[CloneMC16]

What a lot of nonsense being spouted here. Do some people think that DeGea is playing the way he plays now just because he feels like he wants to play like that? Just because he feels like now I am not going to stand back but I am going to push myself outside of the box and going to play sweeper. That's not how it works. It works according to the tactics and the way the manager wants to play.

This doesn't make sense, though. Why would any manager not want their keeper to sweep when a ball is played over the defence? There have been so many instances over the years that De Gea has not swept, and it has cost us goals. It puts the rest of the team under a tonne of pressure to try and get back in. Nothing good comes from allowing a transition to happen when you could have potentially stopped it.

We're all aware that ETH is asking him to do this. It's not part of his natural game or he would have been doing it before. I refuse to believe he was actively told to not do it by our past managers.

 

[TheReligion]

This doesn't make sense, though. Why would any manager not want their keeper to sweep when a ball is played over the defence? There have been so many instances over the years that De Gea has not swept, and it has cost us goals. It puts the rest of the team under a tonne of pressure to try and get back in. Nothing good comes from allowing a transition to happen when you could have potentially stopped it.

What does make sense to you then?

 

[CloneMC16]

What does make sense to you then?

I added a bit more to my post. I think our past managers just accepted it as a weaker part of his game. He wasn't being encouraged to do it. I may have misunderstood the post. I assumed he was saying that De Gea had actively been told not to sweep. That sounds very unlikely to me.

De Gea is obviously now being told to sweep, and he's having to change his game to accommodate the request. It would have really benefited us if it were a natural part of his game throughout all of his time here.

 

[TheReligion]

I added a bit more to my post. I think our past managers just accepted it as a weaker part of his game. He wasn't being encouraged to do it. I may have misunderstood the post. I assumed he was saying that De Gea had actively been told not to sweep. That sounds very unlikely to me.

De Gea is obviously now being told to sweep, and he's having to change his game to accommodate the request. It would have really benefited us if it were a natural part of his game throughout all of his time here.

I think it’s obvious that we now have a manager who prioritises having a keeper who can do these things as part of his system. We also have coaches who are well versed in it and have purchased the likes of Martinez who knows it inside out.

I don’t think DDG has been told explicitly not to do it in the past but now it’s more of a focus and he’s getting help to do it.

 

[Lyng]

I added a bit more to my post. I think our past managers just accepted it as a weaker part of his game. He wasn't being encouraged to do it. I may have misunderstood the post. I assumed he was saying that De Gea had actively been told not to sweep. That sounds very unlikely to me.

De Gea is obviously now being told to sweep, and he's having to change his game to accommodate the request. It would have really benefited us if it were a natural part of his game throughout all of his time here.

I am not so sure. He regressed immensely after we got Mourinho. I dont think its senseless to believe that Mourinho would want him to stay back and not sweep, especially given how far back the whole team was under him.

 

[pierrethesnack]

I refuse to believe he was actively told to not do it by our past managers.

I find it strange as well, but DDG doesn't seem like an intransigent or stubborn personality, so I also find it hard to believe that they tried very hard.

I can also easily imagine Mourinho and Ole loving his match winning abilities on the line, and with the way we played under both of them it just wasn't that natural or important to make him sweep more.

Edit: Missed your clarification, sorry.

 

[largelyworried]

I find it strange as well, but DDG doesn't seem like an intransigent or stubborn personality, so I also find it hard to believe that they tried very hard.

I can also easily imagine Mourinho and Ole loving his match winning abilities on the line, and with the way we played under both of them it just wasn't that natural or important to make him sweep more.

Edit: Missed your clarification, sorry.

I think part of the question is that the way a goalkeeper sets himself in the first place plays a large role in how well he handles shots. When you tell a goalkeeper to come out and sweep, the thing that changes most is his starting position, since you have to live close to the edge of your box. A bad starting position obviously makes it harder to make a save. The actual interceptions DDG makes are fine, I suspect the real issue is when opposition attacks develop where he has no chance at an interception. In those cases he has to scamper 15 - 20 yards to his goalline, which makes it more likely he's in a bad position to make a save. The further he has to run back, the longer it takes to get to the right spot and the more likely he is to concede.

My guess is that under our previous coaches, he simply agreed with the manager and the goalkeeping coach to do what he felt gave him the best chance at making saves. I doubt they actively told him not to sweep as such, but rather told him to prioritise shot stopping. For DDG, that means being close to the line. He would sweep where he could, but if his starting position is 6 yards from goal instead of 18, its much harder to intercept through balls.

