[sullydnl]

I don't know why this discussion is framed around stats so much when you can actually just see with your eyes that he isn't all that good.

You can see him not claiming crosses. You can see him look visibly uncomfortable on the ball under pressure. You can see that he doesn't sweep that much. And in terms of his shot-stopping, if you watched him several seasons ago when he was actually a world class shot-stopper and you watch him now you can see the drop-off.

Yet it seems to constantly be people posting stats vs people dismissing stats, more so than when we argue about other players.

 

[Sylar]

The pile on is something alright.

An extremely poor outting from him, it might actually just wake people up to how much his skillset and style is just bad for the team overall.

Some wont wake up, you can already see it. Some are putting it as, ah well, nobody can do better, etc. I am actually baffled (im baffled quite a bit with this forum tbh) at people on here. Defend him against abuse, I will do the same.
But you just need to look at his performances year upon year (well not you, since its obvious your eyes are open)
I had the same thing with regards to Rooney until people finally realised we couldnt keep carrying him.

Spoiler: Source

How things have come full circle. My clearest memory of De Gea starting to let us down first begun against Sevilla actually, during CL 2018 in the second leg at Old Trafford. And that was a "regular" goalkeeping error. By regular I mean through handling rather than kicking. Really weak shite of him to concede that goal and he has conceded similar ones since then too. You can remind yourself of that particular goal at 2:36 here:





His last great performance was away against Arsenal in late 2017 and I have been banging on that drum for a few years now, here and there. His steady decline started a couple of months after that monster match — in that first loss against Sevilla — and it has continued in various performances from then on. And it took off for real after his clanger for Spain against Portugal in WC 2018 and all but finished his national team duties. Regarding us though, he has let us down more than he has bailed us out now during at least 5 seasons…and counting:




Please get rid, it is ridiculously overdue.

A good thought out post. I might do an addition to this post later (I was thinking about this when discussing DDG with friends on how much he has let us down). Its actually even longer than 2017 in terms of how much hes let us down in key moments and important must win games. Ill look to put it together (tbf i just need to copy some of my whatsapp discussions )

I don't know why this discussion is framed around stats so much when you can actually just see with your eyes that he isn't all that good.

You can see him not claiming crosses. You can see him look visibly uncomfortable on the ball under pressure. You can see that he doesn't sweep that much. And in terms of his shot-stopping, if you watched him several seasons ago when he was actually a world class shot-stopper and you watch him now you can see the drop-off.

Yet it seems to constantly be people posting stats vs people dismissing stats, more so than when we argue about other players.

Agreed.
And it only happens with goalkeepers. You can see with the eye for outfield players, somebody like McTominay or WW isnt good enough. You dont need stats for that.

 

[Abraxas]

I don't know why this discussion is framed around stats so much when you can actually just see with your eyes that he isn't all that good.

You can see him not claiming crosses. You can see him look visibly uncomfortable on the ball under pressure. You can see that he doesn't sweep that much. And in terms of his shot-stopping, if you watched him several seasons ago when he was actually a world class shot-stopper and you watch him now you can see the drop-off.

Yet it seems to constantly be people posting stats vs people dismissing stats, more so than when we argue about other players.

I think because stats are very useful for keepers in my opinion.

One of the most common debates in football must be whether a keeper should have saved a particular shot. It's extraordinarily hard to identify in the non obvious cases. Mainly because if the keeper is positioned slightly off, or makes a slightly late reaction, it's not necessarily clear, except maybe to a trained eye such as an ex keeper. All you see is a ball fly in and it looks unsavable in that particular case. That's a fairly large part of the keepers remit that isn't that easy to firstly analyse or keep track of over a long period of time. But some of the advanced metrics can help with this.

I believe this explanation is why many still think DDG is a top shot stopper, and no doubt years ago he probably was. So I'd say you are right that we can see with our eyes that he's not good when he plays like last night, and we can certainly see he doesn't have authority or isn't among the best distributors, but the argument that is harder to dispute is when people believe his shot stopping is usually good, and that this makes up for other deficiencies. Or that he's good enough overall to be a non-priority for a replacement.

