If he can agree to a substantial reduction, keep him. He should not earn more than Allison.
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Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 58
- Clean sheets
- 25
- Goals
- 0
- Assists
- 0
- Yellow cards
- 2
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) look forward to a new life under Ruben Amorim. What system will we be playing? What players will impress? and how will it all go? We also say goodbye to Ruud Van Nistelrooy and review United's 3-0 win at home against Leicester City.
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He shouldn't earn half what Alisson earns if we're talking genuine worth.
Ah yes, that well known tactic to get rid of a problem...offering it a new contract. Works every time.
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Every goalkeeper once in a while gives the ball away if he is put under pressure - Allison is one of the best, he still gives the ball away. The question we should be asking - why does a defender play the ball straight back to DDG when the nearest opponent is less than 10 meters away (like the situation with Toney) - compare that to how much space we allowed the Brentford-defenders. Our players were posted well outside the box and 90% of the time, not one of our attackers attempted to put pressure on them. That makes a bit of a difference. Still Raya gave the ball away twice when put under semi-pressure.
I am sorry - these stats mean nothing - simply because in 2 games where we gave our opponents 13 goals - our defenders capitulated. DDG has had a few blunders this season (as has most keepers in the P.L) - but looking back at those goals against City and Liverpool - at least 10 of those goals were down to our defenders not giving a sh.....
As for Raya - he has a huge advantage being the Brentford goalkeeper. Brentford plays with 10 men in defense - every single player in front of him is 6'2 og 6'3 - as we saw the other night, it's virtually impossible to play your way through that defense so teams need to shoot a lot. Shots from 25 yards out are easy to save compared to some of the saves DDG need to make since we play a different style of football which allows our opponents more space.
DDG makes 1 save every 2 or so games that Raya would never make - and if you remove only the 6 goals that our defenders gave Liverpool - his stats would look a hell of a lot better.
So according to you De Gea saves about 30 goals a season that most other keepers wouldn't? Not even at his absolute best (17/18) was that close to being true. Hell, if that were true we'd be conceding more goals than every team in the league bar one.
I can see you don’t understand the comment so let me put it this way.
Just because David Raya or Pickford has better stats playing for Brentford or Everton, doesn’t mean they would be better GKs for Manchester United than DDG.
No no no.
The stats are better so therefore these are better keepers. No context allowed I'm afraid.
Yeah, they only mean nothing because you want them to.
Instead of making stuff up.
Provide some tangible proof that most of the shots he saves are from 25 yards out?
From what I gather, they've offered him closer to what he's worth, but like some people on here DDG seems to be fairly delusional as to how good he really is.
If he's still one of the best goalkeepers in the world, them why aren't they just offering him the same terms or more to stay on?
Is anyone really saying he is? I've not seen it on here but, yeh, he's clearly no longer a top five or ten keeper in the world. But we also obviously want him to stay otherwise we wouldn't be offering a new contract, albeit on reduced terms.
These stats mean very little - because they will always favour good goalkeepers in shit clubs. It's the same as people looking at passing stats and come to the conclusion that a player with 90 % passing success is a better passer of the ball than one with 85% without looking at the bigger picture. In some games this season we have been appalling defensively - Brentford (where DDG was one of the main culprits), Liverpool and City where our defenders and midfielders were awful. And that is not making stuff up - without these 2 games where DDG had very little blame, his stats would be a lot better.
Oh btw - if you think the stats mean so much:
Care to explain why Ederson is ranked 19 and Henderson 18, oh and Keylar Navas is 16 - but the 5 keepers with the best stats are: Allison, Leno, Kepa, Pickford and Neto -
You can take a look at Rayas best saves on any youtube video - you will be shocked as to how many of those are shots from 25 yards out - and its logical with thet way Brentford play. And for the record - I am not saying Raya is a bad keeper, of course he isn't. I just find it a bit strange that people mention him as a goalkeeper to replace DDG. He has shown nothing to indicate that he is a better keeper than DDG
A post with context and not just blindly looking at numbers, rare sight to see today, great post mate.
