City and Financial Doping | Charged by PL with numerous FFP breaches | Hearing begins 16th September 2024

You clearly don’t understand ‘due process’ City don’t have to prove their innocence, the PL have to prove their guilt. That’s how judicial process works.
Nonsense, if someone accused you of having dodgy photos on your phone and it went public and everyone thought you're a dodgy person and treated you as such, if an investigation opened up and you knew 100% you were innocent, you'd hand you phone over to authorities immediately to prove your innocence. You wouldn't go telling them nah mate get a warrant, because that lends credence to the accusation and drags the situation out much longer, which is what City are doing.
All PL clubs have a contract with the PL regarding reporting their financials and cooperating in any investigations if said financials were not adding up, City are not doing that, they're the ONLY ones not doing that, I wonder why.
 
“…people posting stuff like the twitter thread generally have no fecking clue what they are on about”.

Well… cheers.

I just posted it without any opinion or conjecture, but ok.

I wasn't on about you buddy. I was referring to the twitter guy. Of course you are entitled to give opinions and share stuff but likewise I'm entitled to say I disagree with that twitter guy and explain why, bring receipts and proof.
I probably should have said "people posting stuff out of context like that twitter guy" in hindsight. so apologies if it came across as a dig at you personally. Not my intent at all, more a dig at the twitter dude who is like "Heres the proof" when all his proof has been disproven.
 
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If City get away with this, or are even punished on a small scale, it will be interesting to see what Newcastle do. So far they've been trying to follow the rules and if City get away with it, what stops them from going all in as well? The precedent would have been set already. The Saudi's certainly didn't buy Newcastle to challenge for a Champions League place. Not to mention the Saudi's have alot more power on a global stage than Abu Dhabi do.

Not to mention what City will do as well. There's potential for the clubs to become brazen in their corruption if the lawman is too weak to stop them.

Tough times ahead for the PL
 
It's not really about 'lying', they're a newspaper and they report on what's actually happened. They strongly allude to the fact it's a bit dodgey (surely you agree with this?) but that's the limit of that they do.

I am flabbergasted you actually wrote that 2nd para. The guy who chaired the White & Case office in MENA who has those exact clients, you honestly believe has no conflict of interest? You accept it's weird, so there are two weird instances on a panel of 3 and you think it's bias?

You can call me pessimistic but there's no bias here because it makes no sense unless something underhand has happened. Why would UEFA willingly go to all this trouble to then essentially throw the case? Even if they thought Santos was fine, they would go with one of many many other options just in case. We're not dealing with idiots here, it is common sense.

Exactly they aren't lying, they are telling the truth and the truth said "no impartiality (maybe bias can't remember"). I'm saying they said that likely because its true.

Doesn't it usually happen with CAS where both sides recommend one each and a 3rd impartial is selected which is what happened here. The only thing odd is City suggesting him but I have a feeling had UEFA suggested him no one would bat an eye. Its weird but I have no reason to believe he's biased simply because City recommended him, no more than I have to presume Rosen biased. City and Uefa on the other hand were free to argue that bias if they believe it there, City did and the cynic in me and most the Caf believe it wasn't because they believe Rosen actually biased but to drag things out. Uefa didn't.

You are saying you're not biased but then immediately use pure bias speculating on something underhand happening. How can you say that sentence is not biased? Exactly why would Uefa go along with it, seems like your in agreement with me on this but disagree on the why. I tend to take it at face value till I hear or see proof otherwise, you tend to presume something shady happened. One of those is a more biased take than the other.

And again just to make sure, I think City guilty, but my point in quoting the twitter thing is I also think the PL are gonna have a proper hard job getting stuff over the line, given how City hammered Uefa at CAS despite what the time barred etc.. stuff being used to try and gloss over the actual decisions but theres zero reason to think anything underhanded went on with the CAS decisions regardless of who recommended Santos.
 
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Exactly they aren't lying, they are telling the truth and the truth said "no impartiality (maybe bias can't remember"). I'm saying they said that likely because its true.

