Unfortunately neither us or Forest are owned by people that the authorities care about pissing off.
City and Financial Doping | Charged by PL with numerous FFP breaches | Hearing begins 16th September 2024
- Thread starter VanGaalEra
- Start date
The idea that City fabricate their financial numbers in any way, is more than believable isn't it.
Do Puma?
City have to be the least engaging 'big' club I've ever seen.
They don't need to, read the page, you've been told
It has to be a bit annoying to be so good and yet so easily dismissed by every other football clubs fanbase as a joke. I see City fans on social media just trot out the bitter line and that everyone’s jealous, maybe that sort of thinking makes it feel less weird.
I live in Warsaw, I do see city shirts now and then. I mean they are so rare that they stick out like a sore thumb. I mainly see United,Liverpool, Real, Barca, Bayern, Borussia shirts.
There’s probably quite a lot of mocking if you’re seen wearing a City shirt though, isn’t there?
Ah yes, I've been told that the Sheikh is buying millions of pounds worth of shirts and hiding them under his bed.
You're right, I heard someone stumbled upon his secret stash just yesterday. 1m football shirts.
Thats a far more logical conclusion than Haaland and KDB are shirt sellers.
The best thing about the Sheikh is how he buys them specifically named relative to their standing in global football.
Well if you think so it has to be true.
Honestly not really, lots of banter with friends but if I wear one never a word from anyone I don't know. No idea what its like elsewhere. Unless I'm in the pub for a match etc.. even then its more money jokes than cheating jokes.
Unless you’re new to the shenanigans that go on in entertainment, the notion is not incredulous and you’re wantonly playing it down.
Impression is everything and across the industry buying up a batch of your own product to make it look like you’re more successful than you are is an age old practice. Seats, bots, albums, streams, sales/tickets, merchandise etc. it can be a calculated gamble that sets the intended party on to bigger things than they otherwise would be privy to as the optics can generate chain reactions (hype/buzz) that was not going to be there in the first place.
In City’s case, it’s perfectly obvious why looking like success is being reflected by market share is hugely beneficial. Legitimisation as a giant of the game is enormous for your owner.
I don’t believe I’m saying a single thing here that you don’t already know; people believing you buy up your own supply for the greater good is not some out there concept or even conspiracy.
To be fair, puma just report sales. Theoretically you could have sold 100% of your shirts to yourselves (this goes for any club I guess) but obviously it makes more financial sense if you self sponsor.
For what it’s worth, this is maybe the only metric I actually think is legit for city because there has been a period of continued success and it makes sense many young fans would buy Grealish, Haaland shirts etc. I live in south London and after Chelsea I genuinely see more inter Miami shirts than any other PL team now but there’s always United, City and, unlucky for those who wear them, Pool kits knocking around here.
Of course it is, you're implying a team with 6 PL titles in the last 7 years, a CL, one of the 3 biggest names in football currently up front and probably the most famous manager in the world can't sell shirts based off that success.
It's downright ridiculous. If you had said it 10 years ago you'd have a point, probably true too.
How do you think Chelsea became a far bigger club than Arsenal? But now that Arsenal are back in business that will swing really quickly and even a few good seasons will see them back ahread of both City and Chelsea in 3rd.
You guys refuse to accept both things can be true. City may have cheated to get here but are here nonetheless at least for now. You're seeing the football landscape as it was in 2014 in 2024.
I’ve literally made this post today:
I am talking about opinions at large and why they are not incredulous in the slightest. C.Ronaldo is bigger than City, yet he gets accused of buying bots; major artists/industry players get accused of buying streams (bots) - streaming fraud is an industry in itself. The list goes on and on and it pre-dates City’s rise to prominence by decades.
In City’s case it’s buying shirts for legitimisation, if they are doing that. If the impression stuck, it’d be worth multiple times more than the price of purchase.
To think this is dismissible out the gate would actually be the incredulous bit given what your club is mired in, all in the pursuit of eventual legitimacy.