I suspect that ETH has simply told DDG to play further away from the goal line even if it means risking being in a worse position for a shot. ETH is happy to risk that because he needs his keeper involved in ball progression. I guess he'll have made the calculation that, say, 5 more goals conceded a year from bad positioning is worth it if it means his team plays better every week.

 

[pierrethesnack]

I think part of the question is that the way a goalkeeper sets himself in the first place plays a large role in how well he handles shots. When you tell a goalkeeper to come out and sweep, the thing that changes most is his starting position, since you have to live close to the edge of your box. A bad starting position obviously makes it harder to make a save. The actual interceptions DDG makes are fine, I suspect the real issue is when opposition attacks develop where he has no chance at an interception. In those cases he has to scamper 15 - 20 yards to his goalline, which makes it more likely he's in a bad position to make a save. The further he has to run back, the longer it takes to get to the right spot and the more likely he is to concede.

My guess is that under our previous coaches, he simply agreed with the manager and the goalkeeping coach to do what he felt gave him the best chance at making saves. I doubt they actively told him not to sweep as such, but rather told him to prioritise shot stopping. For DDG, that means being close to the line. He would sweep where he could, but if his starting position is 6 yards from goal instead of 18, its much harder to intercept through balls.

I suspect that ETH has simply told DDG to play further away from the goal line even if it means risking being in a worse position for a shot. ETH is happy to risk that because he needs his keeper involved in ball progression. I guess he'll have made the calculation that, say, 5 more goals conceded a year from bad positioning is worth it if it means his team plays better every week.

Yeah, good post.

 

[JB7]

I think part of the question is that the way a goalkeeper sets himself in the first place plays a large role in how well he handles shots. When you tell a goalkeeper to come out and sweep, the thing that changes most is his starting position, since you have to live close to the edge of your box. A bad starting position obviously makes it harder to make a save. The actual interceptions DDG makes are fine, I suspect the real issue is when opposition attacks develop where he has no chance at an interception. In those cases he has to scamper 15 - 20 yards to his goalline, which makes it more likely he's in a bad position to make a save. The further he has to run back, the longer it takes to get to the right spot and the more likely he is to concede.

My guess is that under our previous coaches, he simply agreed with the manager and the goalkeeping coach to do what he felt gave him the best chance at making saves. I doubt they actively told him not to sweep as such, but rather told him to prioritise shot stopping. For DDG, that means being close to the line. He would sweep where he could, but if his starting position is 6 yards from goal instead of 18, its much harder to intercept through balls.

I suspect that ETH has simply told DDG to play further away from the goal line even if it means risking being in a worse position for a shot. ETH is happy to risk that because he needs his keeper involved in ball progression. I guess he'll have made the calculation that, say, 5 more goals conceded a year from bad positioning is worth it if it means his team plays better every week.

In response to the bolded bit, I've posted in depth about this previously, but there are interviews with Frank Hoek out there where he explains that he faced a lot of opposition from De Gea about integrated training, as he had been used to and preferred a predominantly individual training plan. Hoek had been training him roughly 80% of the time with the team which he did not like and it was interesting this was pretty much immediately reversed after Hoek left the club, despite the improvements being evidence in De Gea's game at the time under Hoek. As time went on and he spent so much time isolated from the group, his game became more and more stale and he became more and more obviously attached to his line.

I would imagine that De Gea is well aware that the only way he survives at the club if by adapting his game and he is clearly buying into Ten Hags methods which is bringing improvements. His actual starting position isn't a lot higher than last year, but the main difference over the past few weeks is that he is looking to move towards the ball when possible rather than away from it. In years gone by his instinct has been to back away, regardless of whether it's our own defenders or the opposing strikers in possession. I'm pleased with the improvements in his game, I don't believe he is the correct option long term still but I'm more comfortable with him at the moment than I have been for a long time.

I also like how we are dealing with crosses. In the past defenders have looked to De Gea and De Gea has looked to defenders. This season there seems to be a clarity within the defensive unit that the defenders will deal with crosses and they are well positioned to do so and De Gea will only deal with balls that are more or less straight to him. It's a simple change but it removes the doubt from the minds of the players as the defenders know to attack the ball, so there isn't that split second delay. Again, this isn't something that I think we will see long term under Ten Hag but it is a sensible and pragmatic way of protecting De Gea's main weakness.