Again, why do we ALWAYS limit ourselves to just talking about fecking shot-stopping when discussing goalkeepers? Arsenal and Manchester City are the two best sides in England right now and neither of their goalkeepers are otherworldly shot-stoppers. They actually got better when they replaced Leno and Hart respectively with WORSE shot-stoppers, because they had managers who appreciated that the overall value that Ramsdale and Ederson respectively brought to their play more than outweighed that.
To say "Raya has done nothing to prove he's better than De Gea" is utter nonsense even if you accept that he's not as good a shot stopper. In the realm of commanding his area, Raya is unquestionably better than De Gea. I'm sorry but you can't "the stats don't actually matter" your way out of that one; De Gea is also shite at it using the eye test.
This is the problem I have with the camp that thinks we shouldn't replace De Gea. To be blunt, they seem to have no ability to look beyond shot stopping when considering the value that a goalkeeper can bring to the side. I suspect that's precisely because De Gea does very little else particularly well.
To say "Raya has done nothing to prove he's better than De Gea" is utter nonsense even if you accept that he's not as good a shot stopper. In the realm of commanding his area, Raya is unquestionably better than De Gea. I'm sorry but you can't "the stats don't actually matter" your way out of that one; De Gea is also shite at it using the eye test.
This is the problem I have with the camp that thinks we shouldn't replace De Gea. To be blunt, they seem to have no ability to look beyond shot stopping when considering the value that a goalkeeper can bring to the side. I suspect that's precisely because De Gea does very little else particularly well.
You know what.
I'm not overly focused on stats, they just backup what the eye test tells us. That DDG isn't as good as shot stopper as people like to believe, he's rubbish under a high ball, his passing isn't good enough and he's not very good at sweeping.
How else can you explain it to people who baselessly claim he's still a great shot stopper? I don't think he is, I think he makes some great saves, but he also lets in a lot of goals that he should save. And the numbers reflect that.
Back up your claims that Raya faces more shots and makes more saves from shots outside the box? Because at the start of this season they had actually conceded more goals from outside the box than anyone else since they came up.
It's also not really about who is better, each team has a different style and it's about how each player suits the team style. When your keeper is in the bottom rung for nearly every performance metric, and your manager compromises his whole style to suit his deficiencies. To come out and claim other keepers aren't better or couldn't do better is fecking nonsense.
Raya would suit how ETH wants to play more so than DDG. He's a better shot stopper, he's better under high balls, he's better at sweeping and he's better with the ball at his feet. The numbers backup and reflect all these things. Just like Pope at Burnley he was routinely in the top bracket for every performance metric, except passing and he's still doing it at Newcastle. These guys are just very good at the all round basics of being a keeper, they could perform to the same levels for any team.
But let's forget everything DDG doesn't do, keep inviting pressure by defending deeper than everyone else in the league, struggle under high balls having our defenders heading balls away under his nose in the 6 yard box, have him play players into trouble at the back and kick every second ball straight down the middle to the opposition. All because he can occasionally make a good save.
Fantastic shot stopper but unfortunately his kicking has let us down too often. I close my eyes when we keep passing back to him.
It's all they have really, but when it's pointed out that he's not actually that great at the one thing they think he's great at, the stats don't matter.
It's Ronaldo and his goals all over again, he scores goals he's not a problem.... some people thought, but the bigger picture told a different story.
It totally ignored how his style didn't sit well within the team. DDG might be a good personality and a good lad to have around the team and less of a toxic negative presence than Ronaldo was. But, his style is totally at odds with the direction the team needs to go. There has to be casualties along the way for the good of the team. He should be one of them.
The Ronaldo comparison is an apt one. I felt like I was going insane hearing "Ronaldo and De Gea are the only thing stopping this United side from being relegated" on repeat last season.
Another phrase you used in an earlier post which I also think sums up the situation quite well as that Ten Hag is "compromising on his tactical style" to accommodate De Gea's weaknesses. Again, I think this is absolutely clear when watching us trying to play out of an opposition press and build from the back. Hell, Newcastle's Jacob Murphy as good as outright said that De Gea's kicks were a sign of encouragement for them:
Now, this is NOT to say that De Gea is the only thing wrong with the team in the build-up. Our midfield was also causing huge issues against Newcastle in particular, and Varane is also not amazing on the ball either. With that said, I don't think it should be controversial to say that when Ten Hag has everyone fit, De Gea is the starting player who causes the biggest problems in this regard.