Ronaldo is absolutely bigger than City, so too is Haaland which is kinda my point. You put Haaland in a United kit and he probably sells 1m shirts alone.
The idea they're buying them is no more crazy than the idea United buy them. City are already here thats the point. It may have been necessary in the past but unlikely given out shit sale growth looks far more organic than our others sources of income. With a nice bump since Erling which makes sense. Its easily dismissible for the now.
If the numbers years ago matched other income streams it would be than too but it doesn't. Why would City start buying them up now when we weren't even that big a seller 5 years ago? City didn't even register on lists (globally) like these till around 18/19 season onwards, we'd sometime be 4th but nowhere near the Chelsea number and have then crept up, a couple of years after Pep and when KDB became our first real superstar.
Not to mention the idea we're in the top 4 in the first place is disputable on a lot of levels as there's various figure putting us anywhere from 6th behind the big 3, Untied, Liverpool, Chelsea plus Arsenal and Spurs to us being 4th. There's literally nothing remotely out of the ordinary with our shirt sales figures for people to make said accusations (one of the few places funny enough that can be said). They don't need to buy shirts for legitimacy, buying trophies and big name players is enough to get youth on board.
I'd also say by most metrics our shirt sales are on a par with PSG a club who are in very similar circumstances globally and followed a very similar trajectory lagging behind a bit cause of their superstars.
Here for example is 2016 https://www.statista.com/statistics/945048/football-jerseys-sales-by-european-club/ and we're not even on the list so half a million at most.
By 2021 (5 years with the current Pep team) https://www.statista.com/statistics/1118294/football-shirt-sales-by-club/
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So just the Spanish players at Barca and Madrid got juiced up? What about the others who share the dressing rooms and train alongside the Spanish players. From memory there were quite a few
How can it be the point when even now, C.Ronaldo is accused of buying bots despite being the biggest name in the entirety of football? Same goes for already established performers in entertainment.
You are saying things that I don’t necessarily disagree with, but for you to seemingly believe there is just no way City could be doing this, it would strike me as incredibly naive. I don’t believe you’re that, so I lean on you wanting to believe in your club and that they are already there, as a giant, and thus have no need to cook anything anymore.
I’ve already put forward my own opinion in the post I brought to your attention. I’m highlighting why people are not outside the realm of probability to think something is afoot, and that it definitely isn’t a preposterous notion as you seem to think.
To answer your question as to why: the appearance of solid organic growth would be the why - some simply don’t buy that it is indeed organic, however.
PSG have an immense collaboration with Nike and Jordan that is driving them as one of the major fashion houses in the world. Their growth is almost purely down to that and not via their standing as a football team or club. People who couldn’t name a single PSG player are buying Jordan-branded items that so happen to also have PSG on them; if Nike and Jordan collaborated with City and produced the same pieces, nobody could question City because the coattails of Jordan could carry any club. That was a masterful coup from PSG.
Huh? Not implying that at all. For what we know, Ronaldo and Messi could’ve been on the same if it’s an overall programme. You probably do it all without the players knowledge and just stay head of tests with testing internally at the club. So many players at once wouldn’t be able to shut their mouth over time. Best believe themselves they’re clean then.
On reflection you're absolutely right. I've still got no doubt that City are up to no good but all of that has been to get them where they are today, which is a club known around the globe.
All gained by cheating.
You really expect us to think that you sell more shirts than Arsenal?
Edit: Changed the last bit as it sounded vitriolic and personal.
There’s no way they bring the case if they didn’t have the intention of pursuing it. If the PL lose this case then FFP/PSR is dead in the water.
If you read the leaks and understand in detail what happened at CAS it’s nigh on impossible to see a way City are acquitted. I think the separate ATP case shows City know they are in for a hiding and are now pivoting to the fairness and validity of the rules rather than trying to argue they didn’t break them.
Now that the location of the trial is public we’ll know in a few weeks whether City are actually putting up a fight or if it’s just a case of damage limitation by the identity of the witnesses they bring. If Pearce, Widdowson, Chumillas aren’t testifying you know they’re doomed!
