City and Financial Doping | Charged by PL with numerous FFP breaches | Hearing begins 16th September 2024

I sincerely hope that their punishment reflects their crime! One season in the Championship surely isn't enough considering the amount of years their cheating has spanned!
I also worry that if they do somehow get let off lightly then the likes of Newcastle will be given a green light to follow suit! I feel like Newcastle's owners are just lurking in the shadow's awaiting the outcome of this as well. (I have zero evidence of this, it's just my own opinion/fear).
 
Plastic Evra said:
Are the potential sanctions set in writing somewhere in guidelines or is it up to the league to come up with something within whatever is in their power ? Can they order relegation to lower leagues directly or is it only through the indirect effect of point deductions ? Can point deductions be applied for several seasons or just the current or next one ? Transfer ban ?

If we assume City may be found guilty of unprecedented cheating, you'd think the punishment would have to be too. I think forcing them down to the Championship or League One would probably hurt them more financially and in their greater project of creating better public image for their owners through sport success. Would perhaps force a soft reset of the team and to build back from scratch. Making them struggle a bit 3-5 years seems fair, perhaps too light still.
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The punishment if they are found guilty is decided by the independant panel using their own guidlines and not by the Premier League which is why the claims the Premier League will let them off with a small fine dont hold water.

If they get expelled from the Premier League they have to apply to join the EFL and if accepted (which isnt guarenteed) EFL rules state they must start from League Two.
 
They don’t have a choice but to properly deal with this. It’s the sporting integrity of the entire league. They have billions in their brand, they can’t have it being a hollow shell.
 
RedRocket9908 said:
The punishment if they are found guilty is decided by the independant panel using their own guidlines and not by the Premier League which is why the claims the Premier League will let them off with a small fine dont hold water.

If they get expelled from the Premier League they have to apply to join the EFL and if accepted (which isnt guarenteed) EFL rules state they must start from League Two.
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Ah thanks for the clarification. They could be sent back to the bottom of the pro pile, supposedly, then. Which I think is the most appropriate if the panel estimates there was grievous cheating. At least 3 years of climbing up the ladder, dismantling the current squad and a tighter control through PSR for future financial abuse once they rejoin the PL.
 
Devil77 said:
One hope so. But shouldn’t there have been any noise from these clubs by now? It seems that all PL clubs are just quietly accepting City’s antics.
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Everton and I think Forest too have come out saying that they are very closely monitoring the Citeh case seeing as they've faced points deductions themselves.

I have read somewhere as well that multiple PL clubs have written letters to the Premier League complaining about City.
 
I'm worried that it might end up with a heavy point deduction but not enough to get them relegated. They can survive potentially up to 50 points deduction, and one year without european football won't hurt them much.

They'd probably be fine long term even with relegation, but it's the only punishment that sends a strong message, anything else would be a joke.
 
The mad thing is, most fans have already tainted the legitimacy of their titles because of the FFP charges without the court case result.

Klopps last game was the news that got the headlines over 4 titles in a row.

It’s blatantly obvious sketchy business was happening at City.
 
Those wondering if any other clubs will bring lawsuites against them if found guilty.

Are you forgetting that Liverpool have been the victim for quite a few of these years? Were never going to hear the end of how hard done by they have been! I can guarantee they'll be first in line for some compo.
 
I am convinced they will be found guilty - but I am not sure the punishment will be as hard as City deserve. I just can't believe that the P.L will go to court with 115 charges without being able to prove at least some of them. The biggest and best argument I can give (but probably also the only argument) why I hope City will get a fairly tough punishment if found guilty - is the fear of the backlash from the other clubs and their fans if City escape the worst.

As I have said before is that the punishment must cripple City for several years. Points punishment for several years, no European football for x amount of years regardless of how they perform and most importantly - that there is an asterisk behind every trophy they have won so everyone will know 30 years for now - they won by cheating
 
DarkLord1984 said:
Everton and I think Forest too have come out saying that they are very closely monitoring the Citeh case seeing as they've faced points deductions themselves.

I have read somewhere as well that multiple PL clubs have written letters to the Premier League complaining about City.
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Ok! Thanks. Sounds a little promising.
 
