in his head 'yes my defenders TO ME TO ME!' he was probably thinking 'square it and I'll get a tap in'.
I think Moyes should bench Carrick more. He is 32 and we should look to get a permanent replacement asap, and it is not Jones.
Carrick plays way too deep and I keep thinking he would be better in a 3 man midfield, which we do not play.
Carrick plays way too deep and I keep thinking he would be better in a 3 man midfield, which we do not play.
But he's 32 and a midfielder, he's not going to go shit suddenly. He's in his prime right now I would say. He can go on for a bit longer.
3 years is maximum IMO and that's pushing it. It's all well saying midfielders can go into their late 30s while performing but they are few and far between who can still maintain the very top level then and you need to factor in the fact that Carrick basically played in all United's games in the past 2 or 3 seasons. I'd expect him to be good this season and perhaps next season too but beyond that it's anyone's guess.
I'd rather we got a replacement in early and used Carrick as a bit part player, especially in Europe, next season. We realistically still need to sign 2 midfielders next Summer and it won't be any easier than it was now.
Giggs played loads of our games, at the same age and look where he is now. I agree, we should have our replacement lined up already, but as long as Carrick can still do it he should be starting most games. I'm not saying Carrick is like giggs, a bloody machine that is, but I hope he can age as well as Giggs, and the way he plays I can see him doing it.
But you can't expect Carrick to maintain the same pace at 34 or 35. Giggs is a freak and even he wasn't really good enough to play week in week out at that age and gradually turned into more of an impact player (he was quite good between 2008 and 2011 mind). Thing is not many players have the same strict regime that Giggs employed when he turned 30 or so, every little thing he's done since has been focused on allowing him to play professionally for as long as possible and few players are capable of putting so much focus to that. I remember reading article where Giggs said that he even picks a car based on the comfort of seating so that his back feels well. A lot of different factors play a part in player's fitness at this age and playing style is just one of them, Carrick has to have everything else spot on to age in a similar manner to Giggs.
Fair enough, but Pirlo seems able to do it too and he's not a freak like Giggs or Zanetti.
Physically he already looks like he's fading a little bit. Been a touch slow this season and also worrying in the tackle department. When a player like Carrick who is known for his interceptions is currently leading the league and killing it at 4.3 a game (way up from last year) but his tackling is still rock bottom at 1.8 a game it tells you why Cleverley is struggling to synergize with him (having made the same number of tackles). He just gets bogged down playing deep having to close opponetns and herd the play because Carrick sits off opponents way to much. (As shown by the int to tackles stat)
Just to put that into perspective a genuine clogger in Mile Jedinak is second behind him in interceptions with 37 but has nearly 3 times the amount of completed tackles at 42 (to Carricks 16). I think that tells a massive 'mobility issue' story right there.
In fact, we don't have a single player according to whoscored (all stats in this post are) who has made over 20 tackles. Compare that to a team such as Southampton who have 4 players who have made over 20 tackles and Morgan Schneiderlin who has completed 42 tackles. That is pretty alarming.
I think you are quoting exceptions. Of all the midfielders, only a small % are able to sustain at that age.
Is it more of a case of him and the coaching staff realising that his strength is in reading the play and nipping in, or is he genuinely physically struggling a little bit? That's the question. I can't quite find his per game stats from last season and the season before so it'll be interesting to see how it stacks up over a few seasons.
Personally I think his is the type of game that'll age well. He doesn't rely on his physical abilities and is entirely about intelligent reading of the game. Of course this isn't to say that he'll be able to go on week-in-week-out, practically playing every game till his late 30s, but I'm fairly confident that he can keep up a similar level of performance with the odd break in between games. How his body will hold up to injury is another matter. So far his fitness record has been very good, but we never know with these things as players get older.
Last year in both Int and tackling he was way down. At 40/50th in the league for both. His game at the moment would serve from someone like Schneiderlin doing the leg work and him playing the role that Cleverley plays.
Pirlo has a different level of talent though.
But its not about talent when it comes to sustaining your career physically which we are talking about.
This I agree with. Schneiderlin has been good since last season, but it's nice to see him getting some attention this year. Seems like he's got a good head on top of his shoulders as well. Would be one of my dark horse picks for a Jan/summer signing. Certainly looks like the perfect complement to Carrick and what we've been missing out on since Fletcher got ill.
Carrick is just having his usual slow start to the season. Fergie even said slow starts are usual for Carrick in his book. Last season when he started well (minus the games at CB) were the exception rather than the rule. And he's hardly the tough tackling sort throwing himself into tackles all over the pitch anyway. He reads the game well enough to not need to do that all the time. Tackles are usually last ditch and Carrick often positions himself so that he can close down the space, cut off peoples options and slips in to intercept the ball. I don't think it's alarming it's just not really his game. We have made the most interceptions in the league as a team which makes tackles less necessary. Southampton are 15th in the league in terms of interceptions iirc. That's why they're tackling more.