This is why I routinely bring the conversation back to Aaron Ramsdale. He wasn't regarded as a particularly great goalkeeper before joining Arsenal, and I still don't think he's anything special. But he was much better suited to the system Arteta wanted to implement than Bernd Leno, and as a result Arsenal have gotten considerably better with him in net.
You would only ever find out if they can cope with playing for Man United, by playing for Man United. The only context available is the statistics.
Some people cant see past his camera saves, like you say unable to see the bigger picture. He offers so little else to the team and his flaws have to be covered by his teammates at the detriment of the team. E.g. we have to defend deeper and struggle to play out through a press so have to play long more than we would like.
We'll only see what we've been missing out on when he's replaced.
The decision how to press is made by the manager. By not pressing Raya we took away their options. They could not pass through us. Pressing Raya is dangerous because he can pass through it.
This is exactly why xG stats are in use. They will nullify this aspect as shot quality is calculated as a factor.
De Gea is oscillating between 15th - 8th (currently 11th) in shot stopping aspect based on xG model. This parameter is fecked for De Gea because of a few games when he conceded a lot of goals. Conceding 7 goals from 8 shots on target has nothing to do with how our defenders acted. It's a mix of Dave being poor and some bad luck, happens for every keeper.
Regardless of this discussion, I believe anyone who thinks he's a good shot stopper should be able to somehow justify that claim. The last attempt was this guy who did an analysis 4+ months ago and this was posted here like 100 times I think by one poster.
Considering De Gea has some serious deficiencies, he has to be top class shot stopper to be considered good enough for us, therefore again that should be easy to prove.
Man Utd 2:0 Everton
I thought his distribution was really good today. That ping to Antony was sublime
Was fantastic especially first half.
Not really tested today but he came and punched a ball that he never would have even tried to punch vs Newcastle.
One brilliant kick and one corner that he got bullied on.
His distribution was better than usual and I also remember him coming and punching really well once - but at numerous times he still stayed on the line/got bullied.
But this game is a good indirect illustration (by Pickford, who is a PL average GK at best) of why DDG's shot stopping whereas still quite good - is nothing special at this level any more (it was special several years ago).
If DDG had exactly the same game as Pickford today - I am 100% sure there would be relentless talk from those who advocate DDG staying as our Nr 1 about how "he makes saves other GKs cannot".
But this game is a good indirect illustration (by Pickford, who is a PL average GK at best) of why DDG's shot stopping whereas still quite good - is nothing special at this level any more (it was special several years ago).
If DDG had exactly the same game as Pickford today - I am 100% sure there would be relentless talk from those who advocate DDG staying as our Nr 1 about how "he makes saves other GKs cannot".
I thought his distribution was fantastic in the first half, thoroughly enjoyed that performance.
This was one of his worst games for highlight reel saves but also one of the better ones for everything else.
For all the shit he gets about his passing he almost got one of the best goalkeeper assists I’ve ever seen. That pass to Anthony was outrageous.
I think that's fair.
Which is what you want and hopefully he has until the end of the season
Not sure how much he could improve but I have no doubt he understands the task at hand. You see him coming outside his 6 yard box these days and chastising himself for a bad pass.
Yep.
Yep, I had the exact same though. Pickford's match was the absolute classic example of where people would be saying that nobody but De Gea would make the saves. In reality none of them were actually amazing saves, just like the majority of De Gea's saves that people call 'amazing'. They were all saves that any good keeper would be expected to make.
De Gea's long pass to Antony was very good. On the one hand it's a pass that I expect our keeper should be making as there was an absolute mile of space, but on the other hand De Gea doesn't normally make them so full credit to him for doing so this time.
So the Everton keeper has a really good game that reminds you of De Gea and De Gea plays a great pass. Yep I agree with that.
Both did what I expect any good keepers to do in those situations. So yes they were good, but we also shouldn't go overboard with either.
I think you're underrating that pass. It was gorgeous.
Pickford's been making them saves all season.
Credit to DDG today, passing was much better, love that pass to Antony, it's a pass most keepers should be capable of from time to time, but he really had fcuk all else to do.
If that game had been a one off - but we do that almost every game.
No mention of him passing the ball straight out of play because he didn't know what to do with it?
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