David Moyes - The Tactician

I think you underrate his ability on the ball.

With his feet or head and chest?

I'll grant him the latter but does anyone on the planet seriously rate Fellaini as one of the world's elite midfielders with the ball at his feet? I think not.
 
With his feet or head and chest?

I'll grant him the latter but does anyone on the planet seriously rate Fellaini as one of the world's elite midfielders with the ball at his feet? I think not.

You're intentionally missing the point here I feel. No-one's saying that he's Xavi, just that he's a tidy passer and better on the ball than he gets credit for. The myth that his only use is as a target man is largely the product of sour grapes from when he dominated us for Everton last season.
 
You're intentionally missing the point here I feel. No-one's saying that he's Xavi, just that he's a tidy passer and better on the ball than he gets credit for. The myth that his only use is as a target man is largely the product of sour grapes from when he dominated us for Everton last season.
spot on
 
Fellaini can be neat in possession, much like Cleverley. His strength and size play the biggest part in his possession retention though, but yeah, he's grand if he keeps it simple enough.
 
Fellaini's ability to pick out the forward pass is quite underrated on here. He's no Xavi, but when he gets the ball, he does actively seek to get it into the players in front of them, which is a good trait.
 
With his feet or head and chest?

I'll grant him the latter but does anyone on the planet seriously rate Fellaini as one of the world's elite midfielders with the ball at his feet? I think not.

Well, that's goalpost moving. He's quite decent with the ball at his feet, always has been.
 
Well, that's goalpost moving. He's quite decent with the ball at his feet, always has been.

Opinions can differ, so there's only so much to be said for how brilliant Fellaini really is or is not with his feet on the ball. Where I'm really going with this point is that while he may be "quite decent" with the ball at his feet, IMHO he's simply not up to the standard of decency a club such as United must demand -- especially for one who cost us 27.5m.

Let's put it another way. United rightfully considers itself a club that annually competes well with clubs such as Barcelona, Real and Bayern for the CL trophy. Would Fellaini even be considered for a moment as a possible starting midfielder by any of those clubs? I seriously doubt it. I also seriously doubt Chelsea and City, who are now part of that elite club of footballs in Europe, would have any interest in Fellaini whatsoever except as squad man.

So while I'm happy to concede that Fellaini is "quite decent" with the ball at his feet, the very fact that you put it that way allows me to rest my case that Fellaini isn't an elite midfielder on the world stage. Instead, he's a highly competent midfielder for a midtable club like Everton or a squad man for a club with higher aspirations. But you'd never, ever see him secure a regular starting role for Barcelona, Real, Bayern, Chelsea or City. Maybe Liverpool or Arsenal, but I'm not even sure about that.
 
Opinions can differ, so there's only so much to be said for how brilliant Fellaini really is or is not with his feet on the ball. Where I'm really going with this point is that while he may be "quite decent" with the ball at his feet, IMHO he's simply not up to the standard of decency a club such as United must demand -- especially for one who cost us 27.5m.

Let's put it another way. United rightfully considers itself a club that annually competes well with clubs such as Barcelona, Real and Bayern for the CL trophy. Would Fellaini even be considered for a moment as a possible starting midfielder by any of those clubs? I seriously doubt it. I also seriously doubt Chelsea and City, who are now part of that elite club of footballs in Europe, would have any interest in Fellaini whatsoever except as squad man.

So while I'm happy to concede that Fellaini is "quite decent" with the ball at his feet, the very fact that you put it that way allows me to rest my case that Fellaini isn't an elite midfielder on the world stage. Instead, he's a highly competent midfielder for a midtable club like Everton or a squad man for a club with higher aspirations. But you'd never, ever see him secure a regular starting role for Barcelona, Real, Bayern, Chelsea or City. Maybe Liverpool or Arsenal, but I'm not even sure about that.

Sure. Neither are many of our players.
 
Opinions can differ, so there's only so much to be said for how brilliant Fellaini really is or is not with his feet on the ball. Where I'm really going with this point is that while he may be "quite decent" with the ball at his feet, IMHO he's simply not up to the standard of decency a club such as United must demand -- especially for one who cost us 27.5m.

Let's put it another way. United rightfully considers itself a club that annually competes well with clubs such as Barcelona, Real and Bayern for the CL trophy. Would Fellaini even be considered for a moment as a possible starting midfielder by any of those clubs? I seriously doubt it. I also seriously doubt Chelsea and City, who are now part of that elite club of footballs in Europe, would have any interest in Fellaini whatsoever except as squad man.

