City and Financial Doping | Charged by PL with numerous FFP breaches | Hearing begins 16th September 2024

golden_blunder said:
Don’t agree. The SL is a vehicle for the richest clubs to in the short term dig themselves out of a financial pickle and in the longer term become richer. And that doesn’t necessarily mean that the fans will benefit from better teams or cheaper ticket prices. It’ll just be more money in the pockets of people like the glazers
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Considering how things are going, with UEFA, FIFA and the PL, i'm not so sure it would be much of a problem. A reset is needed.
 
I used to be indifferent about their doping but these guys are taking the biscuit. Throw the book at them.
 
Given what we now know, of course City should be expelled from not just the Premier league but also by the FA - which would mean they don't even get relegated to a lower division but thrown out of the football pyramid as a whole.

However I can't see the FA having the stones to do that. A "one year" relegation down to the championship doesn't even BEGIN to be enough of a punishment and other clubs will have a very solid case to argue about the severity of their punishment for one or two breaches, if that is the weak punishment handed out for 115. If we consider other clubs breaches as "sins of omission" then deliberate concealment and lack of co-operation must have a much more severe punishment.

So if the Premier league and the FA were to agree that City should be relegated down to the National League they would be looking at effectively a 4-5 year banishment from the Premier league.

I wonder if that was the case, would City just up sticks and apply to join the Saudi league? - the players and staff would just re-locate out there and the Saudi league might be attracted by the idea of creating a more competitive spectacle.

A vestigial English club is left behind, languishing in the lower leagues (Manchester City AFC?). The only people suffering are the old school City fans left to choose between following the clubs slog back up the football pyramid or be a glory hunter and pay for a subscription to watch a retirement league in a sunnier place.
 
They've got to go, they're causing so much damage to the PL, can't they just boot them out? What's stopping them? How can they be sued if it's a private competition? If someone was in my house and I didn't want them there I have every right to throw them out.
 
SuperiorXI said:
They've got to go, they're causing so much damage to the PL, can't they just boot them out? What's stopping them? How can they be sued if it's a private competition? If someone was in my house and I didn't want them there I have every right to throw them out.
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Thats what I think, just get rid of them.

But if we look at this objectively, City wouldn't do this without a reason. A few weeks ago reports came out that the govt had meeting and the city charges were brought up as a topic of conversation. I feel that City owners feel they have govt backing so are untouchable.
 
1. There’s no crime we are clean.
2. So what if we did it, it’s so minor and inconsequential.
3. The rules are rigged against us and we’re the victims.
4. We did nothing wrong, it’s these two rogue executives who went off on their own breaking the rules.

We are at stage 3. We’ll likely soon enter stage 4 with a couple of lackeys taking the fall. The only question is how heavily the PL will penalize them.
 
MegadrivePerson said:
Man City and Chelsea aren't companies though, they are football clubs.
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Not true. They are limited companies. And you can not stop a limited company from making a capital increase. The EU court has ruled that sports clubs must comply with civil and commercial law.
 
SuperiorXI said:
They've got to go, they're causing so much damage to the PL, can't they just boot them out? What's stopping them? How can they be sued if it's a private competition? If someone was in my house and I didn't want them there I have every right to throw them out.
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It's probably money, no?

I don't particularly see Manchester City as a big club still... But money talks. Because of what they've been able to do and establish, they probably bring in significant financial gain through multiple channels for the FA/Premier League and those funds will go a long way toward the football pyramid, grassroots development and of course, lining the pockets of the fattest of cats. It's to be seen how much short-term damage this would cause for the FA/PL if they were banished, but I do think it is a point that has to be made (assuming the allegations are correct which at this point it seems almost impossible they are not).

I've said this all along and it seems to be glossed over by the vast majority of media covering this story... Banishment, multi-tier relegation, stripping of honours won over the period in question are a must if the integrity of the game is to be protected. Manchester City have most likely earned all of this through cheating if the expected outcome is met. What's more, they have been able to develop their youth set up, stadium, and training facilities which is why I don't think just a relegation, even if multi-tier, is enough. Because they have been able to establish themselves in such a way that they would climb the pyramid again within a few years.