Honest question, what should that fine be, for football to be ok with it?
It can’t be less than a Billion. Considering the charges, and assuming they’re guilty on all accounts.
It’s a massive number, and probably too small. But it’s only 10 £100m players.
I don't think there is, only an amount that would make it's massively rich owners pull out. But in the very likely event it's a huge fine, where does that money go?
If the money is pumped back into the development of young players in England then at least it's a positive for football in England, a very bitter-sweet positive.
In terms of likelihood I think it will be
1. A big fine
2. Points deductions
3. Relegation to the championship
4. Relegation to league 1/2
5. Removal from the EFL
If they are found guilty there is zero chance it'll just be a fine as they have a bottomless pit of cash available to them so that wont be a punishment and will just show them and clubs like them that they can just forget about the rules and do whatever they want as long as they can afford to pay the fine.
Any punishment they are given if found guilty has to be a tough one that will act as detterent and show that the Premier League are not going to stand for clubs doing the kind of things City are accused of and will take serious action against any that do.
That's what everyone wants but at the same time I doubt it will happen due to who owns City.
Well you’d have to go a galactic sized fine that saw money go into grassroots football.
Then pair it with a 5 year transfer ban that saw them see a period of reset, and competitor appeasement.
Obviously won’t happen. I was just interested in what that might look like.
If the fine was X billion quid and every penny went into grassroots football, you’d arrive at a figure that made their cheating and punishment a net good for football. Which is an odd thing for me to consider.
Every single Sunday League facility in the land being given a lick of paint. New nets, hot water fixed, minibuses and generators and so much more.
Let’s go all in on Sports Washing. Massive signs.
‘Dunlop FC Recreation Ground. Proud recipient of grant funding from the Manchester City criminal reimbursement fund’
The thing is they'll justify it this way. "relegating city would be too severe so why not turn this into a net positive for English football?"
The media will eat it up too
Oh aye. City fans would be CROWING about it.
At that kind of size and scale though, I wouldn’t care. Fcuk em.
If you're going to cook the book, at least do it properly. Make it believable at least. First it was the turnover, now its the shirt sales.
It is so blatant that they have owner money coming in, they write it off as shirt sales or any other commercal injection.
The shirt sponsor would have an idea of how many shirts puma manufactured and sold.
It is so blatant that they have owner money coming in, they write it off as shirt sales or any other commercal injection.
The shirt sponsor would have an idea of how many shirts puma manufactured and sold.
The only reason I doubt there would be any severe punishment is because I imagine a lot of clubs could individually start trying to sue and it would be a mess. So for example a team missing out on Europe could complain saying they lost out on it because City cheated, or a team finishing 18th in a previous season could complain etc. Sheffield United suing West Ham always sticks in my mind
They can't do nothing as it opens the door for all kinds of abuse of the football system but I imagine finding them guilty is a concern for some as it could open a deeper can of worms
They can't do nothing as it opens the door for all kinds of abuse of the football system but I imagine finding them guilty is a concern for some as it could open a deeper can of worms
He’s wrong. City aren’t a big club.
Probably BOGOF.
BOGEF seems more likely.
If we've learnt anything from these charges, City's figures cannot be trusted.
Be interesting to know the geographic spread of where those kits are being sold. City are a paper tiger, everything is superficial with them, including brand loyalty. Their global fanbase was non-existent pre-2010 (at a generous push), so the risk of "losing" City in the league is minimal.
A far bigger risk to the League is the long-term anti-competitive nature of City, through financial doping, which will undermine the EPL product over the coming years.
Why are we going on about shirt sales? That's small potatoes in this case.
City are accused of fraudulently inflating the value of sponsorship deals* and issuing false figures for staff / player salaries**, amongst other things.