 

[Foxbatt]

As others have already explained why they think it's different now.
Now about DeGea not liking to train with his defense line or not, it's not up to him to decide. It's for the manager to decide. This is the PL and not a Sunday league.
We also know that both Jose and Ole played low block, counter attacking football. When our defense is deep, the keeper is going to be deep.
ETH has decided it's worth the risk for DeGea to be much forward even if he gets lobbed occasionally.

 

[Lentwood]

I was only able to listen to the game live on the radio at the weekend because I was driving back from London.

From the way in which the saves were described and from how Moyes' reaction was described, I expected to see at least two mind-blowingly good, world-class saves.

Instead, when I watched the game back, I saw two saves you would expect a good GK to make. The save from Zouma was good, the save from Rice was acrobatic but fairly routine.

Now you get some folk claiming that somehow, saves like these make-up for his deficiencies but I just don't buy it. I have seen what "world-class saves" look like, primarily from watching peak DDG! From 2012 to about 2018/2019, he pulled off saves that were genuinely improbable, saves that would not be made by other goalkeepers.

Nowadays, with all the hyperbole and the standard "DDG saves United" narrative pundits/the media love to use, some people swoon every time he catches a routine cross or blocks a hopeful long-range effort.

Ultimately I am pleased DDG made those saves on Sunday of course...but I would expect David Raya, Robert Sanchez or Jose Sa to make those saves more often than not and with DDGs contract running-down, I don't think we should be blinded into thinking he isn't still a big problem.

 

[Foxbatt]

I was only able to listen to the game live on the radio at the weekend because I was driving back from London.

From the way in which the saves were described and from how Moyes' reaction was described, I expected to see at least two mind-blowingly good, world-class saves.

Instead, when I watched the game back, I saw two saves you would expect a good GK to make. The save from Zouma was good, the save from Rice was acrobatic but fairly routine.

Now you get some folk claiming that somehow, saves like these make-up for his deficiencies but I just don't buy it. I have seen what "world-class saves" look like, primarily from watching peak DDG! From 2012 to about 2018/2019, he pulled off saves that were genuinely improbable, saves that would not be made by other goalkeepers.

Nowadays, with all the hyperbole and the standard "DDG saves United" narrative pundits/the media love to use, some people swoon every time he catches a routine cross or blocks a hopeful long-range effort.

Ultimately I am pleased DDG made those saves on Sunday of course...but I would expect David Raya, Robert Sanchez or Jose Sa to make those saves more often than not and with DDGs contract running-down, I don't think we should be blinded into thinking he isn't still a big problem.

What are you on about? He made three good saves. One in the first half and two in the second half. These are not expected saves. It could have gone either way and if they had scored no blame to the keeper. The Zouma one probably was the easiest because it came outside the box. Just like the goal Casemiro scored against Chelsea. No blame was attached to Kepa.
Is he a priority to be changed? Of course not. We have more important things to do than change the keeper. A CF is of utmost priority. A CB to replace Varane next.

 

[JB7]

What are you on about? He made three good saves. One in the first half and two in the second half. These are not expected saves. It could have gone either way and if they had scored no blame to the keeper.

Do you think every other goalkeeper is expected to be completely useless or something? The save from Zouma was very good, some in the league are stopping it and some aren't. The one from Rice is a save he has to make, which he does, realistically if that goes in any goalkeeper in the professional game is rightly being criticised.

And yes, he's still a massive priority to be change. People can keep kidding themselves all they like but even with the improvements in his game he's still nowhere near the level a top team needs.

 

[Lentwood]

What are you on about? He made three good saves. One in the first half and two in the second half. These are not expected saves. It could have gone either way and if they had scored no blame to the keeper. The Zouma one probably was the easiest because it came outside the box. Just like the goal Casemiro scored against Chelsea. No blame was attached to Kepa.
Is he a priority to be changed? Of course not. We have more important things to do than change the keeper. A CF is of utmost priority. A CB to replace Varane next.

If you think the Zouma header was the easiest save then that tells me everything I need to know and I need not bother continuing to argue with you

 

[Adnan]

I was only able to listen to the game live on the radio at the weekend because I was driving back from London.

From the way in which the saves were described and from how Moyes' reaction was described, I expected to see at least two mind-blowingly good, world-class saves.