The statistics can elaborate a lot further than going "well did you watch the game" can. Because evidently people do watch with their eyes but we tend to remember in snapshots of what took place, such as whether he made a clear blunder, a flashy save and generally got the ball to teammates.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

I think because stats are very useful for keepers in my opinion.

One of the most common debates in football must be whether a keeper should have saved a particular shot. It's extraordinarily hard to identify in the non obvious cases. Mainly because if the keeper is positioned slightly off, or makes a slightly late reaction, it's not necessarily clear, except maybe to a trained eye such as an ex keeper. All you see is a ball fly in and it looks unsavable in that particular case. That's a fairly large part of the keepers remit that isn't that easy to firstly analyse or keep track of over a long period of time. But some of the advanced metrics can help with this.

I believe this explanation is why many still think DDG is a top shot stopper, and no doubt years ago he probably was. So I'd say you are right that we can see with our eyes that he's not good when he plays like last night, and we can certainly see he doesn't have authority or isn't among the best distributors, but the argument that is harder to dispute is when people believe his shot stopping is usually good, and that this makes up for other deficiencies. Or that he's good enough overall to be a non-priority for a replacement.

The statistics can elaborate a lot further than going "well did you watch the game" can. Because evidently people do watch with their eyes but we tend to remember in snapshots of what took place, such as whether he made a clear blunder, a flashy save and generally got the ball to teammates.

Great post, and it would explain why so many have refused to accept his decline as a shot stopper. Because to the naked eye you’ll see highlight saves that look like the same player from 2017 and unless he has true howlers like last night you won’t notice the poorer side of his shot stopping. So unless someone cares enough to actually look at the data, they’ll just accept that “well at least he’s still a great shot stopper”

 

[JG3001]

Said it before and I’ll say it again, he’s being given the Wayne Rooney status by too many sentimental fans. The odd wonder save does not cover the fact he has been responsible for multiple losses over the last 3 seasons. Needs shipping out ASAP

 

[Olecurls99]

Shocking mistake last night. Thankfully they're few and far between.

 

[Remember the geese]

Shocking mistake last night. Thankfully they're few and far between.

Hardly. Get rid!

 

[Scorpy]

Shitting my pants every time the opposition is about to take a set piece near our box or a corner kick, as you just know De Gea will be rooted to the goal line thus putting unnecessary pressure on the defence.

His kicking is terrible as well. We really should look into getting a new keeper, though I'd imagine this will be done next year, with a new striker and a new midfielder + right back being the priorities this summer.

 

[McGrathsipan]

Shocking mistake last night. Thankfully they're few and far between.

there was two howlers in the same game last night.

 

[Idxomer]

Great post, and it would explain why so many have refused to accept his decline as a shot stopper. Because to the naked eye you’ll see highlight saves that look like the same player from 2017 and unless he has true howlers like last night you won’t notice the poorer side of his shot stopping. So unless someone cares enough to actually look at the data, they’ll just accept that “well at least he’s still a great shot stopper”

He still has the occasional world-class save but so is every other keeper in a top European league and even in some shit leagues around the world. He was consistent in those till 2018 tbf more than anyone else but it's ridiculous how long he has been bad without many people calling for his head. One thing I noticed with De Gea is how these days he makes most of his saves look much more difficult than they really are. Maybe that's another sign of his steep decline.

 

[pratyush_utd]

Look at the space Maguire had when he asked for the ball. Still had plenty of options. Just shows how bad “ ball playing CB” he actually is

 

[Sylar]

A pass along the floor bouncing several times is pretty impressive.

As is the fact that the a Sevilla player moved as quick as a ddg pass even though a player should never be faster than an opposition passing a ball.

there was two howlers in the same game last night.

Which one are you not counting, his pass to Maguire or being lobbed a yard of his goal line?