All this says to me is "You might as well cheat", because the trajectory you have gained is astronomical in such a short space of time that most possible punishments are only going to set you back a miniscule amount. Man City could realistically set up their own tournaments to play 'friendlies' against teams that are in their off-season or winter breaks who want match fitness. They can play their youth players in the Championship/League 1 to develop them, and loan out key players they want to retain when they're back in the Premier League. It's just such complicated situation and they will find ways around it, and come back up to the Premier League with money to spare by being in the green every season through legal loopholes. It just stinks.
 
Stefan Borson is live on Talksport discussing at the moment

He thinks it is unlikely City will win this case.
 
golden_blunder said:
I fundamentally disagree with a reset that is benefitting to the biggest clubs
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Fair enough, but the path we're heading down with FIFA and UEFA is only going to involve more matches for national teams and more matches for clubs, both in relation to FIFA and UEFA tournaments.
 
NotChatGPT said:
Not sure how that will help in regards to UEFA and FIFA.

Or change anything in regards to PL and 115
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Well City cheated so I’m assuming they would have just circumvented a salary cap, so for them it makes no difference.

But as the poster said the issue football has, which is no one’s fault, is it would be much more entertaining to have different winners and teams rising and falling. We used to have this and really a team only ever could be elite for 2-3 seasons before rebuilding but the state ownership (unlimited money) + cheating meant that never happened. Without cheating in these last few seasons we’d have seen United, Pool, Arsenal all win the league. A non cheating City in certain would also have a won a couple by now.

This is much better than 1 team winning but the issue remains it’s the same ‘big’ clubs. A wage cap would make it much harder for these big clubs, ourselves included, to dominate whilst FFP essentially forces investors to safeguard the actual clubs and incentivises academy and infrastructure regeneration.
 
Berbaclass said:
Stefan Borson is live on Talksport discussing at the moment

He thinks it is unlikely City will win this case.
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I'm thinking on what grounds they think they can win. PL makes the rules and teams have agreed to it.

Now what, can relegated teams or midtable clubs file a case against PL and CL saying they don't agree with the rules that makes them earn 100 million less than others?
 
romufc said:
Thats what I think, just get rid of them.

But if we look at this objectively, City wouldn't do this without a reason. A few weeks ago reports came out that the govt had meeting and the city charges were brought up as a topic of conversation. I feel that City owners feel they have govt backing so are untouchable.
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If anything, this latest action would suggest Abu Dhabi haven't receive the kinds of assurances from the Govt that they assumed. It seems like a desperation move to me, which makes sense with the Tories likely not in power beyond the summer. These aren't the actions of an organisation quietly confident of dismissing the charges.
 
Zen86 said:
If anything, this latest action would suggest Abu Dhabi haven't receive the kinds of assurances from the Govt that they assumed. It seems like a desperation move to me, which makes sense with the Tories likely not in power beyond the summer. These aren't the actions of an organisation quietly confident of dismissing the charges.
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lets hope this is the case.

Its annoying cause City always get away with it.
 
Football, the working mans game, is as corrupt as it can ever be. Everybody from FIFA and UEFA bigwigs to greedy owners and greedy agents have a finger in the pie. each and every one of the above taking full advantage of the average fans loyalties. Unfortunately, the fans ceased to matter many years ago. I have zero confidence in the powers that be to put things right. I'm convinced City will get away with what they have done. I'm totally disillusioned with the changes I've seen in My lifetime. None of these changes have benefitted the Fans.
 
Berbaclass said:
Good. Fight fire with fire.
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There's another way to view it: City's investigation dodging and instigation of a game of legal top trumps has effectively diverted money from grassroots football and community projects into the pockets of lawyers.

If that sounds like it's stretching, City have argued that being financially compliant will force them to divert money from the very same things!
 
Havak said:
It's probably money, no?

I don't particularly see Manchester City as a big club still... But money talks. Because of what they've been able to do and establish, they probably bring in significant financial gain through multiple channels for the FA/Premier League and those funds will go a long way toward the football pyramid, grassroots development and of course, lining the pockets of the fattest of cats. It's to be seen how much short-term damage this would cause for the FA/PL if they were banished, but I do think it is a point that has to be made (assuming the allegations are correct which at this point it seems almost impossible they are not).

I've said this all along and it seems to be glossed over by the vast majority of media covering this story... Banishment, multi-tier relegation, stripping of honours won over the period in question are a must if the integrity of the game is to be protected. Manchester City have most likely earned all of this through cheating if the expected outcome is met. What's more, they have been able to develop their youth set up, stadium, and training facilities which is why I don't think just a relegation, even if multi-tier, is enough. Because they have been able to establish themselves in such a way that they would climb the pyramid again within a few years.