So while I'm happy to concede that Fellaini is "quite decent" with the ball at his feet, the very fact that you put it that way allows me to rest my case that Fellaini isn't an elite midfielder on the world stage. Instead, he's a highly competent midfielder for a midtable club like Everton or a squad man for a club with higher aspirations. But you'd never, ever see him secure a regular starting role for Barcelona, Real, Bayern, Chelsea or City. Maybe Liverpool or Arsenal, but I'm not even sure about that.

Firstly, once again I'll reiterate that no-one has ever claimed that he is an 'elite midfielder on the world stage'. Secondly, quoting the fee isn't a stick to beat him with. It's a stick to beat Woodward/Moyes with, sure.

Mostly though, I'm perplexed with this idea you have that in order to be a midfielder for a top European club you have to be fantastic on the ball. I can only presume you've only been watching the Champion's League since 2009.

If you delve back into the long-forgotten past of 10 years ago, players like Claude Makelele, Gilberto Silva, Gennaro Gattuso were playing in Champion's League finals, winning League titles and contesting World Cup finals. None of them was strikingly more composed on the ball than Fellaini is. But they had other talents and those talents are as much a part of football as 40 yard passes or mazy runs. Real Madrid proved that you don't win titles with a team of 'world class players' when they went to shit after they sold Makelele.
 
A look at Manchester United's system under David Moyes:The Importance of Full Backs




I am a lifelong Manchester United supporter, an avid football player and an armchair tactician. This is my first article discussing tactics and I look forward to some quality discussion in the comments section. I have been thinking about David Moyes' system at Everton and so far at United, and I want to share my thoughts on a few things I have noticed. I will begin by first taking a look at the system itself, or to be precise, one of its most pervasive attacking tactics. This will then shed some light on the various qualities required by individuals and the team. Finally, I will share my personal opinions on a few other matters to round out this article. Throughout, I will remark about various related, and even unrelated, things, and I hope that you will find it somewhat tolerable, if not interesting. I have tried to make this post approachable for the tactical beginners and so I apologize in advance for the verbose nature of this post. Let us begin.

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Take the opponent left back, for example, and imagine he marks Rafael. The next defender can mark van Persie, in which case space is created for Mata, or he can shift to mark Mata, in which case space is created for van Persie. As you can guess, the players occupying the channels are more dangerous than the ones on the outside and because of this, the opponent defense just shifts as a line. You can visualize this by placing your four fingers down again and sliding them left or right. This means that if a fullback has possession, it is usually the other fullback who will have space because the opposing defensive line simply ‘slides’ towards him. But in any case, at least one of the players in the attacking line now has space. Movement along the line by players switching positions creates further confusion, and thus space.
Barcelona employs a very similar style, but much higher up on the pitch. Though they play a different system, the 4-3-3, the idea is the same. As their fullbacks advance, the front three squeezes in, occupying every channel. Players in the first line constantly switch positions, darting inward, outward, creating space, and the second line consists of excellent midfielders who pass the ball very well and find the first line players in the space they’ve created. Barcelona uses an elaborate build-up to get their players in this shape and is very patient for the right gaps to appear to launch an attack.
Now, back to United. I was not suggesting that we would always take up this particular shape in every attack while using this tactic. This is what it would look like at high risk.
[There are generally two types of risk – individual and team. The kind of risk I am talking about here is team risk, which corresponds to the number of players you send to attack, with the maximum possible risk being the case where the goalkeeper also joins the attack. Individual risk is associated with a player attempting a move, say a pass or a dribble, which has low chances of success. Individual risk is not as important in a high-level strategic point of view, just as it is not important to plan out the details before you have a general sense of what you’re doing.]
Normally, you can expect a lopsided attack, with only one of the fullbacks attacking and the other withdrawn. In this case, the first line would consist of only four players, with a match-for-match defending from the opposition.
Now let us look at the consequences of attaining this high-risk shape, with both fullbacks attacking. Say Rafael has possession, but it is important to note that the same arguments can be applied for Evra because of the symmetry of the shape. It is even more important to note that any player could be ‘Rafael’ or ‘Evra’ here. Now there are two tactical options for Rafael: 1) Cross or 2) Pass back.
1) Cross. If Rafael is to cross the ball, he has four 'lengths of cross' to choose from: each 'length' corresponding to the other four players on the first line of attack. Here are his options:
  • Mata: Rafael can play a low driven cross for Mata, who can shoot, pass to the second line or cross further along the first line.
  • van Persie: Rafael can cross [aerial or driven] to van Persie, who can head, shoot or tap in.
  • Januzaj: Rafael can cross [usually aerial at this length because a driven cross is less likely as it has to beat a larger number of bodies] to Januzaj who can shoot or lay it off for the advancing Rooney, or someone on the second line, to attack.
  • Evra: Rafael can cross [aerial again] to Evra, who can head, attack, or restart this tactic again.