It's your talent that helps you sustain your level once the legs go. It's why you see giggs, pirlo and zidane wowing crowds at 35 plus.
Okay fair enough, but there has to be something physically freakish about a player to sustain them for that long.
I don't think so. Someone like zanetti is probably the best example of somebody with freakish fitness levels. I think he still plays 40 games a season at the age of 40 at a big club like inter which is frankly ridiculous. And of course even the likes of scholes and pirlo had to maintain their fitness levels to an acceptable degree but I don't think their fitness levels would stand out among other veterans their age. I mean no one looked at scholes when he as running our midfield and said "man that guy is in such good shape for someone of his age", it was more of "this guy has such ridiculous talent and football intelligence". It's their football brain, talent combined with attitude that kept their level high.
For example in pirlos case he was given all the protection in the world in that juve midfield to sustain his level, which is in itself an acknowledgment that he didn't have the legs and fitness but his talent and ability was still there in abundance.
Love how people think Pirlo is on his last legs and is like Giggs, Scholes and Zanetti. Ok, he is no young pup but he is 34, the way he plays, he has a bit left in him. Ever since he went for the beard people think he is late 30s.
Pirlo is only two years older than Carrick and most would agree that his last season already showed signs of decline. He also plays in a slower league with more protection from his midfield partners.
Fair riposte, there are always two sides to every coin.
Left-side onslaught shows David Moyes is making mark at Manchester United
The way Patrice Evra and Shinji Kagawa combined against Real Sociedad was reminiscent of the manager's tactics at Everton
- Michael Cox
- The Guardian,Tuesday 5 November 2013 23.08 GMT
The most obvious feature of David Moyes's coaching philosophy is his emphasis upon width – asking his central midfielders to spread the play, and encouraging the full-backs forward to create overloads with the wide midfielders. This was an unspectacular performance from Manchester United but suggested Moyes's players are becoming familiar with their duties.
At Everton, Moyes created the best wide partnership in the Premier League with Steven Pienaar and Leighton Baines down the left, and he is building something similar with Shinji Kagawa and Patrice Evra. The Scot took time to embrace the qualities of his Japanese playmaker but this was one of Kagawa's better games this season – drifting inside dangerously for the first two-thirds of the game, then dominating when he was moved centrally midway through the second half.
Patrice Evra constantly sprinted past Carlos Vela to combine with Shinji Kagawa.
But Kagawa is unlikely to be used centrally considering Wayne Rooney's fine form, so Moyes will have been particularly pleased he combined so frequently with Evra. United consistently created overloads down the left – Evra was the game's most energetic player, taking advantage of Carlos Vela's lack of interest in defending and repeatedly getting into crossing positions.
Javier Hernández and Rooney did not offer the most promising targets, however. Hernández can sprint to the near post dangerously and is useful with his head if the delivery is right, but he depends upon pinpoint, driven crosses, whereas Evra tended to loft the ball into the centre.
Still, the Kagawa-Evra partnership was the main positive from United's performance. By the time Kagawa was moved centrally, the game's two most frequent passing combinations were Evra to Kagawa (16 times) and vice-versa (12 times). The best passing move of the game came relatively early on, when Kagawa slipped the ball wide to Evra and motored into the area. Evra knocked a low pass into the box for Rooney, who touched the ball back for Kagawa, who unleashed a powerful shot. It was the only shot on target of the first half.
Evra's advanced positioning and Kagawa's narrowness did cause some defensive problems – Vela had a couple of opportunities to break into space, while right-back Carlos Martínez was Real Sociedad's most impressive performer, allowed to carry the ball forward. But when Evra was in a position to carry out his defensive tasks, he was excellent – making a couple of important clearances and tracking Vela's runs inside.
Vela's former Arsenal team-mates will give United's left flank a much tougher test this weekend, but Moyes's United are starting to take shape
That Cox article is good. In essence I think the missing link with the possible Kagawa/Evra combination is support from the midfield and to an extent the front men.
Kagawa's not an individualist, in the sense that he doesn't beat defenders with dribbling like Giggs used to, or Januzaj does for us now. His skill set is in combining with other players to take defenders out of the game with one-twos and in order to do that he needs 1 or 2 passes to be on as defenders close him down.
Our tendency to shift the ball wide with longish passes leaves him with few options. He can either pass to Evra which largely doesn't take the move forward or he can take a few touches himself and try to find a pass inside which often ends up with him resorting to passing backwards as it takes too long for our midfielders and other attackers to catch up with the play and provide him with options.
Kagawa's not an individualist, in the sense that he doesn't beat defenders with dribbling like Giggs used to, or Januzaj does for us now. His skill set is in combining with other players to take defenders out of the game with one-twos and in order to do that he needs 1 or 2 passes to be on as defenders close him down.