Instead, when I watched the game back, I saw two saves you would expect a good GK to make. The save from Zouma was good, the save from Rice was acrobatic but fairly routine.

Now you get some folk claiming that somehow, saves like these make-up for his deficiencies but I just don't buy it. I have seen what "world-class saves" look like, primarily from watching peak DDG! From 2012 to about 2018/2019, he pulled off saves that were genuinely improbable, saves that would not be made by other goalkeepers.

Nowadays, with all the hyperbole and the standard "DDG saves United" narrative pundits/the media love to use, some people swoon every time he catches a routine cross or blocks a hopeful long-range effort.

Ultimately I am pleased DDG made those saves on Sunday of course...but I would expect David Raya, Robert Sanchez or Jose Sa to make those saves more often than not and with DDGs contract running-down, I don't think we should be blinded into thinking he isn't still a big problem.

Couldn't agree more.

He made good saves in the game but I would expect most top keepers to make those saves. I also think a keeper like Diogo Costa not only makes those saves against West Ham, but he also contributes positively against West Ham's direct approach by being more commanding/proactive in his area.

I also feel the way the game developed with United retreating into a low block, it would've opened up the game for a ball playing keeper to find Rashford.

 

[JB7]

I also feel the way the game developed with United retreating into a low block, it would've opened up the game for a ball playing keeper to find Rashford.

This exact thing was highlighted by Ten Hag at the end of the game. He was walking off talking to De Gea but pointing out to the wings in a swooping motion pretty clearly suggesting that there had been opportunities to put balls in behind if he had been quicker with his distribution.

 

[sullydnl]

With pretty much any save, no matter how difficult, you can argue any given PL standard goalkeeper could save it. The point is that some goalkeepers have the capacity to save them more consistently than others do. You're not going to get saves that literally only the best shot-stopper(s) could save.

I don't see much point in talking semantics about whether De Gea's saves in any given game were great or just good. He's been here long enough that it should be taken as read that (allowing for the vagaries of form) he's an extremely gifted shot-stopper, almost certainly more so than anyone we will bring in to replace him will be.

The point is always what he offers as an overall package versus what other keepers might. The fact that he's capable of exceptional shot-stopping performances is a given within that debate.

 

[Foxbatt]

If you think the Zouma header was the easiest save then that tells me everything I need to know and I need not bother continuing to argue with you

Exactly you have no clue about keeping.

 

[Adnan]

This exact thing was highlighted by Ten Hag at the end of the game. He was walking off talking to De Gea but pointing out to the wings in a swooping motion pretty clearly suggesting that there had been opportunities to put balls in behind if he had been quicker with his distribution.

It was frustrating to see and it's something the likes of Liverpool and City have a clear advantage over us with their keepers who are comfortably better than DdG. Allison and Ederson are weapons for their teams in the build up/transition, where they're both the 11th outfield player. And the arrival of Klopp and Guardiola to the EPL not only pushed the boundaries when it came to applying a off the ball pressing game (along with Rodgers and Pochettino), but they also set the standard of what is required from a goalkeeper in a team that aspires to play proactive, attacking football against teams who are adept at pressing high and closing off the space. We haven't even attempted to close the gap in that regard and hopefully with ten Hag we will now make progress towards evolving as a team.

And the reason DdG makes a high volume of saves isn't only because he's a good shot-stopper, but also because his ability to prevent shots is not of the requisite level. When your keeper is weak at commanding his area, then he will concede a higher number of shots. And a keeper who is strong at controlling his space and is proactive in nature will by default concede less shots because like they say, prevention is better than the cure.

I personally think it's a good time to allow DdG to leave with his contract running down. And I think with the news coming out that the club is looking for a new first team keeper with Tony Coton leading the search, I think it could be the right time to part ways, and I do believe the search for a new keeper is being conducted with the blessing of Erik ten Hag.

There shouldn't be any sentiments in football and we should be making every effort to complete our transition into the modern game and a proactive keeper with good distribution skills should be brought to the club.

 

[Lentwood]

It was frustrating to see and it's something the likes of Liverpool and City have a clear advantage over us with their keepers who are comfortably better than DdG.

Allisson is a better 'shot-stopper' than DDG too. His style of goalkeeping might not be as flashy as DDG but the number of blocks he makes in one vs one situations by charging out and closing the angle quickly is insane.

