City and Financial Doping | Charged by PL with numerous FFP breaches | Hearing begins 16th September 2024

TrustInJanuzaj said:
I think one of the points people are missing is that if they are charged and proven to have cheated, the reputational damage alone will be monumental. I could see an exodus of players regardless of punishment because who wants their legacy to be associated with a cheating team.
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I feel the same. A relegation would do irreparable damage, in my opinion. Particularly as they shouldn’t be able to cheat again to recover.
 
steeeb said:
The thing is, the "actual owner" likely had nothing to do with it.

Reading the e-mails it appears to be the directors and the people acting as liasons between the groups that appear to be doing it - of course, using the ownerships other companies and connections to do it though of course.

If projects like this exist purely for sportswashing and making the country look better, I'm not entirely sure how cheating benefits them - surely it does the opposite?

If found guilty could the owners just pull the plug and walk away anyway and just do it again somewhere else and not get caught or go about it differently?
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The actual owner is the one supplying the money. Of course they had something to do with it. It isn't about making their country look better, its about their country being recognisable to the general public.
I'd give the owners and executives a life time ban from the sport so they cant pick up elsewhere personally. They could walk away but the club is worth hundreds of millions so that doesn't seem likely.
 
There's zero doubt the primary owner knew about the inflating of sponsorships through firms his family own, his handlers and himself probably helped craft the process and all.
 
I genuinely believe we will see some teams seriously fecked this season and City will be among them with the most harsh punishment. Long overdue
 
If they're found guilty, they can't simply be given a money fine. It would be globally mocked, disputed and condemned. Giving City of all teams a money fine is utterly pointless obviously.
 
I wonder will it affect the motivation of the players. I just hope the decision and punishment is known during the season, it can't drag on any longer
 
If they are found guilty, what punishment would people prefer…That they are stripped of all the titles won during that period but stay in the league or that they’re docked so many points they will effectively be relegated but they keep the previous titles?

Obviously in an ideal would it would be both but if you could only pick one option what would you go with?
 
Top_Bins said:
What is the possibility of a class action lawsuit being brought by any club that feels their cheating has impacted their earnings since 2008?

Surely if they are found guilty then there is a real case for one.
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None it would be an in house PL matter through their defined process akin to the WHU claims a few year’s ago
 
Malone_Post said:
If they are found guilty, what punishment would people prefer…That they are stripped of all the titles won during that period but stay in the league or that they’re docked so many points they will effectively be relegated but they keep the previous titles?

Obviously in an ideal would it would be both but if you could only pick one option what would you go with?
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Theres a scale I think that should apply here:

  • Accidentally breaking rules = Fine and small points deduction, getting bigger for repeat offences
  • Deliberately breaking rules in one season & admitting it = relegation
  • Deliberately breaking rules over multiple seasons, conspiring with others to hide it, blocking investigations and lawyering up to delay and obfuscate = There can be no other suitable punishment than permanent EPL expulsion under the current, or any associated, ownership.
I'm actually more annoyed by the behaviour of trying to hide it and block investigation than I am about the actual financial shenanigans, and it's this bit that needs to be completely hammered. The sheer lack of respect toward the league, it's members and the wider sport cannot be acceptable and cannot be presumed to not be done again at the first opportunity. It's harsh for [some of] the supporters, the players and staff - even though they would have to be in complete ostrich mode to not see it - but it has to be this way. An example has to be set. If the EFL chooses to take them or not is up to them, but the EPL should simply permanently bar them until the ownership is changed.

What happens then with regards to the titles and trophies it's hard to really say. For me there just needs to be no winner in each of the affected seasons with a massive asterisk and note about why. The club will be permanently tainted by it, but thats what you get for so willingly turning a blind eye to what has been rather obvious.

All assuming guilty, of course, but there's enough smoke I think.
 
The Purley King said:
All this talk about points deductions I don’t think is enough.
They should be expelled from the PL for a number of years. They don’t start each PL season on -50 points they just don’t get to play in it full stop.
Likewise a “relegation” isn’t enough as they just move down to the championship. Has to be expulsion, with conditions around club ownership attached to them ever being allowed back regardless of where they finish in the championship (if they ever get back up there).
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Don't know if the PL have the powers to expel them for x amount of years. They can dock them enough points to guarantee relegation of course. If they did expel them how would that work for the football pyramid? Would they go to the championship or down to non league and have to work their way back up? I've no idea.

But as much as they deserve very harsh punishment you have to remember it's their owners that have broken the rules. Yes City as a club need punished but their owners more so. Personally a season in the Championship and then subsequent point deductions for their next 3 PL seasons when they return to ensure they can't win the title or qualify for the CL is probably the harshest punishment we can hope for.
 
OldSchoolManc said:
City owners obviously don’t like rules, so yeah they would try other ways and cover ups. They should be forced into selling as part of the punishment.

They are like the kid who cheats at monopoly by making up their own rules and threatening all the other players who try to stop them.

