Trouble is, the precedent for points deduction has already been set with Forest and Everton. I'm too lazy to look but i'm pretty sure Everton at least would have finished quite a few places higher last season, which in turn would have meant more money (not a lot but some) for new players etc. It just becomes an absolute mess if a points deduction isn't used.
City and Financial Doping | Charged by PL with numerous FFP breaches | Hearing begins 16th September 2024
- Thread starter VanGaalEra
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Hope so. The club has already said that whatever fine they are forced to pay they will pay in one penny pieces delivered in sweet jars, taking the PL 5 years to count.
The likes of Talkshite, Sky, 5Live will still be blowing smoke up their arses about the 4 PL s in a row though.
Only this afternoon, Talkshite were saying that City are the team to beat without any mention, or caveat, about their cheating.
The hearing will start in 2024 but no one will be listening. feck all will happen from this. If it did, it would have happened a while ago.
What about for all those years they stopped reporting to the PL? Are those going to be overlooked for these offences/breaches?
The entire club is a breach of integrity of the Football Leagues, the FA, UEFA and yet they were welcomed with open arms, I don’t see why it will change suddenly.
What about for all those years they stopped reporting to the PL? Are those going to be overlooked for these offences/breaches?
The entire club is a breach of integrity of the Football Leagues, the FA, UEFA and yet they were welcomed with open arms, I don’t see why it will change suddenly.
200M/19 (or 23 for the previous PL teams) is about 10M each. That's absolutely nothing, why would the majority agree to that ?
It did annoy me last night when they said ‘even United couldn’t do 4 in a row’. They haven’t been found guilty yet though, it’s probably for legal reasons that they’re all shit scared of even referencing the 115 charges.
If they’re found guilty, I think the media will have no excuse but to reflect fan sentiment.
What is the possibility of a class action lawsuit being brought by any club that feels their cheating has impacted their earnings since 2008?
Surely if they are found guilty then there is a real case for one.
Surely if they are found guilty then there is a real case for one.
For me, I’d be happy with all titles stripped and 100 point deduction this year.
Guarantees relegation, means this season and next season at the very least are write offs
I’m also not sure how it works but they’d have to comply with championship ffp, which means wages would have to fall a lot surely, which means players would have to be sold.
On top of that, clubs could easily play hard ball with them.
As for loaning them all out, when does that max of 10 loans per club come into affect.
I think being in the championship would be a bigger hinderance than some people think
Guarantees relegation, means this season and next season at the very least are write offs
I’m also not sure how it works but they’d have to comply with championship ffp, which means wages would have to fall a lot surely, which means players would have to be sold.
On top of that, clubs could easily play hard ball with them.
As for loaning them all out, when does that max of 10 loans per club come into affect.
I think being in the championship would be a bigger hinderance than some people think
That's such nonsensical logic.
The league could have either not bothered to bring charges at all, or literally just scrapped the enquiry early and washed it away.
But we've done this to death.
All posts saying "nothing will happen" simply just clog the pages up and make people think there's a proper update.
I truly appreciate your optimism, and I do wish to be proven wrong.
Although I do understand what you mean.
However, I must clarify. Points deduction, transfer ban etc all equates to “nothing being done” for me. The only acceptable punishment is being thrown out of the league entirely. Or suspended for quite a few years until the ownership get bored of their little play thing.
You have to attack the root cause otherwise it’s a mere slap on the wrist and sets terrible precedents moving forward.
That's a fair response, although a huge points deduction would be quite unprecedented. I remember Luton copped 30 points once for financial shenanigans but they'd barely skimmed the surface compared to what City have been accused of! Easier to smash a then lower league minnow though, think they were either L1 or L2 at the time.
But any punishment "if" they're found guilty of a high percentage of those offences should not be something they can get over in 1 season.
Even relegation to the championship would mean they'd have a hell of a mission to keep in line with financial fair play with their wages.
The fantasy scenario is they get multiple relegations, titles after the cheat period scrapped and their owners kicked out of ownership. But that latter point would be next level impossibility to enforce unless they can engineer some sort of government level / Abramovich scenario.
What is in the favour of a proper serious punishment is the other 19 premier league clubs. No club has said anything publicly, as they're clearly waiting to see how this pans out. The fury of other clubs could open another can of absolute beast levels of lawsuits.
Those trophies won since 2009 need a big asterisk on them
You make very good points and I hope the punishment is severe at the fantasy scenario you laid out. I suppose the whole ordeal has left me cold and lacking any faith in the backbone of English football hence my skepticism.
If they do get off easy, I wonder if clubs will react with lawsuits or if they will adopt similar methods to City to gain an advantage - especially if they can “afford” the risk. But I guess that’s the can of worms that will be opened if a large punishment isn’t handed out.
Anyways, don’t want to be clogging up the thread. We’ll see how it starts to play out next month if there aren’t any delays in proceedings. Can only hope for the best (worst for City) from here on in.
Are the potential sanctions set in writing somewhere in guidelines or is it up to the league to come up with something within whatever is in their power ? Can they order relegation to lower leagues directly or is it only through the indirect effect of point deductions ? Can point deductions be applied for several seasons or just the current or next one ? Transfer ban ?