 

[Oranges038]

Look at the space Maguire had when he asked for the ball. Still had plenty of options. Just shows how bad “ ball playing CB” he actually is

Watch the video, the pass into him was shite.

 

[McGrathsipan]

A pass along the floor bouncing several times is pretty impressive.

As is the fact that the a Sevilla player moved as quick as a ddg pass even though a player should never be faster than an opposition passing a ball.



Which one are you not counting, his pass to Maguire or being lobbed a yard of his goal line?

The lob - so yeah , fecking 3 howlers

 

[sebsheep]

On another note hes on 375K, but ive read united want him to re-sign for 200K almost half his current wage. What employer in any walk of life halves someones wages and expects the same day to day drive and comitment?

Naturally any employee would be unhappy to some extent and must affect them in some way even if it was a fair thing to do. I can't see Degea performing better in this scenario and psycologically it seems a silly thing to do.

They should just play Henderson who had better stats and save £20 million on Degea's wages. Or sell Henderson as well, and get another Keeper on 100K a week.

Also, did you know: Maguire is the 9th highest paid player - 8 others are paid more than him.

Guy was putting in similar performances years ago whilst comfortably having a long time on his 375k a week deal.

 

[MadDogg]

Look at the space Maguire had when he asked for the ball. Still had plenty of options. Just shows how bad “ ball playing CB” he actually is

The second pic is literally the moment he receives the ball from De Gea. It more shows how bad the pass from De Gea truly was. Maguire obviously messed up as well, but it was a hospital ball from De Gea.

 

[dpansheth]

Maguire has his back turned and was looking at DDG when asking for a pass. We already know his positional awareness is nothing to write home about. The whole team would probably know as well, DDG a veteran with so much experience should know his center backs as well. if he doesnt then its on him.
When Maguire asks for the ball, its a bad decision from him, but DDG had the entire field visible to him. He saw 3 players closing on Maguire, that should have made him chose the area vacated by these three players. He did not. & thats on him.

Both are chuckle brothers, but this one is on DDG because after Maguire's decision to ask for the ball, he could have refused and picked another option. The game was tied at that point, we were rattled and there was no reason for him to take unnecessary risks, especially given how dodgy both DDG & Maguire are with passing & positioning.

 

[Lay]

Shocking mistake last night. Thankfully they're few and far between.

feck sake

 

[FootyGirl88]

 

[quadrant]

Look at the space Maguire had when he asked for the ball. Still had plenty of options. Just shows how bad “ ball playing CB” he actually is

The problem is that De Gea then took a bad touch, then took more time to set himself, then played a bad ball to Maguire. So by the time the ball reaches Maguire, the space is long gone. If DDG had passed it first time with his left foot in the space in front of Maguire, Maguire had an easy pass straight to AWB out wide.

Maguire should have done better, albeit with a bad ball, but the shout was fine.

 

[edgecutter]

Do people honestly think City would put up with Ederson if he played like de gea? He would be long gone, but our club has sentimental problems and keeps players far too long on ludicrous contracts

 

[lsd]

The second pic is literally the moment he receives the ball from De Gea. It more shows how bad the pass from De Gea truly was. Maguire obviously messed up as well, but it was a hospital ball from De Gea.

You are reaching the second pic just proves how easy it would have been for Maguire to just turn round and play the ball upfield not panic and do what he did.

I think it's very telling that Ten Hag made a point of stating De Gea had saved us enough in previous games while saying nothing about Maguire.

There's no way Maguire will be at United next season. Erik has absolutely no faith in him

 

[Who's Kissing Cameras?]

Shocking mistake last night. Thankfully they're few and far between.

 

[quadrant]

You are reaching the second pic just proves how easy it would have been for Maguire to just turn round and play the ball upfield not panic and do what he did.

That's an advantage only we have due to the camera position, Maguire can't see behind him. All Maguire knows is there a player in his blind spot, he can't know what angle the player is covering, because as soon as DDG passes the ball he has to watch as it comes to him. As it happens, yes, he could absolutely have turned and carried it into midfield, but he couldn't know that then.