Doesn't it usually happen with CAS where both sides recommend one each and a 3rd impartial is selected which is what happened here. The only thing odd is City suggesting him but I have a feeling had UEFA suggested him no one would bat an eye. Its weird but I have no reason to believe he's biased simply because City recommended him, no more than I have to presume Rosen biased. City and Uefa on the other hand were free to argue that bias if they believe it there, City did and the cynic in me and most the Caf believe it wasn't because they believe Rosen actually biased but to drag things out. Uefa didn't.

You are saying you're not biased but then immediately use pure bias speculating on something underhand happening. How can you say that sentence is not biased? Exactly why would Uefa go along with it, seems like your in agreement with me on this but disagree on the why. I tend to take it at face value till I hear or see proof otherwise, you tend to presume something shady happened. One of those is a more biased take than the other.

And again just to make sure, I think City guilty, but my point in quoting the twitter thing is I also think the PL are gonna have a proper hard job getting stuff over the line, given how City hammered Uefa at CAS despite what the time barred etc.. stuff being used to try and gloss over the actual decisions but theres zero reason to think anything underhanded went on with the CAS decisions regardless of who recommended Santos.

If you think the Der Spiegel emails don't amount to much in the broader context and think City hammered UEFA at CAS, and also take things at face value till you hear or see proof otherwise, on what basis or evidence do you think City are guilty?

Is it just that, on the whole, the ascent of the club is hard to believe at face value without breaking some rules? The dodgy betting and crypto or valuation of UAE-adjacent sponsorships? The hard-to-believe revenue figures? A general presumption about the way business is done in that part of the world? Or is it moreso that City have broken the spirt of the rules even if it may be tough task to prove they have broken the letter?

Just curious about the basis of your belief that City are guilty, which you've been pretty consistent on.
 
24 hours of celebration and City fans back to their main occupation: defending their cheating & corrupt stain of a club
 
Issue here is the CAS panel was a joke (City picked one member, UEFA picked one and then, for a reason no one wants to comment on, City recommended the chairman who will have the deciding vote...so even though it might say the 'majority of the panel', it only means the two guys City chose to be on the panel, versus the one they did not. The UEFA pick was a lawyer who specializes in CAS cases so was an obvious pick for UEFA, the City pick was, as we have come to expect from them, dodgey as sin.
Recommended and choose are not the same thing.
 
Exactly they aren't lying, they are telling the truth and the truth said "no impartiality (maybe bias can't remember"). I'm saying they said that likely because its true.

Doesn't it usually happen with CAS where both sides recommend one each and a 3rd impartial is selected which is what happened here. The only thing odd is City suggesting him but I have a feeling had UEFA suggested him no one would bat an eye. Its weird but I have no reason to believe he's biased simply because City recommended him, no more than I have to presume Rosen biased. City and Uefa on the other hand were free to argue that bias if they believe it there, City did and the cynic in me and most the Caf believe it wasn't because they believe Rosen actually biased but to drag things out. Uefa didn't.

You are saying you're not biased but then immediately use pure bias speculating on something underhand happening. How can you say that sentence is not biased? Exactly why would Uefa go along with it, seems like your in agreement with me on this but disagree on the why. I tend to take it at face value till I hear or see proof otherwise, you tend to presume something shady happened. One of those is a more biased take than the other.

And again just to make sure, I think City guilty, but my point in quoting the twitter thing is I also think the PL are gonna have a proper hard job getting stuff over the line, given how City hammered Uefa at CAS despite what the time barred etc.. stuff being used to try and gloss over the actual decisions but theres zero reason to think anything underhanded went on with the CAS decisions regardless of who recommended Santos.
You used the word lying, not me…they suggest otherwise but won’t state it for legal reasons as discussed already.

That’s not what bias is? I’m saying to you here are the facts re the CAS panel and there are two shady parts to the panel. You’ve already agreed it is weird. If we are very generous re McDougall and just say because he’s elected by City he’s going to be City’s man (and vice versa for UEFA) it still makes it extremely strange to have a City recommendation as essentially the deciding vote. Like, why? There are lots of options, it makes no sense.