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(http://this11.com/topics/add/abGsnxIalJ)
2) Pass back. If Rafael is to pass the ball, he can pass it to the second line. This means that he can give it to Carrick, Rooney or Mata [who will have left the first line of attack to join the second line right behind Rafael, if there were no good chances for penetration]. A pass to the second line is possible because the defenders will be packed further in the box because they have to mark the first line of attack, leaving more space at the top of the box for the second line to operate in. At the second line of attack, all players have two options. They can cross in a similar vein, or they can slip through-balls to the first line to attack, whichever has higher chances of success.
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(http://this11.com/topics/add/abGsnNLad0)

Qualities
Now that we have seen what the Moysey system looks like, or at least one of his attacking tactics, what are the most important skills the players need? Amongst the myriad of other attributes players must have, these are the ones that complement the system the most.
Strikers: headers + trapping the ball [to lay it off to the advancing second line] + finishing
#10: through balls + long range finishing + lobbed balls over the line of defense
Wingers: pace + headers + crossing + passing + dribbling
Midfielders: discipline + key passes + crossing + passing + tackling + stamina
Fullbacks: stamina + discipline + passing + pace + crossing
Defenders: discipline + organization [to send fullbacks forward or hold them back] + pace + tackling + passing
When I list these attributes, by no means am I suggesting that we need players that have all the attributes and more. Remember that players are a mixed bag, and that someone may excel at passing and heading while being slightly limited in terms of pace and dribbling abilities. This is natural. However, it is also important to know exactly what one is talking about when one talks about attributes. Allow me to quote the Dutch master himself, Johan Cruyff: "What is speed? The sports press often confuses speed with insight. See, if I start running slightly earlier than someone else, I seem faster."
Along with these individual qualities, the team as a whole must be good at circulating the ball. The most important element of this is the speed of circulation. This is the top criterion in Louis van Gaal's systems, and if he does come to Tottenham, expect stunning ball circulation from the Spurs [or you can see the Netherlands display this in the upcoming World Cup]. Let me illustrate why circulation is important. Van Gaal believes in creating 2v1s against him because this means that if two opposition players are on one of his players, then somewhere else on the field there has to be a 0v1 in his team's favor. Of the 10 outfield players on both sides, if two are marking one, this leaves the rest of the field as an 8v9 [10v10 -2v-1 = 8v9], which necessarily frees up a person [i.e. a 0v1]. However, these 0v1s don’t always happen to the striker or the #10. Imagine an unmarked Valencia right behind Rafael, a very common situation. The objective then becomes twofold: to create this 0v1 in dangerous locations and to find this free person as soon as possible through excellent circulation before the gaps close. This why I love Dutch tactics: they view the game as a whole, as a ‘totaal’, with impacts of all ‘subsystems’ felt on the whole system. People think Total Football refers to players interchanging positions and being able to play all roles, but that is merely a consequence of their philosophy, not the philosophy itself. The main idea is that nothing is isolated. Everything is connected.
Anyways, I was saying that circulation is important to get into the above-described attacking shape in the first place, à la Barcelona, and especially important is the speed of circulation to make sure that the channels can be exploited before the opponent reorganizes or closes the gaps. The fastest way to move the ball is, of course, the long ball or the cross. However, these longer passes are also riskier than short passes. For short passes, one-touch passing is the fastest way to circulate the ball.
 