You're right though, Maguire won't be here next season. He's only playing now due to injury.

 

[Isotope]

Look at the space Maguire had when he asked for the ball. Still had plenty of options. Just shows how bad “ ball playing CB” he actually is

ANd no one was close challenging him either. He had enough time. THe Sevilla guy was literally in front of him the fecking whole time. It was silly to put any blame to DDG.

 

[Sylar]

You guys

 

[pratyush_utd]

Watch the video, the pass into him was shite.

I dont see any issue in pass as well. Maguire stood to receive the pass. I cant believe he didnt see the space just right next to the player he passed to.

This goal just show how bad “ball playing CB” Maguire is. These kind of passed are played to other CB as well and they beat the press easily.

All Maguire had to do was to continue his movement and open his body slightly and let the ball slide forward. The player he passed to was in his eyesight so its not like he didnt know space wasn’t available.

Only mistake De Gea did here was to trust on Maguire’s ability as a footballer

 

[lsd]

I dont see any issue in pass as well. Maguire stood to receive the pass. I cant believe he didnt see the space just right next to the player he passed to.

This goal just show how bad “ball playing CB” Maguire is. These kind of passed are played to other CB as well and they beat the press easily.

All Maguire had to do was to continue his movement and open his body slightly and let the ball slide forward. The player he passed to was in his eyesight so its not like he didnt know space wasn’t available.

Only mistake De Gea did here was to trust on Maguire’s ability as a footballer

The pass literally took the two players out that Maguire then managed to gift the ball too

 

[Sylar]

I dont see any issue in pass as well.

@Oranges038 ..mate.........

 

[fallengt]

Pep, Klopp, Arteta all got rid of their Goal Keepers, even spent a fortune because of said GK's limitations. It's been proven that a modern Gk allow teams to play exactly how they want to play. Why ETH and United think they can do it differently?
Yesterday game would be a carrier ending game for many goal keepers but at United, they'd get rewarded for it with new contract. What is the goal here?

 

[JB7]

I dont see any issue in pass as well. Maguire stood to receive the pass. I cant believe he didnt see the space just right next to the player he passed to.

This goal just show how bad “ball playing CB” Maguire is. These kind of passed are played to other CB as well and they beat the press easily.

All Maguire had to do was to continue his movement and open his body slightly and let the ball slide forward. The player he passed to was in his eyesight so its not like he didnt know space wasn’t available.

Only mistake De Gea did here was to trust on Maguire’s ability as a footballer

He kicked the ball into the fecking ground. You yourself have brought up the screenshots to show how much space Maguire was in when he asked for the ball versus when the ball actually arrived with him. That is how bad the ball was.

Are you completely blind or just tunnel vision "everything must be Maguires fault".

Nobody is saying Maguire isn't at fault. But the ball into him is pathetic.

 

[Rolaholic]

 

[Marwood]

Look at the space Maguire had when he asked for the ball. Still had plenty of options. Just shows how bad “ ball playing CB” he actually is

Can you list all the options he had?

He's a CB remember not Messi.

 

[pratyush_utd]

He kicked the ball into the fecking ground. You yourself have brought up the screenshots to show how much space Maguire was in when he asked for the ball versus when the ball actually arrived with him. That is how bad the ball was.

Are you completely blind or just tunnel vision "everything must be Maguires fault".

Nobody is saying Maguire isn't at fault. But the ball into him is pathetic.

I am not blind but i am not going to waste any more time on this.

Maybe see this video and see what a proper footballer can do when he is pressed.



Maguire was slow as feck in not only receiving the pass but also cant turn to save his life. Managed to pass to the player which the ball had already passed by. I mean are we talking about 80m English international or some school boy central defender here? Maguire panicked and fecked up a simple pass. A lot of GK around the world play that kind of risky pass, but get away with it because their central defender can actually play football

 

[Marwood]

I am not blind but i am not going to waste any more time on this.