Our tendency to shift the ball wide with longish passes leaves him with few options. He can either pass to Evra which largely doesn't take the move forward or he can take a few touches himself and try to find a pass inside which often ends up with him resorting to passing backwards as it takes too long for our midfielders and other attackers to catch up with the play and provide him with options.
Good observation.
I would say the problem with the way we spread the ball wide results in him receiving the ball too early and in isolation with no support, and support is where Shinji thrives with. Case in point, Valencia would be the antithesis of Shinji Kagawa when used wide. An early Rooney ball to the wing for Val that gives him time and space to drive past his man for the cross across the face of goal for the lead striker, or a pull back for the late-arriving Rooney.
Kagawa on the other hand, would benefit from more patient build up where he doesn't have to beat his man by taking the ball past him, but with clever movement and incisive combination play. This is where I'd like to see Rooney drive the ball forward more incisively before releasing Kagawa in an already advanced position on the left with Evra rushing for the overlap. That, IMHO, will bring out the best of Kagawa when he plays on the left.
But I'll have to say, the Kagawa-Evra partnership does seem to be taking shape slowly but surely to sort of resemble the Baines-Pienaar partnership at Everton.
I would say the problem with the way we spread the ball wide results in him receiving the ball too early and in isolation with no support, and support is where Shinji thrives with. Case in point, Valencia would be the antithesis of Shinji Kagawa when used wide. An early Rooney ball to the wing for Val that gives him time and space to drive past his man for the cross across the face of goal for the lead striker, or a pull back for the late-arriving Rooney.
Kagawa on the other hand, would benefit from more patient build up where he doesn't have to beat his man by taking the ball past him, but with clever movement and incisive combination play. This is where I'd like to see Rooney drive the ball forward more incisively before releasing Kagawa in an already advanced position on the left with Evra rushing for the overlap. That, IMHO, will bring out the best of Kagawa when he plays on the left.
But I'll have to say, the Kagawa-Evra partnership does seem to be taking shape slowly but surely to sort of resemble the Baines-Pienaar partnership at Everton.
Are you sure?. I see him taking on players on a regular basis. Thats the thing thats missing from Cleverleys game and its the thing that made the tempo lift on the CL game 2 days ago. he runs at players all the time.
I don't think you do see him running at opponents a great deal, he hardly ever receives the ball in space, turns, and powers past players. You could probably dredge up the odd example of him proper running at players but it's not necessarily a strength of his game or something he does consistently. When defenders stand off him he doesn't have the burst of pace required to get up some speed and blaze past them, which is why it's a problem when he receives the ball in space on the left with only Evra for support, he's got time and space but his only options are to pass the ball to Evra or wait for players to come and show for a pass, by which time the opposition have had a chance to organise and the move stagnates.
This isn't necessarily a criticism of Kagawa, driving past defenders just isn't his skill set. What he is very good at is receiving the ball when he's being closely marked and using his awareness and technique take the ball past them with his first touch, which is one of the reasons he thrives in close quarters with plenty of teammates around him.
That article doesn't say anything about Moyes' tactical setup at all. Evra has been bombing down the left flank for years, usually overlapping a wide player who prefers to cut inside.....Ronaldo, Rooney, Park, Nani etc. Now Kagawa. It's nothing new.
Also I would certainly hope for a bit more tactical nous than a simple focus on the left side of the pitch. I have seen nothing so far that is different to the way United have set up under Ferguson for the past 2-3 years. Nothing.
Also I would certainly hope for a bit more tactical nous than a simple focus on the left side of the pitch. I have seen nothing so far that is different to the way United have set up under Ferguson for the past 2-3 years. Nothing.
Moyes likes his teams to retain shape i.e. two banks of four, while looking to retain width for overlapping full-backs. The team will look to press down a particular side of the pitch and if that is not working switch the play to the other flank. The problem is United don't switch the play quick enough and the passing and movement is very laboured. This allows teams to organise themselves and cut down the space. That is why we see no penetration through the middle, unless Van Persie is on the ball. The best example this season was at the Etihad when it was exposed to disastrous effect, and the manager had no answer, he had not a clue how to mix things up. The same thing was happening last night, all very laboured and no movement through central areas. Anyone expecting great off-the-ball movement under Moyes will be disappointed, as they will be if they crave a possession based game. He sets his teams up to be very disciplined, rigid, with a focus on overloading wide areas in order to create space for a full-back to cross the ball.
He will look to set United up exactly how he set Everton up. The problem he has is that at United you are obliged to take the game to opponents, Everton rarely did this, their main priority was to shutdown the opposing team and frustrate them. Probably explains his poor record away from home against the top sides, he rarely sent them there to attack from the off.
He will look to set United up exactly how he set Everton up. The problem he has is that at United you are obliged to take the game to opponents, Everton rarely did this, their main priority was to shutdown the opposing team and frustrate them. Probably explains his poor record away from home against the top sides, he rarely sent them there to attack from the off.
Perhaps you would be good enough to enlighten me then?