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Sorry, haven't seen that I didn't complete my sentence.Amazed by what?
It will be interesting to follow. I’ve already been surprised to what degree Ten Hag have prioritized De Gea, and how De Gea have adapted as well. No ‘operation sweet talk Henderson’, Heaton, Dubravka and Butland with only few minutes even in the cups, lauding De Gea publically several times, now talk of a new contract. Last spring/summer, from many it sounded like a dead giveaway that replacing De Gea was among the first things Ten Hag would do to start shaping the squad his way. It seems almost the opposite has happened. I certainly didn’t predict that.
So our entire squad are top4 level?Unless the measure is that we actually are.......?
Are they first team regular starters then? Great point.So then McT is too? Elanga too. Great point
Are they on world record contract for their position? Do we have two reserves level backups for their position?Are they first team regular starters then? Great point.
Look, you're going to owe me a fiver next year, don't be salty.Are they on world record contract for their position? Do we have two reserves level backups for their position?
Do you think Weghorst is top4 quality because he starts games?
Bolded. Fine, that's your opinion, I disagree but that's irrelevant.Look, you're going to owe me a fiver next year, don't be salty.
Re the bolded, the salary is totally irrelevant to the discussion. Do I think we can improve on ddg? Yes. Do I think he's a top four keeper? Also yes. None of that had anything to do with salary. As to the backup question, didn't we loan out Henderson who I presume you'll agree isn't a reserve level backup? And the reason for that was presumably because we trust ddg much more than someone that some were touting as a class PL level keeper? Go figure.
As for the weghorst point, it's already been addressed, read up.
Just from the common consensus being that we want a new goalkeeper. It is abundantly clear that De Gea isn't good enough. We can't get to where we want to be with him as first choice. Therefore, the only two options are:Where did you get this from?
Your opinion isn't common consensus. I have seen a fan poll recently that shows 80%+ in favor of DeGea staying as #1Just from the common consensus being that we want a new goalkeeper. It is abundantly clear that De Gea isn't good enough. We can't get to where we want to be with him as first choice. Therefore, the only two options are:
A) Sell Henderson. Keep De Gea on reduced terms and sign a new goalkeeper.
B) Allow De Gea to leave on a free.
If that is true, then it's pretty worrying really.Your opinion isn't common consensus. I have seen a fan poll recently that shows 80%+ in favor of DeGea staying as #1
But you're under a misapprehension, it's not just my view that he's a top four level goalkeeper. He is one, as he's ours and we are top four.Bolded. Fine, that's your opinion, I disagree but that's irrelevant.
My question is this, given that in your view he is a top four level goalkeeper, if money were no object, how many clubs currently in the top 10 of the Premier League do you think would trade their goalkeeper for him?
Sure, and even most club statements that undermine any player is bad for morale. As you expect us to prolong with him, if I understood you correctly, there would be no reason to undermine him neither.Sorry, haven't seen that I didn't complete my sentence.
Amazed by the club's soft touch approach towards squad planning.
In this specific case I think De Gea has very strong backroom support and any public statement that undermines him would be detrimental to morale
But that was shown to be ridiculous by your refusal to agree that Weghorst is a top four striker, which your logic suggests he is.But you're under a misapprehension, it's not just my view that he's a top four level goalkeeper. He is one, as he's ours and we are top four.
The question you ask has too many variables. There are keepers that are younger than him but (imo) not as good (ie raya). Brentford probably wouldn't swap Raya for ddg because he's younger and worth more. Does that mean that he's a better goalkeeper at this moment than ddg? Absolutely not.
I would take Alisson, maybe Ederson and maybe Ramsdale ahead of DDG. Beyond that I think he's at the same level or better.
Did you even read my response to your bolded comment? My logic suggested no such thing. Read up as I don't want to have to quote myself.But that was shown to be ridiculous by your refusal to agree that Weghorst is a top four striker, which your logic suggests he is.
And no, no variables whatsoever, I said if money was no object which obviously renders things like re-sale value & age irrelevant. So for arguments sake, imagine all goalkeepers in the top 10, heck even the top 15, were available on free transfers and were the same age; how many clubs would let their current goalkeeper leave to sign De Gea? Surely most of them if he’s a top four goalkeeper?
Please answer with your opinion re Weghorst. Is he top4 quality because he starts games?Look, you're going to owe me a fiver next year, don't be salty.