Maybe see this video and see what a proper footballer can do when he is pressed.



Maguire was slow as feck in not only receiving the pass but also cant turn to save his life. Managed to pass to the player which the ball had already passed by. I mean are we talking about 80m English international or some school boy central defender here? Maguire panicked and fecked up a simple pass. A lot of GK around the world play that kind of risky pass, but get away with it because their central defender can actually play football

You're missing the point. That was still a bad pass. Martinez doing brilliantly doesn't change that.

It's not a percentage pass. Put Martinez in that situation 10 times I'm not sure he could pull that off more than 50%. Varane certainly couldn't or most CB's in fact.

 

[pratyush_utd]

Can you list all the options he had?

He's a CB remember not Messi.

Maybe not pass to the player he passed to? Boot it out. Or simply dropped his shoulder and turned away from goal? Do you think only Messi caliber players are capable of simple turn to evade press?

Original point was, pass was risky but Maguire is at fault here. If i have to give percentage, it would be 75% maguire fault and 25% De Gea. Maybe De Gea should have done this when Maguire asked for the ball

 

[RedDevil@84]

I dont see any issue in pass as well. Maguire stood to receive the pass. I cant believe he didnt see the space just right next to the player he passed to.

This goal just show how bad “ball playing CB” Maguire is. These kind of passed are played to other CB as well and they beat the press easily.

All Maguire had to do was to continue his movement and open his body slightly and let the ball slide forward. The player he passed to was in his eyesight so its not like he didnt know space wasn’t available.

Only mistake De Gea did here was to trust on Maguire’s ability as a footballer

While I don't agree to putting all the blame on De Gea and agree that Maguire made a mess of the ball when it came to him, but the pass was not on.
De Gea should have known that, regardless of whether Maguire asked for the ball or not.

 

[Sylar]

Pep, Klopp, Arteta all got rid of their Goal Keepers, even spent a fortune because of said GK's limitations. It's been proven that a modern Gk allow teams to play exactly how they want to play. Why ETH and United think they can do it differently?
Yesterday game would be a carrier ending game for many goal keepers but at United, they'd get rewarded for it with new contract. What is the goal here?

Tbf to Eth, he won't trash ddg whilst he's here. (And Probably won't when he's sold)

The fact that we went into the season with eriksen (free) and Malacia (17m) and Martinez (47m) and only got Antony and casemiro (iirc) afterwards shows how desperate we are with these owners.
I'm sure if we had the money we probably would have replaced ddg, got a rb, got a striker and not the Jan loans either.

I also don't think we need a "modern" keeper to see an improvement. We just need a goalkeeper that can do the standard GK things in a solid fashion, instead of one that had outstanding shotstopping from years past.

I do agree with your general point but I seriously think we need our ownership sorted to act like a real football club again

 

[Marwood]

Maybe not pass to the player he passed to? Boot it out. Or simply dropped his shoulder and turned away from goal? Do you think only Messi caliber players are capable of simple turn to evade press?

Original point was, pass was risky but Maguire is at fault here. If i have to give percentage, it would be 75% maguire fault and 25% De Gea. Maybe De Gea should have done this when Maguire asked for the ball

So when you say "plenty of options" you mean boot it out(he'd likely have to boot it out for a corner) or drop his shoulder and beat three players(how many times do you see a CB doing this?)

That alone should tell you something about the De Gea pass.

 

[pratyush_utd]

While I don't agree to putting all the blame on De Gea and agree that Maguire made a mess of the ball when it came to him, but the pass was not on.
De Gea should have known that, regardless of whether Maguire asked for the ball or not.

I agree pass was risky, but it wasn’t like “end of the world” kind of pass people here are making it out to be. The player who intercepted the pass, was already taken out by the original pass from De Gea. Maguire actually passed back to him.

I wouldnt have berated Maguire if he was dispossessed. That shit happens. But the pass was unforgivable considering he could see the player he passed to. This was all down to panic and his lack of confidence in his ability at the moment.