All this says to me is "You might as well cheat", because the trajectory you have gained is astronomical in such a short space of time that most possible punishments are only going to set you back a miniscule amount. Man City could realistically set up their own tournaments to play 'friendlies' against teams that are in their off-season or winter breaks who want match fitness. They can play their youth players in the Championship/League 1 to develop them, and loan out key players they want to retain when they're back in the Premier League. It's just such complicated situation and they will find ways around it, and come back up to the Premier League with money to spare by being in the green every season through legal loopholes. It just stinks.
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You have highlighted the potential short term damage, but to allow them to continue would lead to catastrophic long term damage IMO, as you have said it is essentially in the interest of clubs to cheat and bend the rules to gain an unfair advantage because the punishment is not adequate and the rewards are great. The rest of the PL must see this, and also there is an elephant in the room in Newcastle who must be keeping a very close eye on this... if you are setting a precedent that cheating will be punished but the punishment in relative terms will be a minor temporary inconvenience then the future and integrity of the league is at stake. There can easily be more Chelsea's, City's and Newcastle's, there are more wealthy states out there. The Government cannot let the PL become a playground of lite-proxy wars.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
Well City cheated so I’m assuming they would have just circumvented a salary cap, so for them it makes no difference.

But as the poster said the issue football has, which is no one’s fault, is it would be much more entertaining to have different winners and teams rising and falling. We used to have this and really a team only ever could be elite for 2-3 seasons before rebuilding but the state ownership (unlimited money) + cheating meant that never happened. Without cheating in these last few seasons we’d have seen United, Pool, Arsenal all win the league. A non cheating City in certain would also have a won a couple by now.

This is much better than 1 team winning but the issue remains it’s the same ‘big’ clubs. A wage cap would make it much harder for these big clubs, ourselves included, to dominate whilst FFP essentially forces investors to safeguard the actual clubs and incentivises academy and infrastructure regeneration.
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Agreed.

I also dont agree with what other say, regardless of cheating they still need to win on the pitch. Whilst the statement is correct, the manager has to be able to coach players and they do have the best coach.

If they couldn't spend, they wouldnt be able to afford to buy a 100m winger and leave him on the bench for a season, buy a CM for £50m and can rot on the bench.

We can spend money, when we buy players like Maguire, Fred, Antony, we cant get another CB, Winger, CM because we have spent so much on these players meaning, when a mistake is made in the transfer window, our manager pays as we cant afford to just not use them. Whereas City can go buy another winger, Cm and no one say, but you spent x amount so no budget.

Also, City can sugar coat it however they like, even me who is not a financial expert can tell you, there is no chance City generate more commercial revenue than Real Madrid, which City claim.
 
romufc said:
lets hope this is the case.

Its annoying cause City always get away with it.
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They do, but this has massively escalated the issue and brought it into the spotlight. The problem beforehand was nobody acknowledging or really discussing any of this in the media. That's quickly changed, and the pressure will build. The narrative is different now. It's has gone from the PL pursuing City, to Abu Dhabi effectively launching an attack on football. You can see the change in attitude from the general fanbase and that will count for something.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
Well City cheated so I’m assuming they would have just circumvented a salary cap, so for them it makes no difference.

But as the poster said the issue football has, which is no one’s fault, is it would be much more entertaining to have different winners and teams rising and falling. We used to have this and really a team only ever could be elite for 2-3 seasons before rebuilding but the state ownership (unlimited money) + cheating meant that never happened. Without cheating in these last few seasons we’d have seen United, Pool, Arsenal all win the league. A non cheating City in certain would also have a won a couple by now.

This is much better than 1 team winning but the issue remains it’s the same ‘big’ clubs. A wage cap would make it much harder for these big clubs, ourselves included, to dominate whilst FFP essentially forces investors to safeguard the actual clubs and incentivises academy and infrastructure regeneration.
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Is there such a thing, post takeover? Even in the early days of the takeover, Mancini was getting two paychecks. I doubt he was the only one.
 
This is a punch back , hoping it will all go away.?
This is to drag it out as long as they can..