Also, the CAS case was very small and specific. It was about the emails and ONLY etisalat and etihad. Given the former was time barred, the only thing City ‘won’ was they could not prove Etihad money specifically had been disguised. When you actually read the doc, it paints City in an awful light. There’s a part where it comes to light their expert witness was banned from answering specific questions and they essentially refused to hand over anything and so the only evidence that was judged was a few emails with massively redacted sections…

From what I can tell re the PL’s investigation it is essentially a full audit of the club. They are saying we believe you have these 115 charges and we need x, y and z documents. I agree it will be very hard to prove but really it will come down to what punishment they give for City not providing documents (that’s my opinion based off what we’re hearing about City delaying everything) because the truth is City’s best defence might simply be to refuse to hand over anything at all. Purely speculation but that’s what I believe has been going on, dragging it out, sending loads of irrelevant docs, redacting everything they can, basically making it impossible to ‘prove’ anything.
 
Recommended and choose are not the same thing.
Be a bit weird if a white collar criminal recommend a judge for their trail and then were found not guilty? But you think because they didn’t ‘choose’ them it’s fine? Not much to say if the answer to that second part is ‘yes’.
 
Nonsense, if someone accused you of having dodgy photos on your phone and it went public and everyone thought you're a dodgy person and treated you as such, if an investigation opened up and you knew 100% you were innocent, you'd hand you phone over to authorities immediately to prove your innocence. You wouldn't go telling them nah mate get a warrant, because that lends credence to the accusation and drags the situation out much longer, which is what City are doing.
All PL clubs have a contract with the PL regarding reporting their financials and cooperating in any investigations if said financials were not adding up, City are not doing that, they're the ONLY ones not doing that, I wonder why.
It's not that simple, many would say no just to use their right not to, instead of being pressured into it. Also giving your phone in and them finding nothing doesn't prove much, and it won't stop the accusations.
 
Could not agree more. The UK govt is at fault for allowing these sales to go through in the first place. There needs to be due diligence and instead it became the Wild West. (Not the only govt at fault in this respect)
We got the worst of it too. Imagine selling your biggest club side and institution to some cowboys from the USA.

Seemingly nobody even looked at how much the Glazer’s could afford at the time which shows the greed and I’ll be honest low IQ of the people in the game at the time.

I think in the 00’s the Premier League was just winging it really once it became successful.

More professional entities would have laughed the Glazer’s out of the place saying they are just buying with loans and I think Sir Alex and a few others have a lot to answer for.

Seemingly they wanted to just cash out on their success. I’d love to know the actual story because someone was to blame at our club and the FA.
 
Be a bit weird if a white collar criminal recommend a judge for their trail and then were found not guilty? But you think because they didn’t ‘choose’ them it’s fine? Not much to say if the answer to that second part is ‘yes’.

Wasn't it arbitration, not a trial before a judge? In trials white collar criminals forum shop for favorable judges all the time.
 
Wasn't it arbitration, not a trial before a judge? In trials white collar criminals forum shop for favorable judges all the time.
Yeah just a high level example. Obviously it wasn’t a trial and there was no jury but v odd to have any influence, no matter how small, over the deciding vote.
 
We got the worst of it too. Imagine selling your biggest club side and institution to some cowboys from the USA.

Seemingly nobody even looked at how much the Glazer’s could afford at the time which shows the greed and I’ll be honest low IQ of the people in the game at the time.

I think in the 00’s the Premier League was just winging it really once it became successful.

More professional entities would have laughed the Glazer’s out of the place saying they are just buying with loans and I think Sir Alex and a few others have a lot to answer for.

Seemingly they wanted to just cash out on their success. I’d love to know the actual story because someone was to blame at our club and the FA.

The 00s really was where it all went wrong for the integrity of the PL.
 
Yeah just a high level example. Obviously it wasn’t a trial and there was no jury but v odd to have any influence, no matter how small, over the deciding vote.