Re the bolded, the salary is totally irrelevant to the discussion. Do I think we can improve on ddg? Yes. Do I think he's a top four keeper? Also yes. None of that had anything to do with salary. As to the backup question, didn't we loan out Henderson who I presume you'll agree isn't a reserve level backup? And the reason for that was presumably because we trust ddg much more than someone that some were touting as a class PL level keeper? Go figure.
As for the weghorst point, it's already been addressed, read up.
I think Ten Hag would want him gone and a clear new starter to be signed. But if we can't afford one, he is not willing to risk it.Sure, and even most club statements that undermine any player is bad for morale. As you expect us to prolong with him, if I understood you correctly, there would be no reason to undermine him neither.
But do you think Erik Ten Hag has a (or will accept a) soft touch approach towards squad planning?
Yeah I read it, it doesn't hold water as a reasoned response because you're essentially saying De Gea is a top four goalkeeper simply because he plays in a top four team but that the same logic does not apply Weghorst isn't a top four striker despite being a fixture in the same team simply because he's a loanee and we're less reliant on a striker than a goalkeeper.Did you even read my response to your bolded comment? My logic suggested no such thing. Read up as I don't want to have to quote myself.
And regarding your final question, yes, absolutely they would in that situation.
Fine, I'll quote them for you:Please answer with your opinion re Weghorst. Is he top4 quality because he starts games?
Isn't he on loan?
No it's not. The reason we loaned him was because martial has proved utterly incapable of staying fit. There's a reason we haven't bought him. Which is because he's not united quality.
I'm saying that with our first team players fit weghorst wouldn't be a starter, which is why he's a loanee and we were forced into a semi emergency loan move in the first place and also why I wouldn't consider him a top four striker. As for the second bolded bit, I would trade reasonable for ridiculous. You're mad if you'd take Sa or Pickford over ddg, assuming we aren't factoring in age etc. Martinez is arguable, I would take ddg but I could also see how some would argue they're on a par. I would only take Alisson, and possibly ramsdale and ederson myself.Yeah I read it, it doesn't hold water as a reasoned response because you're essentially saying De Gea is a top four goalkeeper simply because he plays in a top four team but that the same logic does not apply Weghorst isn't a top four striker despite being a fixture in the same team simply because he's a loanee and we're less reliant on a striker than a goalkeeper.
Go on then, which of the top 15 clubs in the league are swapping their goalkeeper for De Gea if they had the opportunity in your view? By your previous post not Liverpool, City or Arsenal. I think you are vastly inflating the reputation of De Gea around other clubs, particularly as his various flaws are being highlighted more and more, as an example I speak to a lot of matchgoing Wolves, Everton and Aston Villa fans on a regular basis, are in 13th, 15th & 11th and I and don't know one that would take De Gea over Sa, Pickford or Martinez.
My reasonable estimate would be 3 of the top 15 clubs in the current league would take him over their current number one; Spurs, Fulham, Crystal Palace.
So is Martial a "top four" striker then? His goalscoring record over the past few years would suggest not, and he's our player rather than an emergency loanee (who btw has started every single game since we signed him).I'm saying that with our first team players fit weghorst wouldn't be a starter, which is why he's a loanee and we were forced into a semi emergency loan move in the first place and also why I wouldn't consider him a top four striker. As for the second bolded bit, I would trade reasonable for ridiculous. You're mad if you'd take Sa or Pickford over ddg, assuming we aren't factoring in age etc. Martinez is arguable, I would take ddg but I could also see how some would argue they're on a par. I would only take Alisson, and possibly ramsdale and ederson myself.
So our entire squad are top4 level?
I think that's just an irrational metric. Who in Arsenal's squad did you consider to be a top 4 level, let alone title challenger 8 months ago? Or how many in Tottenham's squad were top 4 level last year? Players' level can fluctuate drastically and the sum of that level is never just a matter of adding up. That's just now how football ever worked.So our entire squad are top4 level?
What’s the risk (in Ten Hag’s eyes)?I think Ten Hag would want him gone and a clear new starter to be signed. But if we can't afford one, he is not willing to risk it.
I personally don't think so but I think you'd find a lot that say that, when not injured, he is. Given what eth has said about him that likely includes eth as well. As for the second bolded bit, you say you're not asking whether I would but whether the club would before going on to speculate what those clubs would do based on your own opinion. Which is similarly speculative. No offense but I think that, given your input into this thread, we're unlikely to agree but will keep rehashing the same discussions which I don't have the energy for.So is Martial a "top four" striker then? His goalscoring record over the past few years would suggest not, and he's our player rather than an emergency loanee (who btw has started every single game since we signed him).