A Few Other Matters (on my mind grapes)
A lot of fans are panicking that Moyes isn’t the right man for the job. Where are the results? Where is the attacking flair? People draw comparisons with other managers who are all in their first year with their new teams - Guardiola, Martino, Ancelotti, Pellegrini, Martinez – and the success that they’ve had. Why doesn’t Moyes adapt to the squad rather than making the squad adapt to him?
While there is something to be said about a manager who adapts to his new squad, it is not what United were looking for when they brought in Moyes. Moyes has a long-term plan, exactly like how he built up Everton. Moyes will not adapt to his squad because he needs to get started on his long-term plan right away, so it can arrive sooner. If he’s adapting to his players all the time, what happens when the group of players themselves change, like the overhaul that may be coming up? And, you also have to consider how switching approaches can send mixed signals and undermine authority.
Frequently mentioned is Brendon Rodgers taking over Liverpool and trying to implement a certain passing style, something that was visible right away. What is visible for us? Moyes' plan is coming in waves, in modules. He may have planted a few components - like the increase in one-touch passing that I've noticed, which goes with my point of ball circulation - but is unable to put in other components because he lacks the required elements, like a younger LB and a fresh midfield. To be honest, all good coaches are quite stubborn on their preferred systems [Cruyff, van Gaal, Ancelotti]. They know them inside out and know how to train the players accordingly. I just hope that Moyes at the very least learns to take more risk, the very thing I love about watching United. As a match goes on, we aren't afraid of taking the risk to win a game. This is why we always had incredible late game attacks in swashbuckling style. I hope this continues in the future.
Manchester United have just emerged from the biggest organizational inertias known in football, the Fergie reign, and no one in the club has any idea what a non-Fergusonian United looks like. This factor is normally discounted heavily when making comparisons with other clubs [Barcelona, Real Madrid, Manchester City] that have a culture of cycling managers, and thus have more fluid organizations. Normally, I am against massive squad overhauls and am very cautious of bringing too many new players too soon. However, this summer may be one of the few windows where bringing in many new players and offloading some dead weight would make sense. I have much faith in Moyes as the man for the job. However, in my opinion, he would need at least three to four years to fully retool the team. This is virtually impossible in modern times because of the money involved in modern football and fans' impatience, especially vocalized through social media. And the fans are right to agitate. We are the world's best club, and we should be at least dominating most matches if not winning them. If we are doing neither, that is a major cause for concern. Nevertheless, Moyes is a very intelligent and methodical man who can function not only as the head coach, but also as a manager who knows how to run a football club. But a club of United's size? That will surely take time. Whether he gets this time remains to be seen.

By Diwas Neupane
 
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Can't say I've read the majority but shouldn't this have gone in the Moyes Tactician thread?
 
Are you the one who wrote this for thefalse9 or are you just posting it?
 
@yanuzay

1) Valencia has played far more than Mata down the right therefore are you talking about a game such as crystal palace where both Januzaj and Mata played on the flanks and we noticed a slight change in system or are you talking about our performance this season?

I think this season it has been quite noticeable Moyes has asked one of his wide players to stay out wide.

2) You said:

If he’s adapting to his players all the time, what happens when the group of players themselves change, like the overhaul that may be coming up?

If not adapting builds a great team that is fine too however to change with change is the changeless state. Football is changing and evolving constantly as the market changes with so called sugar daddy owners, as sports science evolves and also the quantity of the types players available (e.g. More David Silva's than Ryan Giggs at the top level now).

I still think a midfield of Giggs, Scholes, Keane and Beckham would perform at the highest level but for as long as such well rounded players are not prevalent but specialists such as DLPs, BWMs and CAMs are then it's not surprising a 4231 is such a common formation.

For as long as football is evolving then I think a manager that is adaptable will be desirable. He will continually adapt to the change around him and evolve as the game evolves and so continue to perform at the top.

What happens when players with the attributes Moyes desires are not so easy to come by but other types of players are? Unless Moyes is one of the very best managers the game has seen, not being an adaptable manager could prevent him from achieving the very top.

A very good and insightful post however, my first point is merely a question to how this relates to what Valencia has been doing all season and also the second point is merely my belief in life on the importance of being adaptable. We cannot predict the future and we cannot predict the obstacles Moyes system will face, furthermore what if a world class player comes through the youth system but is simply not suited to his way of doing things. To adapt or not to adapt to that player?

I like how Mourinho appears to be moving towards a 4-3-3 system but still adapts to get the most out of his players this season. The signing of Matic and a few others will still allow him to achieve his vision but he has performed to the level required to mount a title challenge, I think that should be what is expected of Moyes simply because it is very possible to achieve.

My post below is connected to this too, it's regarding Ancelotti's evolution from forcing a team to adhere to his vision, his rigid and limited formation to now, his formationless formation so to speak. A playing style that changes in response to the players.
 
The footballing philosophy of Real Madrid manager Carlo Ancelotti drastically changed after working with Zinedine Zidane, now Ancelotti's assistant manager, during their time at Juventus.

Nine months on from winning the 1998 FIFA World Cup, Zidane, a Ballon d'Or recipient, had an uncertain future under Ancelotti, from Corriere dello Sport via Jon Brodkin and Michael Walker at The Guardian:

The Italian sports daily Corriere dello Sport yesterday cited club sources in a story that the 26-year-old will leave Juventus for Old Trafford or a Spanish club at the end of the season.

Zidane, it said, is not considered essential to the tactics of Carlo Ancelotti, who replaced Marcello Lippi as coach earlier this year.

The 1999 version of Ancelotti was stubborn to a fault, dogged in defence and had a philosophy that leaned more towards catenaccio than total football.