It's arbitration. It just doesn't seem that odd that a party to an arbitration would do what they could to influence or recommend the most favorable and/or competent panel as possible; especially one a aggressive, litigious and "resourceful" as City are. Uefa had a right to object to Santos as chairman and refrained from doing so and in fact even welcomed him.

Right in the judgement it says "UEFA has no objection to the proposal made by Appellant in its letter of today (i.e. to appoint Mr. Rui Botica Santos as Chairman), and in order to avoid any delay in the constitution of the panel, UEFA would welcome if CAS appoints the chairman for this Appeal Procedure soon." It seems like his chairmanship was acceptable to and agreed by both parties; it's not like Uefa had no say in the matter.

I suppose you could draw an inference that they were grossly negligent in accepting Santos or the bribes/checks to Uefa officials had cleared and so they welcomed to bring the whole thing to a quick end.
 
It's arbitration. It just doesn't seem that odd that a party to an arbitration would do what they could to influence or recommend the most favorable and/or competent panel as possible; especially one a aggressive, litigious and "resourceful" as City are. Uefa had a right to object to Santos as chairman and refrained from doing so and in fact even welcomed him.

Right in the judgement it says "UEFA has no objection to the proposal made by Appellant in its letter of today (i.e. to appoint Mr. Rui Botica Santos as Chairman), and in order to avoid any delay in the constitution of the panel, UEFA would welcome if CAS appoints the chairman for this Appeal Procedure soon." It seems like his chairmanship was acceptable to and agreed by both parties; it's not like Uefa had no say in the matter.

I suppose you could draw an inference that they were grossly negligent in accepting Santos or the bribes/checks to Uefa officials had cleared and so they welcomed to bring the whole thing to a quick end.
Yeah exactly the last paragraph. As in what do we know factually. UEFA wanted to punish City (they banned them from the CL), City took them to CAS. Why then appoint someone recommend by the party you are accusing even if you think they’re fine? It’s just very odd.
 
Yeah exactly the last paragraph. As in what do we know factually. UEFA wanted to punish City (they banned them from the CL), City took them to CAS. Why then appoint someone recommend by the party you are accusing even if you think they’re fine? It’s just very odd.

Could be. Could be that given UEFA are repeat players at CAS and Santos is a repeat/frequent panelist whom they've encountered before, they rather take their chances with a relatively known/respected quantity than some other infrequently-used panelist that might be more susceptible to "influence".
 
I know it’s not the BlueMoon thread but, someone’s a bit salty


Mancini’s Pastilles
After all day of listening to and seeing on social media not one congratulations but all the usual comments but even worse degrading our club the damage is done to our reputation and if we are innocent i hope we take the entire league down. No working with PL for best outcome. Take them to cleaners, the damage they have done is irreparable. So no working with PL or helping PL save face just destroy them
 
Could be. Could be that given UEFA are repeat players at CAS and Santos is a repeat/frequent panelist whom they've encountered before, they rather take their chances with a relatively known/respected quantity than some other infrequently-used panelist that might be more susceptible to "influence".
You're making my point for me? If they know him and think he will give them a good chance of doing well, rather than 'take their chances', surely you agree it would have been better for the independently chosen 3rd person to not come recommended by the defendant?
 
You're making my point for me? If they know him and think he will give them a good chance of doing well, rather than 'take their chances', surely you agree it would have been better for the independently chosen 3rd person to not come recommended by the defendant?

Better than what? Somebody had to be chosen to do it. In an ideal universe, yes better not to have the recommendation come from City. It's probably even better still for UEFA if UEFA had made the recommendation and City somehow agreed to it.

But this is not an ideal universe. CAS has a limited pool of arbitrators from which to select and amongst that pool a select few (the known quantities) hear a disproportionate number of proceedings, probably because of their professional qualifications, reputation, standing, etc. So the choice is between the acceptable-to-City Santos (factoring in your knowledge of the guy and the fact that the recommendation from City) or objecting, fighting it longer, prolonging proceedings, which people seem to object to, and still possibly ending up with a lesser known quantity who is more of a wildcard and possibly more susceptible to "influence". You can make the choice to take to option before you or keeping fighting for the ideal/better scenario and face the prospect of increased variability of outcomes.