The question was would those clubs would swap their goalkeeper for De Gea, not if you would. And I don't think they would, certainly fans of the three clubs I mentioned wouldn't, but then they probably recognise the benefits of a goalkeeper with the capability of leaving their line occasionally and passing the ball to a player when under pressure rather than a supporter. You're substantially underrating Jose Sa btw, he can be erratic at times but he's a much better goalkeeper than Martinez for example. Pickford I'm no great fan of admittedly but there's zero chance a team managed by Sean Dyche are taking De Gea over Pickford purely for the higher line Pickford enables; which is the same story with Pope at Newcastle, Meslier at Leeds & Kepa at Chelsea. Brighton and Brentford wouldn't touch him because, well, they focus completely on data analytics in recruitment and De Gea flags up horrendously on pretty much any data driven model, plus realistically they ask a lot of their goalkeepers in possession and Raya and Sanchez are streets ahead in terms of pure distribution.
Talking of the defensive line, given that we've now got what should be a considered a reasonable defence for defending high up the pitch; our defensive average line height is the 3rd deepest in the entire division; with only Forest & Bournemouth deeper on average, and literally less than half a yard deeper at that. We've got a goalkeeper that, although vastly improved at sweeping behind his defenders this season, is still the fourth least likely goalkeeper in the league to intercept a ball in behind the defence. There is a clear link there whether people like De Gea or not. And then when you look at how Ten Hag wants us to play, which thus far has us playing more of a possession game than recent seasons when everyone is available, which is backed up by only City, Arsenal Liverpool, Brighton & Chelsea having higher average possession stats than us, the difference is that their average defensive lines are the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th & 7th highest in the league (with Newcastle being just behind us in the possession averages & 5th highest line). For completeness, the outlier in that is Brentford who have the 6th highest average line but lower midtable level average possession, but they have a goalkeeper who both sweeps high and progresses the ball exceptionally well. Possession and high lines go hand in hand, as teams that maintain possession will generally compress the play into higher areas of the pitch and look to play around teams in tighter spaces; we are hamstringing ourselves if we continue to play a such deep line and attempting to be a high possession team as we won't be able to compress the play, there will always be more space between players and passes will therefore be riskier (not to mention the space makes it more difficult to win the ball back quickly). I just don't see how that changes without the goalkeeper changing.
And I'm saying that if Ten Hag had De Gea on Heaton's salary or had a younger modern keeper at his disposal, we wouldn't be having this conversation. I don't know what made you believe I would take Pickford over DDG but I'd definitely take Sanchez, Raya or Kepa.Fine, I'll quote them for you:
Separate reply:
I'm saying that with our first team players fit weghorst wouldn't be a starter, which is why he's a loanee and we were forced into a semi emergency loan move in the first place and also why I wouldn't consider him a top four striker. As for the second bolded bit, I would trade reasonable for ridiculous. You're mad if you'd take Sa or Pickford over ddg, assuming we aren't factoring in age etc. Martinez is arguable, I would take ddg but I could also see how some would argue they're on a par. I would only take Alisson, and possibly ramsdale and ederson myself.
I assume that extends to Weghorst.I would say our starters are showing that yes. Does who dont play is a different case. DDG has won what, 4 or 5 player of the season awards? In seasons we've been top 4 and seasons we dont. And I have to say he has actually Improved too since ETH came in
I didn't come up with the metric. I challenged it.I think that's just an irrational metric. Who in Arsenal's squad did you consider to be a top 4 level, let alone title challenger 8 months ago? Or how many in Tottenham's squad were top 4 level last year? Players' level can fluctuate drastically and the sum of that level is never just a matter of adding up. That's just now how football ever worked.
The risk that he may end up with a disgruntled De Gea who knows we can't afford a good replacement and demands a ridiculous new contract on massive, unwarranted wages. Plus him sulking and stinking up the backroom.What’s the risk (in Ten Hag’s eyes)?
I assume that extends to Weghorst.
Do we have an alternative to De Gea or does he only start because of his world-record wages and lack of competition?Is he a starter? Or is he an emergency player who starts because Martial is out and our main striker got sold because of problems? Nobody is awaiting De Gea's place mate
Apparently he's turned down a contract offer? Wonder what the terms were.
I wonder what we offered that had him turn it down.
Keeper is a pretty important spot to fill too.be curious to hear if it is true turned down the contract offer and curious to what it was. Hopefully the club has identified an option that isnt too expensive that they feel can come in and play how they want. Got a couple important spots to fill and cant afford to spend big bucks on a big name keeper.