Again, people miss this because they see a 'good save' as a save in which a goalkeeper makes a full-length dive and/or flying save. I checked out the xG of the saves DDG made at the weekend and the Zouma header was 0.02 and the Rice shot was 0.02*. In simple terms, those were both difficult chances and unlikely to result in a goal.

Allisson regularly makes less flashy saves but from shots with much higher xG. One-vs-one's, shots from close range, shots from central areas...all saved because he charges at the ball like a man possessed and throws himself at the attacker. DDG would stay on his line, be beaten by the shot and the pundits would say 'nothing the GK would do'. Well there is something he can do...leave his line and affect the situation!

* I understand an 'expected goal' and an 'expected save' are not the same thing....i.e. a long-range shot might have a 0.02xG but it might be powerful and right in the top corner and become a 0.25xS, for example. However....my point is...I'd rather my goalkeeper be good at saving high-xG efforts than making flashy stops from the odd improbable effort

Again....I caveat all of this by saying DDG was, in my opinion, one of the best GKs in the World for a period of time...I feel that hasn't now been the case since Jose's final season

 

[Longshanks]

Allisson is a better 'shot-stopper' than DDG too. His style of goalkeeping might not be as flashy as DDG but the number of blocks he makes in one vs one situations by charging out and closing the angle quickly is insane.

Again, people miss this because they see a 'good save' as a save in which a goalkeeper makes a full-length dive and/or flying save. I checked out the xG of the saves DDG made at the weekend and the Zouma header was 0.02 and the Rice shot was 0.02*. In simple terms, those were both difficult chances and unlikely to result in a goal.

Allisson regularly makes less flashy saves but from shots with much higher xG. One-vs-one's, shots from close range, shots from central areas...all saved because he charges at the ball like a man possessed and throws himself at the attacker. DDG would stay on his line, be beaten by the shot and the pundits would say 'nothing the GK would do'. Well there is something he can do...leave his line and affect the situation!

* I understand an 'expected goal' and an 'expected save' are not the same thing....i.e. a long-range shot might have a 0.02xG but it might be powerful and right in the top corner and become a 0.25xS, for example. However....my point is...I'd rather my goalkeeper be good at saving high-xG efforts than making flashy stops from the odd improbable effort

Again....I caveat all of this by saying DDG was, in my opinion, one of the best GKs in the World for a period of time...I feel that hasn't now been the case since Jose's final season

Allison is a monster one on one, probably the best in the world. It would great if De Gea was even half as good but he's not. He is awful one on one IMO. Rather than close the angle and rush the attacker his style of staying back basically relies on the attacker not being a very good finisher and when they put it in the top corner everyone will just say what a finish nothing the keeper could do.

Now he does save some doing this and his reflexes and agility certainly give him a chance but he still very much relies on it being a poor finish.

But perhaps the most unflashiest unnoticed thing Allison would do instead for the Zouma chance is claim the original corner. Noone would notice it, it wouldn't be highlight on MOTD noone would be on forums talking about how Allison saved us again with his corner claim. But it stops the attack dead and gives you a chance of starting a dangerous counter or having a period of controlled possession. By far the most underrated value of any GK is having someone who turns potentially dangerous periods of defensive pressure, into dangerous attacks of your own on a regular basis.

 

[Passitlikescholes]

I added a bit more to my post. I think our past managers just accepted it as a weaker part of his game. He wasn't being encouraged to do it. I may have misunderstood the post. I assumed he was saying that De Gea had actively been told not to sweep. That sounds very unlikely to me.

De Gea is obviously now being told to sweep, and he's having to change his game to accommodate the request. It would have really benefited us if it were a natural part of his game throughout all of his time here.

Wouldn't it be because Ole and Mourinho were counter attacking managers and our tactics didn't really need a sweeping keeper

Given the massive leaps in tactical decisions by some of our other players (ie Dalot) I'd also suggest there's a strong influence of ETH developing their positioning and triggers of when to move.

 

[largelyworried]

Allisson is a better 'shot-stopper' than DDG too. His style of goalkeeping might not be as flashy as DDG but the number of blocks he makes in one vs one situations by charging out and closing the angle quickly is insane.

Again, people miss this because they see a 'good save' as a save in which a goalkeeper makes a full-length dive and/or flying save. I checked out the xG of the saves DDG made at the weekend and the Zouma header was 0.02 and the Rice shot was 0.02*. In simple terms, those were both difficult chances and unlikely to result in a goal.