People keep bringing up Everton and Forest but both those clubs were punished for recent breaches. City's charges are over a longer period so the punishment won't be in the same ball park as those two clubs. It's going to be way way sterner and has to be strong enough to show you can't do that and get away with it. A mere points deduction isn't enough, that would mean you can cheat over multiple years, win titles and suffer just maybe one season. Makes no sense not to void the titles their cheating bought and relegate them. It's the only deterrent.
 
devilsadvoca8 said:
People keep bringing up Everton and Forest but both those clubs were punished for recent breaches. City's charges are over a longer period so the punishment won't be in the same ball park as those two clubs. It's going to be way way sterner and has to be strong enough to show you can't do that and get away with it. A mere points deduction isn't enough, that would mean you can cheat over multiple years, win titles and suffer just maybe one season. Makes no sense not to void the titles their cheating bought and relegate them. It's the only deterrent.
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I would assume that each of City's 115 charges are more or less at the same level as what Everton and Forest were found guilty of - at least. But points deduction is fine with me - if it's big enough and for a number of seasons.
 
It’s not like even City brings any eyes to the product. They can eliminate them and no one would even know.
 
Berbasbullet said:
It’s not like even City brings any eyes to the product. They can eliminate them and no one would even know.
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It's interesting that on my travels these days, plenty of foreign countries seem to have a growing support for Manchester City so I don't think that's strictly true. Maybe given more time they'd gain an even larger footing. I'm not suggesting that's going to factor into the hearing (really, Manchester City should have complied from the beginning and they'd have a slapped wrist) but knowing how corrupt and money driven our league is that may end up a factor. OTOH their seeming impunity is not a good look to the rest of the clubs in the league.

My feelings are that Chelsea are an even worse example of a club being run as laundry than City, so for them to escape while city are punished would feel partly unjust to me, but obviously the rules are the rules and I guess Jose and Roman clearly tried to comply with the rules for a few years, it's only Boehly and friends (who shouldn't remain nameless but it's harder to remember their names) who have started to get a bit silly
 
If they’re guilty even a points deduction doesn’t do it for me. They still get to make that up with their star assembled team which was put together unlawfully

It would need to be either relegation so they’re forced to sell some of them anyway. Or given an FFP bracket which would force them to sell most of their team.
 
If Saracens were demoted to 2nd division, stripped of the title, 35 points deducted for wage cap breaches..

By around 1m, and apparently was found to be not deliberate.

Then using that as an equivalent, doing a similar breach over such a long period surely the punishment should be several times worse than that? Since it's a longer period, larger sums, deliberate, none compliance and covering it up etc.
 
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For all the talk of points deductions, titles stripped and fines. The most appropriate punishment has to involve Abu Dhabi no longer owning Man City or before long they'll find another way to cheat again.

Massive fine, points deductions over 4 PL seasons (80, 50, 30, 15), and the current owners having to sell up. Which would probably need government involvement to achieve.

Stripping titles wouldn't hurt either but I doubt that will happen.
 
stevoc said:
For all the talk of points deductions, titles stripped and fines. The most appropriate punishment has to involve Abu Dhabi no longer owning Man City or before long they'll find another way to cheat again.

Massive fine, points deductions over 4 PL seasons (80, 50, 30, 15), and the current owners having to sell up. Which would probably need government involvement to achieve.

Stripping titles wouldn't hurt either but I doubt that will happen.
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All this talk about points deductions I don’t think is enough.
They should be expelled from the PL for a number of years. They don’t start each PL season on -50 points they just don’t get to play in it full stop.
Likewise a “relegation” isn’t enough as they just move down to the championship. Has to be expulsion, with conditions around club ownership attached to them ever being allowed back regardless of where they finish in the championship (if they ever get back up there).
 
stevoc said:
For all the talk of points deductions, titles stripped and fines. The most appropriate punishment has to involve Abu Dhabi no longer owning Man City or before long they'll find another way to cheat again.

Massive fine, points deductions over 4 PL seasons (80, 50, 30, 15), and the current owners having to sell up. Which would probably need government involvement to achieve.

Stripping titles wouldn't hurt either but I doubt that will happen.
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City owners obviously don’t like rules, so yeah they would try other ways and cover ups. They should be forced into selling as part of the punishment.

They are like the kid who cheats at monopoly by making up their own rules and threatening all the other players who try to stop them.

Also, after reading another article, it seems that their main defence is that the emails were obtained illegally. So it’s not that they are guilty and it’s there in black and white, it’s their argument that the evidence is inadmissible.
 
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I think one of the points people are missing is that if they are charged and proven to have cheated, the reputational damage alone will be monumental. I could see an exodus of players regardless of punishment because who wants their legacy to be associated with a cheating team.
 