....Or UEFA are just incompetent or took bribes to get the thing over with. If they went the brides route though, then perhaps both parties have been sloppy. The sneakier way would have been to bribe the UEFA officials then have them make the recommendation of the paid-off panel Chairman to which City begrudgingly assents in the name of speedy justice, which City loves, and then somehow against a panel stacked against them with UEFA's chosen panelists achieve a stunning, underdog victory in typical City fashion.
 
Better than what? Somebody had to be chosen to do it. In an ideal universe, yes better not to have the recommendation come from City. It's probably even better still for UEFA if UEFA had made the recommendation and City somehow agreed to it.

But this is not an ideal universe. CAS has a limited pool of arbitrators from which to select and amongst that pool a select few (the known quantities) hear a disproportionate number of proceedings, probably because of their professional qualifications, reputation, standing, etc. So the choice is between the acceptable-to-City Santos (factoring in your knowledge of the guy and the fact that the recommendation from City) or objecting, fighting it longer, prolonging proceedings, which people seem to object to, and still possibly ending up with a lesser known quantity who is more of a wildcard and possibly more susceptible to "influence". You can make the choice to take to option before you or keeping fighting for the ideal/better scenario and face the prospect of increased variability of outcomes.

....Or UEFA are just incompetent or took bribes to get the thing over with. If they went the brides route though, then perhaps both parties have been sloppy. The sneakier way would have been to bribe the UEFA officials then have them make the recommendation of the paid-off panel Chairman to which City begrudgingly assents in the name of speedy justice, which City loves, and then somehow against a panel stacked against them with UEFA's chosen panelists achieve a stunning, underdog victory in typical City fashion.
There’s literally hundreds of people they could have picked? You can go on their website and see everyone who is a member.
I get the point it’s not a perfect world, sadly the way the law works means lawyers can make it incredibly difficult to actually prove something and I agree with the other posters point that it will be very tough for the PL to get stuff to stick if City aren’t cooperating.
 
There’s literally hundreds of people they could have picked? You can go on their website and see everyone who is a member.
I get the point it’s not a perfect world, sadly the way the law works means lawyers can make it incredibly difficult to actually prove something and I agree with the other posters point that it will be very tough for the PL to get stuff to stick if City aren’t cooperating.

Yes, there are hundreds of people eligible, but the reality of CAS is that a small subset of those arbitrators see most of proceedings (what I am calling the known quantities) and the majority of those eligible are not involved in that many proceedings at all (the unknown quantities). I've read that 20 of the 400 or so eligible panelists are involved in almost 60 percent of the proceedings, and those are mostly from Europe, the U.S. and Israel and not other places where City-affiliated individuals might enjoy more...influence. I suspect Santos is one of those super-arbitrators about whom UEFA has some grasp of his reputation or some type of pattern recognition. Maybe they could have fought for another of the guys in this sub-group that City would have found mutually agreeable, but you're probably stepping into more uncertain waters if you go outside of that pool.
 
Nonsense, if someone accused you of having dodgy photos on your phone and it went public and everyone thought you're a dodgy person and treated you as such, if an investigation opened up and you knew 100% you were innocent, you'd hand you phone over to authorities immediately to prove your innocence. You wouldn't go telling them nah mate get a warrant, because that lends credence to the accusation and drags the situation out much longer

This is terrifying advice.

If you are under investigation, for the love of all that is holy, do not hand your phone over to the authorities immediately to "prove your innocence". Get a lawyer, shut the feck up and follow their advice.

Asking the authorities to get a warrant does not lend credence to the accusation, it protects your rights.
 
This is terrifying advice.

If you are under investigation, for the love of all that is holy, do not hand your phone over to the authorities immediately to "prove your innocence". Get a lawyer, shut the feck up and follow their advice.