Allisson regularly makes less flashy saves but from shots with much higher xG. One-vs-one's, shots from close range, shots from central areas...all saved because he charges at the ball like a man possessed and throws himself at the attacker. DDG would stay on his line, be beaten by the shot and the pundits would say 'nothing the GK would do'. Well there is something he can do...leave his line and affect the situation!

* I understand an 'expected goal' and an 'expected save' are not the same thing....i.e. a long-range shot might have a 0.02xG but it might be powerful and right in the top corner and become a 0.25xS, for example. However....my point is...I'd rather my goalkeeper be good at saving high-xG efforts than making flashy stops from the odd improbable effort

Again....I caveat all of this by saying DDG was, in my opinion, one of the best GKs in the World for a period of time...I feel that hasn't now been the case since Jose's final season

Fbref has post-shot xG, ie what is the liklihood of a shot going in after its been taken, as opposed to the xG of the chance in the first place.

https://fbref.com/en/matches/cd0f59...est-Ham-United-October-30-2022-Premier-League

 

[Desert Eagle]

With pretty much any save, no matter how difficult, you can argue any given PL standard goalkeeper could save it. The point is that some goalkeepers have the capacity to save them more consistently than others do. You're not going to get saves that literally only the best shot-stopper(s) could save.

I don't see much point in talking semantics about whether De Gea's saves in any given game were great or just good. He's been here long enough that it should be taken as read that (allowing for the vagaries of form) he's an extremely gifted shot-stopper, almost certainly more so than anyone we will bring in to replace him will be.

The point is always what he offers as an overall package versus what other keepers might. The fact that he's capable of exceptional shot-stopping performances is a given within that debate.

Was an extremely gifted shit stopper. He's been average for almost five years now.

 

[sullydnl]

Was an extremely gifted shit stopper. He's been average for almost five years now.

No, even still. As it stand right now he still has outstanding reflexes and a capacity for high level shot-stopping performances beyond most goalkeepers.

That doesn't mean he doesn't also have flaws, including flaws that can drag down his average shot-stopping stats across full seasons, or that he hasn't had seasons of poor form in recent years. But the actual talent is still present.

 

[Lyng]

Was an extremely gifted shit stopper. He's been average for almost five years now.

Zoumas header would go past any other goalkeeper. Maybe Alisson saves it, but noone else.

 

[Desert Eagle]

No, even still. As it stand right now he still has outstanding reflexes and a capacity for high level shot-stopping performances beyond most goalkeepers.

That doesn't mean he doesn't also have flaws, including flaws that can drag down his average shot-stopping stats across full seasons, or that he hasn't had seasons of poor form in recent years. But the actual talent is still present.

Sure he has some talent and reflexes still but it's clearly decreased from his peak. All his other flaws no longer make up for his one strength.

Zoumas header would go past any other goalkeeper. Maybe Alisson saves it, but noone else.

Watch it again. It's a flicked header from beyond the penalty spot. It's not even in the corner. If you really think no other keeper is saving that apart from maybe Alisson then

 

[Lyng]

Sure he has some talent and reflexes still but it's clearly decreased from his peak. All his other flaws no longer make up for his one strength.



Watch it again. It's a flicked header from beyond the penalty spot. It's not even in the corner. If you really think no other keeper is saving that apart from maybe Alisson then

Look at what actual professional keepers say about that save and then come back.

 

[Desert Eagle]

Look at what actual professional keepers say about that save and then come back.

Maybe use your own eyes and judgement. 1:17 of the video for those interested.

 

[Lyng]

Maybe use your own eyes and judgement.

I did, and what I saw then got backed up by the statement from keepers like Peter Schmeichel.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

No, even still. As it stand right now he still has outstanding reflexes and a capacity for high level shot-stopping performances beyond most goalkeepers.

That doesn't mean he doesn't also have flaws, including flaws that can drag down his average shot-stopping stats across full seasons, or that he hasn't had seasons of poor form in recent years. But the actual talent is still present.

I would definitely fancy him above most other goalkeepers to pull off the sort of save we saw on Sunday. But shot stopping is a broad church. I've lost faith in him on one v one situations. There was a time when he seemed to be better than most but someone like Allison seems a level above him now. Much quicker and more aggressive off his line. He just seems harder to beat. There must be stats on this? What does your twitter goalkeeping expert guy say about DDG in a one v one?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Zoumas header would go past any other goalkeeper. Maybe Alisson saves it, but noone else.