During Ancelotti's time at
Parma, he was notorious for his refusal to adjust his tactics according to the creative flair of the players he had at his disposal.

Forget about Adaílton, Jesper Blomqvist and Tomas Brolin; Gianfranco Zola was the biggest casualty.

"I made a mistake with Zola because I wanted to play 4-4-2 but he wanted to stay in the centre like a striker," reflected Ancelotti via
The Guardian. "He would probably not have gone to Chelsea if I had changed the system."

When Roberto Baggio, then with AC Milan, approached Parma regarding a potential move, Ancelotti sunk the deal because he didn't want to build the team around il Divin Codino.

Baggio would have been divine for Parma, but he signed with Bolognaand scored 22 times in 30 Serie A games, six more goals that season than Enrico Chiesa and Hernán Crespo combined.

"I played with a 4-4-2 formation and I didn't want to change, so I didn't take Baggio," Ancelotti said to BeIN Sport via Ian Holyman at ESPN FC. "If I could do it over, I would sign Baggio and only then talk about where he would play on the pitch.

With Fabio Cannavaro, Gianluigi Buffon, Lilian Thuram, Néstor Sensini and Roberto Mussi, Ancelotti had no intentions of Parma emulating Zdeněk Zeman's Foggia side of the early '90s, a team that played football with bravado and no fear.

Parma finished two points behind Juve for the 1996-97 Scudetto, however 13 teams scored more goals than Ancelotti's side.

When he replaced Marcello Lippi at the Bianconeri, an already disgruntled Thierry Henry, wasted in Lippi's 3-5-2, was Ancelotti's next high-profile victim.

"I didn't think I could play Henry in the middle and he never told me he could," Ancelotti told Philippe Auclair via
Thierry Henry Lonely at the Top: A Biography. "Henry didn't leave because he had a problem with me, or me with him, his problem was with the club."

Arsenal manager Arsène Wenger, who worked with Henry at Monaco, bought the Frenchman and changed him into a centre-forward—Henry went on to score 228 times for the Gunners.

The key difference between the situations of Henry and Zola compared to Zidane was that Ancelotti didn't want Zizou to leave.

"When I arrived at Juventus I changed my view and that was because of Zidane," Ancelotti said via Rob Shepherd at
The National. "How could I play such a great talent wide on the left or the right in a 4-4-2?"

Instead of being known as the manager who was too headstrong to experiment with Baggio, Henry and Zola, Ancelotti was now more open to change because he was forced to abandon his inflexible, rigid and limited formation for Zidane.

At AC Milan, Andrea Pirlo, then a No. 10, was the first to profit from Ancelotti's new-found tactical adaptability, from Preferisco La Coppa via The Daily Mail:

Pirlo approached me one day and suggested that he could play in a deep-position, just in front of the back four. I was extremely skeptical. He was an attacking midfielder, his tendency was to run with the ball. And yet, it worked. He became one of the best in the world in that role.

Kaká, an €8.5 million signing from São Paulo, wasn't going to become Henry 2.0 for Ancelotti.

Early on in Kaká's career, Ancelotti surrounded the Brazilian with three playmakers in Pirlo, Clarence Seedorf and Rui Costa, coupled with a world-class No. 9 in Andriy Shevchenko.

There was no way a player of Kaká's talent was going to fail with that much assistance.

During Kaká's pomp, he was often a deep-lying forward playing off Filippo Inzaghi, and the freedom to roam enabled the Brazilian to win the 2007 FIFA World Player of the Year.

Kaká's dominance vs.Manchester United was voted as the fourth greatest UEFA Champions League moment.

He became Ancelotti's penance for not projecting Henry's upside.

Having won two Champions League titles for AC Milan, Chelsea owner Roman Abramovich arranged a secret meeting with Ancelotti.

"My Chelsea team don't have a personality," Abramovich told Ancelotti from Preferisco La Coppa via The Independent. "My ambition is to win every competition but at the moment I don't even recognise my team."

Under Ancelotti, the Blues became the first Premier League team to score 100 goals or more in a season.

His inability to win the Champions League led to him saying arrivederci to Stamford Bridge and bonjour to Paris Saint-Germain.

Whether it was a 4-1-2-1-2, 4-3-3, a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-2-2-2, Ancelotti's propensity to experiment is linked back to him having to adapt to Zidane at Juventus.

Ancelotti had to figure out a way to include Ezequiel Lavezzi, Javier Pastore, Jérémy Menez, Lucas Moura and Zlatan Ibrahimović in the PSG starting XI.

Ancelotti is coming to Real Madrid with league titles in Italy, England and France.