* "One of the emails, from City’s then chief financial officer, Jorge Chumillas, headed “Cashflow”, stated that Mansour’s own company vehicle, the Abu Dhabi United Group (ADUG), would be paying £57m as a “contribution to 13/14 sponsorship fee”, while only £8m was Etihad’s “direct contribution”. Then Chumillas sent invoices for Etihad, internally to the City executives Ferran Soriano and Simon Pearce, stating that for 2015-16, the Etihad sponsorship was £67.5m, of which “£8m should be funded directly by Etihad and £59.5 [sic] by ADUG” - source The Guardian Online, referencing the e-mails leaked by Rui Pinto, the 'Portuguese Hacker'.
** 14 of the Premier League's 115 charges relate to "Failure to provide accurate financial reports for player and manager compensation from 2009-10 to 2017-18" source The Times Online, referencing statement from the Premier League.
This is not Everton or Forest, who committed relatively minor breaches of the PSR by exceeding their loss-limits. This is about a deliberate attempt to deceive the Premier League over a prolonged period, an arrogant 'the rules don't apply to us' attitude which makes a mockery of the competition and a failure to comply with requests for information from the Premier League.
The Premier League's case against Everton, which was relatively straightforward, cost £4.9m. I do not think that the Premier League are taking on this mammoth case with the intention of issuing City with a fine. There is a punishment coming, if the Premier League win, and I am sure it will be a significant one, in footballing terms. Bear in-mind, costs incurred by the PL must be paid by the 20 PL clubs...
Oh...and I'm not a 'social media lawyer' which is often the mocking accusation thrown around by knuckleheaded Manchester City fans. I am just someone who can read. The evidence is there for all to see and there's no time-bar or exemption for illegally obtained evidence, which saved them when they appealed their UEFA Champions League ban to the CAS.
City are accused of fraudulently inflating the value of sponsorship deals* and issuing false figures for staff / player salaries**, amongst other things.
* "One of the emails, from City’s then chief financial officer, Jorge Chumillas, headed “Cashflow”, stated that Mansour’s own company vehicle, the Abu Dhabi United Group (ADUG), would be paying £57m as a “contribution to 13/14 sponsorship fee”, while only £8m was Etihad’s “direct contribution”. Then Chumillas sent invoices for Etihad, internally to the City executives Ferran Soriano and Simon Pearce, stating that for 2015-16, the Etihad sponsorship was £67.5m, of which “£8m should be funded directly by Etihad and £59.5 [sic] by ADUG” - source The Guardian Online, referencing the e-mails leaked by Rui Pinto, the 'Portuguese Hacker'.
** 14 of the Premier League's 115 charges relate to "Failure to provide accurate financial reports for player and manager compensation from 2009-10 to 2017-18" source The Times Online, referencing statement from the Premier League.
This is not Everton or Forest, who committed relatively minor breaches of the PSR by exceeding their loss-limits. This is about a deliberate attempt to deceive the Premier League over a prolonged period, an arrogant 'the rules don't apply to us' attitude which makes a mockery of the competition and a failure to comply with requests for information from the Premier League.
The Premier League's case against Everton, which was relatively straightforward, cost £4.9m. I do not think that the Premier League are taking on this mammoth case with the intention of issuing City with a fine. There is a punishment coming, if the Premier League win, and I am sure it will be a significant one, in footballing terms. Bear in-mind, costs incurred by the PL must be paid by the 20 PL clubs...
Oh...and I'm not a 'social media lawyer' which is often the mocking accusation thrown around by knuckleheaded Manchester City fans. I am just someone who can read. The evidence is there for all to see and there's no time-bar or exemption for illegally obtained evidence, which saved them when they appealed their UEFA Champions League ban to the CAS.
Acquittal seems impossible, I agree. But that doesn’t mean sentencing will be anywhere near what it ought to be.
I reckon City will get a punishment that’s more than a slap on the wrist, I’m just leaving room for doubt because of how the world tends to work. I hope that small percentage of doubt is utterly wrong.
I’m normally in Singapore twice a year and I’m always struck by how many Everton shirts I see. Obviously United, Liverpool and Arsenal are the most - but then I’d say Everton and Chelsea are fighting for 4th most popular.
I saw one City shirt in 3 weeks the last time I was there, on a teenage girl. The thing about City shirts is they’re so rare that you remember every time you see one.