If we assume City may be found guilty of unprecedented cheating, you'd think the punishment would have to be too. I think forcing them down to the Championship or League One would probably hurt them more financially and in their greater project of creating better public image for their owners through sport success. Would perhaps force a soft reset of the team and to build back from scratch. Making them struggle a bit 3-5 years seems fair, perhaps too light still.
If we assume City may be found guilty of unprecedented cheating, you'd think the punishment would have to be too. I think forcing them down to the Championship or League One would probably hurt them more financially and in their greater project of creating better public image for their owners through sport success. Would perhaps force a soft reset of the team and to build back from scratch. Making them struggle a bit 3-5 years seems fair, perhaps too light still.
I sincerely hope that their punishment reflects their crime! One season in the Championship surely isn't enough considering the amount of years their cheating has spanned!
I also worry that if they do somehow get let off lightly then the likes of Newcastle will be given a green light to follow suit! I feel like Newcastle's owners are just lurking in the shadow's awaiting the outcome of this as well. (I have zero evidence of this, it's just my own opinion/fear).
I also worry that if they do somehow get let off lightly then the likes of Newcastle will be given a green light to follow suit! I feel like Newcastle's owners are just lurking in the shadow's awaiting the outcome of this as well. (I have zero evidence of this, it's just my own opinion/fear).
The punishment if they are found guilty is decided by the independant panel using their own guidlines and not by the Premier League which is why the claims the Premier League will let them off with a small fine dont hold water.
If they get expelled from the Premier League they have to apply to join the EFL and if accepted (which isnt guarenteed) EFL rules state they must start from League Two.
They don’t have a choice but to properly deal with this. It’s the sporting integrity of the entire league. They have billions in their brand, they can’t have it being a hollow shell.
Ah thanks for the clarification. They could be sent back to the bottom of the pro pile, supposedly, then. Which I think is the most appropriate if the panel estimates there was grievous cheating. At least 3 years of climbing up the ladder, dismantling the current squad and a tighter control through PSR for future financial abuse once they rejoin the PL.
Everton and I think Forest too have come out saying that they are very closely monitoring the Citeh case seeing as they've faced points deductions themselves.
I have read somewhere as well that multiple PL clubs have written letters to the Premier League complaining about City.
I'm worried that it might end up with a heavy point deduction but not enough to get them relegated. They can survive potentially up to 50 points deduction, and one year without european football won't hurt them much.
They'd probably be fine long term even with relegation, but it's the only punishment that sends a strong message, anything else would be a joke.
They'd probably be fine long term even with relegation, but it's the only punishment that sends a strong message, anything else would be a joke.
The mad thing is, most fans have already tainted the legitimacy of their titles because of the FFP charges without the court case result.
Klopps last game was the news that got the headlines over 4 titles in a row.
It’s blatantly obvious sketchy business was happening at City.
Klopps last game was the news that got the headlines over 4 titles in a row.
It’s blatantly obvious sketchy business was happening at City.
Those wondering if any other clubs will bring lawsuites against them if found guilty.
Are you forgetting that Liverpool have been the victim for quite a few of these years? Were never going to hear the end of how hard done by they have been! I can guarantee they'll be first in line for some compo.
Are you forgetting that Liverpool have been the victim for quite a few of these years? Were never going to hear the end of how hard done by they have been! I can guarantee they'll be first in line for some compo.
I am convinced they will be found guilty - but I am not sure the punishment will be as hard as City deserve. I just can't believe that the P.L will go to court with 115 charges without being able to prove at least some of them. The biggest and best argument I can give (but probably also the only argument) why I hope City will get a fairly tough punishment if found guilty - is the fear of the backlash from the other clubs and their fans if City escape the worst.
As I have said before is that the punishment must cripple City for several years. Points punishment for several years, no European football for x amount of years regardless of how they perform and most importantly - that there is an asterisk behind every trophy they have won so everyone will know 30 years for now - they won by cheating
As I have said before is that the punishment must cripple City for several years. Points punishment for several years, no European football for x amount of years regardless of how they perform and most importantly - that there is an asterisk behind every trophy they have won so everyone will know 30 years for now - they won by cheating
Ok! Thanks. Sounds a little promising.
People keep bringing up Everton and Forest but both those clubs were punished for recent breaches. City's charges are over a longer period so the punishment won't be in the same ball park as those two clubs. It's going to be way way sterner and has to be strong enough to show you can't do that and get away with it. A mere points deduction isn't enough, that would mean you can cheat over multiple years, win titles and suffer just maybe one season. Makes no sense not to void the titles their cheating bought and relegate them. It's the only deterrent.
I would assume that each of City's 115 charges are more or less at the same level as what Everton and Forest were found guilty of - at least. But points deduction is fine with me - if it's big enough and for a number of seasons.
It’s not like even City brings any eyes to the product. They can eliminate them and no one would even know.