Get rid of aging players bring in players again before This is sorted out... FA act now please..
 
didz said:
There's another way to view it: City's investigation dodging and instigation of a game of legal top trumps has effectively diverted money from grassroots football and community projects into the pockets of lawyers.

If that sounds like it's stretching, City have argued that being financially compliant will force them to divert money from the very same things!
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It’s also not sustainable, and a classic “much-richer-than-you” tactic is to drain the coffers of the poorer and beat them via financial muscle.

How much have they budgeted to fight City, and how long can they entertain it for? And where is that money going to come from when/if the original pot is empty?

If this doesn’t expedite things, nothing will. There’s a cancer in the league and it needs cutting out.
 
pascell said:
Newcastle I can understand but Villa are a strange one, they do seem to have a lot of money somehow.
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I've tried to find the soundbite from Kaveh on Sky, but I'm 90% sure he said Newcastle and Villa.
There are a lot of clubs against it, 12 I think, so they need 2 more to get it thrown out, a lot of clubs are reported as sending reps to the hearing to speak against City.
 
pascell said:
Newcastle I can understand but Villa are a strange one, they do seem to have a lot of money somehow.
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Look for clubs with very rich owners who such a ruling, away from the current status quo, that would benefit hugely from having carte blanche to throw as much money as they want at their project and expedite the process of becoming a powerhouse in a fraction of the time. For them, this is a bigger dilemma, one they can see sense in not supporting the current structure, even at the risk of becoming pariahs.

If this goes through, you’ll have an even bigger version of what Serie A was in the 80’s and 90’s. A proper free for all, and it’ll likely entice even more entities who have no place in football to buy in.
 
Matt Varnish said:
I've tried to find the soundbite from Kaveh on Sky, but I'm 90% sure he said Newcastle and Villa.
There are a lot of clubs against it, 12 I think, so they need 2 more to get it thrown out, a lot of clubs are reported as sending reps to the hearing to speak against City.
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Some clubs have abstained so it’s interesting to see what happens next ?
 
If this doesn't turn the media against City, it'll be a self-evident fact that they've been bought. Up until now, they have been fawning over City and conveniently ignoring all the controversies, and it was very clear that they were going out of their way to fluff the club up. There was room to suppose that they might just not want to rock the boat and denigrate the current top team, though. Now, with this underhanded and politically charged assault on English football in its entirety, the media must finally stop coddling City or they'll effectively have admitted that they're in the owner's pocket.
 
didz said:
There's another way to view it: City's investigation dodging and instigation of a game of legal top trumps has effectively diverted money from grassroots football and community projects into the pockets of lawyers.

If that sounds like it's stretching, City have argued that being financially compliant will force them to divert money from the very same things!
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Came to post that, hopefully they get the costs back and don't hold back on them now.
 
They got rid of Klopp who I think was really the only threat to them, if the PL don't do anything City will just win the title for ever more. They keep saying it is competitive. Well sorry but who has won the last four titles, the only break was when Liverpool won durig covid. The the Leicester win of course. I know we were successful, but Arsenal broke it up at times, Chelsea broke it up at times. City will destroy the PL and it has been on the cards since they were allowed to buy City.
 
Wednesday at Stoke said:
1. There’s no crime we are clean.
2. So what if we did it, it’s so minor and inconsequential.
3. The rules are rigged against us and we’re the victims.
4. We did nothing wrong, it’s these two rogue executives who went off on their own breaking the rules.

We are at stage 3. We’ll likely soon enter stage 4 with a couple of lackeys taking the fall. The only question is how heavily the PL will penalize them.
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They're the Donald Trump of football clubs
 
They will get away with it , no question. The gov will get involved with it.
 
DomesticTadpole said:
They got rid of Klopp who I think was really the only threat to them, if the PL don't do anything City will just win the title for ever more. They keep saying it is competitive. Well sorry but who has won the last four titles, the only break was when Liverpool won durig covid. The the Leicester win of course. I know we were successful, but Arsenal broke it up at times, Chelsea broke it up at times. City will destroy the PL and it has been on the cards since they were allowed to buy City.
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Klopp was never a threat. Long term, the average club just can't compete with state ownership.

That's the difference now. Success in the past was dictated by great managers and great teams, and those cycles always come to an end. State ownership doesn't abide by the same laws, as enough money will guarantee your place at the top. There are no real consequences of making bad decisions. They might lose out on the title every now and then, but they will always be in contention.
 
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