I'm not sure about this. It was a header from a very long way out. It was a good save but nothing particularly outstanding. He wasn't even at full stretch.

 

[Lyng]

I'm not sure about this. It was a header from a very long way out. It was a good save but nothing particularly outstanding. He wasn't even at full stretch.

No but that is because he anticipates the direction even before Zouma hits it. He actually moves before its hit. At the same time it has a lot of speed and he manages to not only get a hand on it but also get it past goal.
Its an extremely impressive save which the likes of Peter Schmeichel (who should know) have said.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

No but that is because he anticipates the direction even before Zouma hits it. He actually moves before its hit. At the same time it has a lot of speed and he manages to not only get a hand on it but also get it past goal.
Its an extremely impressive save which the likes of Peter Schmeichel (who should know) have said.

If Zouma had scored a header from that far out it would have been an absolutely incredible goal. Can’t remember the last time I saw a headed goal scored from that far out. Which puts the save into perspective IMO. Whatever Schmeicel says (do you have a link to his opinion?)

 

[sullydnl]

I would definitely fancy him above most other goalkeepers to pull off the sort of save we saw on Sunday. But shot stopping is a broad church. I've lost faith in him on one v one situations. There was a time when he seemed to be better than most but someone like Allison seems a level above him now. Much quicker and more aggressive off his line. He just seems harder to beat. There must be stats on this? What does your twitter goalkeeping expert guy say about DDG in a one v one?

That he works out as pretty much bang average:

Basically his data on 1v1s suggests that when the attacker is further out the goalkeeper is better off staying deep, trusting his reflexes and reacting to the shot. Whereas when the attacker is within about 13.5 yards of goal the probability of being able to make the save drops too much, so the goalkeeper is better off rushing out to try and smother the attacker instead.

As you could probably guess, De Gea is one of the best in the league in one of those scenarios and one of the worst in the league in the other.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

That he works out as pretty much bang average:

Basically his data on 1v1s suggests that when the attacker is further out the goalkeeper is better off staying deep, trusting his reflexes and reacting to the shot. Whereas when the attacker is within about 13.5 yards of goal the probability of being able to make the save drops too much, so the goalkeeper is better off rushing out to try and smother the attacker instead.

As you could probably guess, De Gea is one of the best in the league in one of those scenarios and one of the worst in the league in the other.

Interesting. Thanks. Certainly adds some nuance to his reputation as a great shot stopper.

For a team with aspirations like ours it’s not really good enough to have a keeper with a “bang average” outcome every time he faces a one v one. Looking at the actual numbers even calling him average is flattering. Seems to be closer to the very worst than the very best.

 

[Lyng]

If Zouma had scored a header from that far out it would have been an absolutely incredible goal. Can’t remember the last time I saw a headed goal scored from that far out. Which puts the save into perspective IMO. Whatever Schmeicel says (do you have a link to his opinion?)

Right after the save the tweeted out: De Gea. Ubelievable with clapping hands emoji.

 

[sullydnl]

Interesting. Thanks. Certainly adds some nuance to his reputation as a great shot stopper.

For a team with aspirations like ours it’s not really good enough to have a keeper with a “bang average” outcome every time he faces a one v one.

True, though you could point to Ederson who is also average on 1v1s as per that analysis, except in his case it's for the exact opposite reason as he's too quick to rush out:



What's probably key there is the fact that despite being in such an attacking side, Ederson faced the fifth fewest 1v1s of goalkeepers on that list. Whereas someone like Alison was pretty significantly busier, facing 54 versus Ederson's 31. If your team protects you more a lot flies under the radar...

Depending on how many De Gea faces, it's probably less of a problem than him not being able to claim crosses or whatever.

 

[Lyng]

Moyes reaction was fun

 

[Lentwood]

Fbref has post-shot xG, ie what is the liklihood of a shot going in after its been taken, as opposed to the xG of the chance in the first place.

https://fbref.com/en/matches/cd0f59...est-Ham-United-October-30-2022-Premier-League

Interesting but we really are getting into the realms of the highly theoretical/subjective use of statistics and Data there!

I think I mentioned elsewhere, I do tonnes of statistical analysis on horse races using sectional times - if you only ever bet on the horses who simply post the fastest times or even fastest sectional times, you'll go bust fast!

Still...as I said, interesting. Better to have it and apply it selectively or with caveats than not at all