Also, after reading another article, it seems that their main defence is that the emails were obtained illegally. So it’s not that they are guilty and it’s there in black and white, it’s their argument that the evidence is inadmissible.
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100% them and owners like them are a cancer on football. They've no interest in the sport or football fans. It's all just part of some selfish sportwashing enterprise. Mobs like that should have never been allowed into footbal in the first place.
 
Malone_Post said:
If they are found guilty, what punishment would people prefer…That they are stripped of all the titles won during that period but stay in the league or that they’re docked so many points they will effectively be relegated but they keep the previous titles?

Obviously in an ideal would it would be both but if you could only pick one option what would you go with?
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The latter, once it's official their previous title wins will be meaningless anyway. Well they pretty much already are, no one gives a shit about them.
 
stevoc said:
Don't know if the PL have the powers to expel them for x amount of years. They can dock them enough points to guarantee relegation of course. If they did expel them how would that work for the football pyramid? Would they go to the championship or down to non league and have to work their way back up? I've no idea.

But as much as they deserve very harsh punishment you have to remember it's their owners that have broken the rules. Yes City as a club need punished but their owners more so. Personally a season in the Championship and then subsequent point deductions for their next 3 PL seasons when they return to ensure they can't win the title or qualify for the CL is probably the harshest punishment we can hope for.
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I’d hope PL has powers to say “because you cheated for 15 years you aren’t coming back for 5”.
Then it’s up to the football league whether to accept them or not.
 
Think they’ll get a massive points deduction that will see them relegated

Generally think they’re fecked and they know it hence no real movement in the market this summer
 
Funny how a few years ago you couldnt post in here about citys obvious cheating without a barrage of city fans crying sour grapes and acting as if it was all just a bitter conspiracy theory. Here we are a couple of weeks before probably the biggest and most consequential cheating trial in the history of english football and they seem to be gone quiet. Funny that.
 
Castia said:
Think they’ll get a massive points deduction that will see them relegated

Generally think they’re fecked and they know it hence no real movement in the market this summer
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Agents are surely advising players against moving to City this summer and to wait until after the results of the trial.
 
If they get found guilty, then I believe that all the titles won after the FFP regulations came in should be stripped. The Premier League can only remove the league titles but I can't see The FA, EFL, UEFA, FIFA removing the titles City 'won' in their respective competitions, so they'll remain but with a massive asterix next to them.

I don't think any titles should be given to the teams that ended second, I wouldn't want to win a league title like that, but City are going to find themselves in all sorts of bother with other clubs who have either missed out on Europe due to their alleged cheating or been relegated due to it.

I just hope that the outcome is fair to everyone. Everton and Forest have been hit with relatively big points deductions following a single breach of PSR. If City are found guilty, then they should face a huge punishment.
 
devilsadvoca8 said:
People keep bringing up Everton and Forest but both those clubs were punished for recent breaches. City's charges are over a longer period so the punishment won't be in the same ball park as those two clubs. It's going to be way way sterner and has to be strong enough to show you can't do that and get away with it. A mere points deduction isn't enough, that would mean you can cheat over multiple years, win titles and suffer just maybe one season. Makes no sense not to void the titles their cheating bought and relegate them. It's the only deterrent.
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Point deduction is fine as long as it’s 10 points by offense. So 1150 points. You spread that by the point total they can win every year. So they’ll go at the bottom of the English football in 5 years and stay there 5/8 years. Then they can climb back.
 
SER19 said:
Funny how a few years ago you couldnt post in here about citys obvious cheating without a barrage of city fans crying sour grapes and acting as if it was all just a bitter conspiracy theory. Here we are a couple of weeks before probably the biggest and most consequential cheating trial in the history of english football and they seem to be gone quiet. Funny that.
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They have no plausible deniability right now. The second the club hands them some straws to clutch on, they’ll be back. If they weasel their way out of it, this place will be flush with them.
 
I suspect if there is significant punishment Abu Dhabi will withdraw it's investments from the UK completely, to teach us a lesson. I don't know much about their investments but I suppose it would result in job losses and reduced taxes one way or another but so be it, can't be blackmailed.
 
The EPL and British government are two separate entities.
I don’t understand how people think the government can just step in without coming across as a fascist state.
 
711 said:
I suspect if there is significant punishment Abu Dhabi will withdraw it's investments from the UK completely, to teach us a lesson. I don't know much about their investments but I suppose it would result in job losses and reduced taxes one way or another but so be it, can't be blackmailed.
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Do you not think that Abu Dhabi benefit from their investments in the UK?

Why should they pull all their investments, to what benefit?

They make nothing out of City in the UK, their genuine, bona fides investments do. In fact, if they are trying to promote the image of Abu Dhabi in the UK and around the World, cheating at football is not the way to do it.

It would be like cutting off their nose to spite their face.
 
Are they guilty? Yes they are.

Will they be found guilty? That is a whole different matter.
 
Malone_Post said:
If they are found guilty, what punishment would people prefer…That they are stripped of all the titles won during that period but stay in the league or that they’re docked so many points they will effectively be relegated but they keep the previous titles?