OldSchoolManc said:
City owners obviously don’t like rules, so yeah they would try other ways and cover ups. They should be forced into selling as part of the punishment.

They are like the kid who cheats at monopoly by making up their own rules and threatening all the other players who try to stop them.

Also, after reading another article, it seems that their main defence is that the emails were obtained illegally. So it’s not that they are guilty and it’s there in black and white, it’s their argument that the evidence is inadmissible.
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They supplied some of them themselves to UEFA and I believe these ones could be used anyway?

(Not sure if obtained illegally matters or not or whether they'll have to supply them if asked etc)
 
OldSchoolManc said:
City owners obviously don’t like rules, so yeah they would try other ways and cover ups. They should be forced into selling as part of the punishment.

They are like the kid who cheats at monopoly by making up their own rules and threatening all the other players who try to stop them.

Also, after reading another article, it seems that their main defence is that the emails were obtained illegally. So it’s not that they are guilty and it’s there in black and white, it’s their argument that the evidence is inadmissible.
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The thing is, the "actual owner" likely had nothing to do with it.

Reading the e-mails it appears to be the directors and the people acting as liasons between the groups that appear to be doing it - of course, using the ownerships other companies and connections to do it though of course.

If projects like this exist purely for sportswashing and making the country look better, I'm not entirely sure how cheating benefits them - surely it does the opposite?

If found guilty could the owners just pull the plug and walk away anyway and just do it again somewhere else and not get caught or go about it differently?
 
I'd feel a bit more confident about this if Pep had left before this season, I just can't see why he'd put himself in the firing line if they are about to be found guilty.

Obviously he could still go before the verdit, but would look weird for him to go mid season.
 
I still think a deal will be agreed behind the scenes. One which looks like the PL have acted strongly but that Abu Dhabi are happy with.

Something like a £500m fine - which whilst a lot of money - isn't that considerable to AD in the grand scheme of things. The PL looks strong and City get away relatively scot free. The may even throw in a points deduction of 6-20 points which will be reduced on appeal.

There's just no way I can see them being relegated or stripped of the titles. The UK government won't want to upset their UAE counterparts - it was admitted that the City hearing has been discussed at government level and the FOI request wasn't disclosed because it contained 'sensitive information' so who knows what is happening behind the scenes.
 
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TrustInJanuzaj said:
I think one of the points people are missing is that if they are charged and proven to have cheated, the reputational damage alone will be monumental. I could see an exodus of players regardless of punishment because who wants their legacy to be associated with a cheating team.
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Yeah, I don't think football players earing a tonne of cash will give a flying feck.
 
SambaBoy said:
I still think a deal will be agreed behind the scenes. One which looks like the PL have acted strongly but that Abu Dhabi are happy with.

Something like a £500m fine - which whilst a lot of money - isn't that considerable to AD in the grand scheme of things. The PL looks strong and City get away relatively scot free. The may even through in a points deduction of 6-20 points which will be reduced on appeal.

There's just no way I can see them being relegated or stripped of the titles. The UK government won't want to upset their UAE counterparts - it was admitted that the City hearing has been discussed at government level and the FOI request wasn't disclosed because it contained 'sensitive information' so who knows what is happening behind the scenes.
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A monetary fine will be hugely criticised and viewed as nothing but the FA getting their cut of the spoils.
 
TrustInJanuzaj said:
I think one of the points people are missing is that if they are charged and proven to have cheated, the reputational damage alone will be monumental. I could see an exodus of players regardless of punishment because who wants their legacy to be associated with a cheating team.
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I feel the same. A relegation would do irreparable damage, in my opinion. Particularly as they shouldn’t be able to cheat again to recover.
 
steeeb said:
The thing is, the "actual owner" likely had nothing to do with it.

Reading the e-mails it appears to be the directors and the people acting as liasons between the groups that appear to be doing it - of course, using the ownerships other companies and connections to do it though of course.

If projects like this exist purely for sportswashing and making the country look better, I'm not entirely sure how cheating benefits them - surely it does the opposite?

If found guilty could the owners just pull the plug and walk away anyway and just do it again somewhere else and not get caught or go about it differently?
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The actual owner is the one supplying the money. Of course they had something to do with it. It isn't about making their country look better, its about their country being recognisable to the general public.
I'd give the owners and executives a life time ban from the sport so they cant pick up elsewhere personally. They could walk away but the club is worth hundreds of millions so that doesn't seem likely.
 