Asking the authorities to get a warrant does not lend credence to the accusation, it protects your rights.

Perfect advice for people with skeletons to hide. My point was merely on the cooperation aspect, whether it be directly or through a lawyer, there's no way an innocent person makes an investigation as hard as possible for authorities, there wouldn't be anything to lose by cooperating if you're innocent, especially when you're being tainted public and are treated badly because of a false accusation.
 
Liverpool and Arsenal are 2000/1 to be relegated next season.

Manchester City who are aiming for 5 titles in a row are 25/1.

pricing in the 115 charges and possible punishment of relegation.
 
So, UK General Election called for 4 July. Labour are currently well ahead in the opinion polls. A change of government could see a change in attitude from the new government with regard to pursuing the 115 charges against city. Keir Starmer is an Arsenal fan, so could that factor override not wanting to upset the UAE government?
 
So, UK General Election called for 4 July. Labour are currently well ahead in the opinion polls. A change of government could see a change in attitude from the new government with regard to pursuing the 115 charges against city. Keir Starmer is an Arsenal fan, so could that factor override not wanting to upset the UAE government?
:lol: putting international relations behind who you support in a game. I think some people need to take a step back - way too invested in this.
 
Nonsense, if someone accused you of having dodgy photos on your phone and it went public and everyone thought you're a dodgy person and treated you as such, if an investigation opened up and you knew 100% you were innocent, you'd hand you phone over to authorities immediately to prove your innocence. You wouldn't go telling them nah mate get a warrant, because that lends credence to the accusation and drags the situation out much longer, which is what City are doing.
All PL clubs have a contract with the PL regarding reporting their financials and cooperating in any investigations if said financials were not adding up, City are not doing that, they're the ONLY ones not doing that, I wonder why.

This is terrifying advice.

If you are under investigation, for the love of all that is holy, do not hand your phone over to the authorities immediately to "prove your innocence". Get a lawyer, shut the feck up and follow their advice.

Asking the authorities to get a warrant does not lend credence to the accusation, it protects your rights.
Nah it isn’t. It’s great advice if you wanna get something done and dusted and get your property back. If you are innocent in the case he explained. If you hand over your phone with PIN code the investigation is over far quicker and you get your phone back. There’s plenty legislation to use to seize your phone and there’s even a separate offence for refusing to provide PIN codes to enter said phone. Solicitors would actually advise cooperating so long as course if said suspect was innocent.
 
So, UK General Election called for 4 July. Labour are currently well ahead in the opinion polls. A change of government could see a change in attitude from the new government with regard to pursuing the 115 charges against city. Keir Starmer is an Arsenal fan, so could that factor override not wanting to upset the UAE government?

All politicians pretend to be football fans because it makes them seem more relatable. I doubt most of them really care about football.

Remember when David Cameron couldn't remember which team he pretended to support? He said he supported West Ham when he'd previously said Aston Villa. Then tried to claim he must have got them mixed up because they wear the same colours!
 
All politicians pretend to be football fans because it makes them seem more relatable. I doubt most of them really care about football.

Remember when David Cameron couldn't remember which team he pretended to support? He said he supported West Ham when he'd previously said Aston Villa. Then tried to claim he must have got them mixed up because they wear the same colours!
Neh Kier Starmer for all his faults is genuinely a massive football fan.
 
All politicians pretend to be football fans because it makes them seem more relatable. I doubt most of them really care about football.

Remember when David Cameron couldn't remember which team he pretended to support? He said he supported West Ham when he'd previously said Aston Villa. Then tried to claim he must have got them mixed up because they wear the same colours!

It seems like football is something that is important to Starmer or at least on his radar though, given his meeting with Sir Jim.
 
Beyond City, there is a larger question of who we let buy our businesses. Especially, some of our iconic ones around the country like long standing football clubs.

No Abramovich, No Usmanov, No Dubai, No Saudi state. At least do some basic diligence and apply common sense. No obvious crooks, no states.