It's interesting that on my travels these days, plenty of foreign countries seem to have a growing support for Manchester City so I don't think that's strictly true. Maybe given more time they'd gain an even larger footing. I'm not suggesting that's going to factor into the hearing (really, Manchester City should have complied from the beginning and they'd have a slapped wrist) but knowing how corrupt and money driven our league is that may end up a factor. OTOH their seeming impunity is not a good look to the rest of the clubs in the league.
My feelings are that Chelsea are an even worse example of a club being run as laundry than City, so for them to escape while city are punished would feel partly unjust to me, but obviously the rules are the rules and I guess Jose and Roman clearly tried to comply with the rules for a few years, it's only Boehly and friends (who shouldn't remain nameless but it's harder to remember their names) who have started to get a bit silly
If they’re guilty even a points deduction doesn’t do it for me. They still get to make that up with their star assembled team which was put together unlawfully
It would need to be either relegation so they’re forced to sell some of them anyway. Or given an FFP bracket which would force them to sell most of their team.
It would need to be either relegation so they’re forced to sell some of them anyway. Or given an FFP bracket which would force them to sell most of their team.
If Saracens were demoted to 2nd division, stripped of the title, 35 points deducted for wage cap breaches..
By around 1m, and apparently was found to be not deliberate.
Then using that as an equivalent, doing a similar breach over such a long period surely the punishment should be several times worse than that? Since it's a longer period, larger sums, deliberate, none compliance and covering it up etc.
By around 1m, and apparently was found to be not deliberate.
Then using that as an equivalent, doing a similar breach over such a long period surely the punishment should be several times worse than that? Since it's a longer period, larger sums, deliberate, none compliance and covering it up etc.
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For all the talk of points deductions, titles stripped and fines. The most appropriate punishment has to involve Abu Dhabi no longer owning Man City or before long they'll find another way to cheat again.
Massive fine, points deductions over 4 PL seasons (80, 50, 30, 15), and the current owners having to sell up. Which would probably need government involvement to achieve.
Stripping titles wouldn't hurt either but I doubt that will happen.
Massive fine, points deductions over 4 PL seasons (80, 50, 30, 15), and the current owners having to sell up. Which would probably need government involvement to achieve.
Stripping titles wouldn't hurt either but I doubt that will happen.
All this talk about points deductions I don’t think is enough.
They should be expelled from the PL for a number of years. They don’t start each PL season on -50 points they just don’t get to play in it full stop.
Likewise a “relegation” isn’t enough as they just move down to the championship. Has to be expulsion, with conditions around club ownership attached to them ever being allowed back regardless of where they finish in the championship (if they ever get back up there).
City owners obviously don’t like rules, so yeah they would try other ways and cover ups. They should be forced into selling as part of the punishment.
They are like the kid who cheats at monopoly by making up their own rules and threatening all the other players who try to stop them.
Also, after reading another article, it seems that their main defence is that the emails were obtained illegally. So it’s not that they are guilty and it’s there in black and white, it’s their argument that the evidence is inadmissible.
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I think one of the points people are missing is that if they are charged and proven to have cheated, the reputational damage alone will be monumental. I could see an exodus of players regardless of punishment because who wants their legacy to be associated with a cheating team.
They supplied some of them themselves to UEFA and I believe these ones could be used anyway?
(Not sure if obtained illegally matters or not or whether they'll have to supply them if asked etc)
The thing is, the "actual owner" likely had nothing to do with it.
Reading the e-mails it appears to be the directors and the people acting as liasons between the groups that appear to be doing it - of course, using the ownerships other companies and connections to do it though of course.
If projects like this exist purely for sportswashing and making the country look better, I'm not entirely sure how cheating benefits them - surely it does the opposite?
If found guilty could the owners just pull the plug and walk away anyway and just do it again somewhere else and not get caught or go about it differently?
I'd feel a bit more confident about this if Pep had left before this season, I just can't see why he'd put himself in the firing line if they are about to be found guilty.
Obviously he could still go before the verdit, but would look weird for him to go mid season.
Obviously he could still go before the verdit, but would look weird for him to go mid season.
I still think a deal will be agreed behind the scenes. One which looks like the PL have acted strongly but that Abu Dhabi are happy with.
Something like a £500m fine - which whilst a lot of money - isn't that considerable to AD in the grand scheme of things. The PL looks strong and City get away relatively scot free. The may even throw in a points deduction of 6-20 points which will be reduced on appeal.
There's just no way I can see them being relegated or stripped of the titles. The UK government won't want to upset their UAE counterparts - it was admitted that the City hearing has been discussed at government level and the FOI request wasn't disclosed because it contained 'sensitive information' so who knows what is happening behind the scenes.
Something like a £500m fine - which whilst a lot of money - isn't that considerable to AD in the grand scheme of things. The PL looks strong and City get away relatively scot free. The may even throw in a points deduction of 6-20 points which will be reduced on appeal.
There's just no way I can see them being relegated or stripped of the titles. The UK government won't want to upset their UAE counterparts - it was admitted that the City hearing has been discussed at government level and the FOI request wasn't disclosed because it contained 'sensitive information' so who knows what is happening behind the scenes.
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Yeah, I don't think football players earing a tonne of cash will give a flying feck.
A monetary fine will be hugely criticised and viewed as nothing but the FA getting their cut of the spoils.