There's zero doubt the primary owner knew about the inflating of sponsorships through firms his family own, his handlers and himself probably helped craft the process and all.
 
I genuinely believe we will see some teams seriously fecked this season and City will be among them with the most harsh punishment. Long overdue
 
If they're found guilty, they can't simply be given a money fine. It would be globally mocked, disputed and condemned. Giving City of all teams a money fine is utterly pointless obviously.
 
I wonder will it affect the motivation of the players. I just hope the decision and punishment is known during the season, it can't drag on any longer
 
If they are found guilty, what punishment would people prefer…That they are stripped of all the titles won during that period but stay in the league or that they’re docked so many points they will effectively be relegated but they keep the previous titles?

Obviously in an ideal would it would be both but if you could only pick one option what would you go with?
 
Top_Bins said:
What is the possibility of a class action lawsuit being brought by any club that feels their cheating has impacted their earnings since 2008?

Surely if they are found guilty then there is a real case for one.
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None it would be an in house PL matter through their defined process akin to the WHU claims a few year’s ago
 
Malone_Post said:
If they are found guilty, what punishment would people prefer…That they are stripped of all the titles won during that period but stay in the league or that they’re docked so many points they will effectively be relegated but they keep the previous titles?

Obviously in an ideal would it would be both but if you could only pick one option what would you go with?
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Theres a scale I think that should apply here:

  • Accidentally breaking rules = Fine and small points deduction, getting bigger for repeat offences
  • Deliberately breaking rules in one season & admitting it = relegation
  • Deliberately breaking rules over multiple seasons, conspiring with others to hide it, blocking investigations and lawyering up to delay and obfuscate = There can be no other suitable punishment than permanent EPL expulsion under the current, or any associated, ownership.
I'm actually more annoyed by the behaviour of trying to hide it and block investigation than I am about the actual financial shenanigans, and it's this bit that needs to be completely hammered. The sheer lack of respect toward the league, it's members and the wider sport cannot be acceptable and cannot be presumed to not be done again at the first opportunity. It's harsh for [some of] the supporters, the players and staff - even though they would have to be in complete ostrich mode to not see it - but it has to be this way. An example has to be set. If the EFL chooses to take them or not is up to them, but the EPL should simply permanently bar them until the ownership is changed.

What happens then with regards to the titles and trophies it's hard to really say. For me there just needs to be no winner in each of the affected seasons with a massive asterisk and note about why. The club will be permanently tainted by it, but thats what you get for so willingly turning a blind eye to what has been rather obvious.

All assuming guilty, of course, but there's enough smoke I think.
 
The Purley King said:
All this talk about points deductions I don’t think is enough.
They should be expelled from the PL for a number of years. They don’t start each PL season on -50 points they just don’t get to play in it full stop.
Likewise a “relegation” isn’t enough as they just move down to the championship. Has to be expulsion, with conditions around club ownership attached to them ever being allowed back regardless of where they finish in the championship (if they ever get back up there).
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Don't know if the PL have the powers to expel them for x amount of years. They can dock them enough points to guarantee relegation of course. If they did expel them how would that work for the football pyramid? Would they go to the championship or down to non league and have to work their way back up? I've no idea.

But as much as they deserve very harsh punishment you have to remember it's their owners that have broken the rules. Yes City as a club need punished but their owners more so. Personally a season in the Championship and then subsequent point deductions for their next 3 PL seasons when they return to ensure they can't win the title or qualify for the CL is probably the harshest punishment we can hope for.
 
OldSchoolManc said:
City owners obviously don’t like rules, so yeah they would try other ways and cover ups. They should be forced into selling as part of the punishment.

They are like the kid who cheats at monopoly by making up their own rules and threatening all the other players who try to stop them.

Also, after reading another article, it seems that their main defence is that the emails were obtained illegally. So it’s not that they are guilty and it’s there in black and white, it’s their argument that the evidence is inadmissible.
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100% them and owners like them are a cancer on football. They've no interest in the sport or football fans. It's all just part of some selfish sportwashing enterprise. Mobs like that should have never been allowed into footbal in the first place.
 
Malone_Post said:
If they are found guilty, what punishment would people prefer…That they are stripped of all the titles won during that period but stay in the league or that they’re docked so many points they will effectively be relegated but they keep the previous titles?

Obviously in an ideal would it would be both but if you could only pick one option what would you go with?
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The latter, once it's official their previous title wins will be meaningless anyway. Well they pretty much already are, no one gives a shit about them.
 
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