Obviously in an ideal would it would be both but if you could only pick one option what would you go with?
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The titles being stripped won’t happen because it wouldn’t work. Mass points being docked and the owners having to sell would be the best outcomes. Look how quick Roman had to sell Chelsea. These guys can’t continue to own this club if they’ve cheated their way to the top. States shouldn’t be allowed to own football clubs.
 
OldSchoolManc said:
The EPL and British government are two separate entities.
I don’t understand how people think the government can just step in without coming across as a fascist state.
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The government intervened when Chelsea needed to be taken out of the hands of a Russian ganster with links to a despot.

In a situation like this it highlights why a foreign state should have never been allowed to purchase an English football club in the first place. The PL really need to remove City's owners from English football and that can only realistically be done with help from the government. If an English institution asks the government for help dealing with a foreign power then I don't see how they can not get involved.
 
Does anyone know if the networks aren't allowed to mention these things during broadcast? Mine just spent a good minute on big Todd's crazy spending, the value of the Chelsea squad and didn't think to mention a word on the value of City. Or were this bright young winger Savio came from. Or the fact the Champions are at risk of not being the Champions anymore.

It's kinda weird.
 
stevoc said:
The government intervened when Chelsea needed to be taken out of the hands of a Russian ganster with links to a despot.

In a situation like this it highlights why a foreign state should have never been allowed to purchase an English football club in the first place. The PL really need to remove City's owners from English football and that can only realistically be done with help from the government. If an English institution asks the government for help dealing with a foreign power then I don't see how they can not get involved.
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They also got involved when the Saudis were trying to buy Newcastle.
 
Beachryan said:
Does anyone know if the networks aren't allowed to mention these things during broadcast? Mine just spent a good minute on big Todd's crazy spending, the value of the Chelsea squad and didn't think to mention a word on the value of City. Or were this bright young winger Savio came from. Or the fact the Champions are at risk of not being the Champions anymore.

It's kinda weird.
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I'd imagine it's a top-down directive from the Premier League. They want us to ignore it as much as they'd like to ignore it themselves.
 
Beachryan said:
Does anyone know if the networks aren't allowed to mention these things during broadcast? Mine just spent a good minute on big Todd's crazy spending, the value of the Chelsea squad and didn't think to mention a word on the value of City. Or were this bright young winger Savio came from. Or the fact the Champions are at risk of not being the Champions anymore.

It's kinda weird.
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Why wouldn't they be allowed to talk about it? Of course they are. Some will simply have been threatened with legal action (which works, even if City aren't in the right, as it must be nightmarish to deal with their legal team) and others have been bribed, I would assume. That's enough to get a professional group to mostly shut up. Especially if that group is as spineless and traditionally corruptible as sports journalists and pundits.
 
Sassy Colin said:
Do you not think that Abu Dhabi benefit from their investments in the UK?

Why should they pull all their investments, to what benefit?

They make nothing out of City in the UK, their genuine, bona fides investments do. In fact, if they are trying to promote the image of Abu Dhabi in the UK and around the World, cheating at football is not the way to do it.

It would be like cutting off their nose to spite their face.
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I agree with your logic but I don't think you are taking pride and arrogance into account. They're not too bothered about the money, the rulers have shedloads, they wouldn't suffer personally in the slightest.
 
Top_Bins said:
What is the possibility of a class action lawsuit being brought by any club that feels their cheating has impacted their earnings since 2008?

Surely if they are found guilty then there is a real case for one.
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Their guilt is an inevitability at this stage. City have invested huge resources into delay tactics rather than fighting the claims. The timeline was posted earlier in this thread but essentially the hearing could have been completed over 3 years ago.

Kicking the can down the road isn't the action of an entity believing they can defend their actions. Let's not forget this is a civil matter too. The EPL need to prove City probably broke their rules. They have to prove it is more likely, than not, the allegations occured.

Once proven, I suspect City are in for a decade of legal issues. There are the criminal issues. False accounting (Section 17 Theft Act 1968) seems nailed on for the high level executives. Concealing criminal property (Section 327 POCA 2000) which is effectively money laundering. Then you have the fact this is effectively a complex fraud (resists making a Fraudiola reference). City have repeatedly made false representations from which they gained, and others were exposed to a risk of loss (Section 2 Fraud Act 2006). The most appropriate primacy for the investigation is likely the National Crime Agency (NCA) and Serious Fraud Office (SFO). That'll take a few years to unpick I suspect, a few convictions coming out of that. Custody threshold definitely passed when considering the societal importance of sport and the reputational damage to one of our biggest global exports.

Then all the civil stuff will begin. Every time City have finished ahead of another team, they've cost each team ~£1m in finishing position prize money. Years they've won, that's £19m. Second, £18m, etc. 15 years of it going to be around £200m. Then you have teams being relegated because City were cheating to stay in the league. Then the teams losing out on Champions League, Europa League and Conference League football because of a cheating team finishing ahead. The sponsorship implications of those losses. City have probably cost other teams around £750-1bn in lost revenues, just on those factors alone.

In short, I'd expect a couple of decent prison sentences for the coordinators of the conspiracy to defraud and financial ruin for City but likely playing out until 2035.
 
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