Their whole celebrations are so fake for the cameras and lack excitement.
City and Financial Doping | Charged by PL with numerous FFP breaches | Hearing begins 16th September 2024
- Thread starter VanGaalEra
- Start date
Cant prove someone is drink driving if they dont provide a breath sample - so the max punishment is given.
Same should apply here
35 charges are for obstruction, not using a legal tactic to delay. If they were of the legal nature, they would not have charged them.
I understand they would not have legal powers, but there should be a mechanism to inform authorities that do have the power to investigate. Here is the problem, you have a situation where the PL is saying the accountants did something illegal, but really cannot do anything about it. In a normal world this should prompt a reaction by the authorities to look into the matter as well.
I understand cooking the books is related, I even said it, but they are not all related to the same PSR charge. It all could have been split up. Everton were brought up on two separate PSR charges were they not, and subsequently received two different deductions.
Maybe slightly off topic. Someone asked if there were any controversial VAR decisions that went against Man city. It's alarming that any controversial referee decision will almost always be for rather than against Man city.
Brilliant thread. I've read through most of the stuff before but that's a great refresher.
How can they possibly get away with this? Genuine question. I don't see how it's possible.
I get that many really don't want to get their hopes up but on the surface it seems a pretty open and shut case.
The most likely outcome is City compensates every team in the league including Everton and Forest and a points deduction.
I suppose City are a dry run for Newcastle.
Hopefully yes it will as i have skin in that game and would love to also see City punished.
But you can bet its being discussed by intersted parties to apply pressure.
I haven’t seen any footage of any of City’s title wins unless it flashes by during a PL intro montage. It’s been like this for a decade. Pathetic little club build on frauds. Will be a great day once they get what’s coming.
Not sure the other clubs have denied anything though, they have arguing their case for mitigating factors (and succeeded in the second Everton punishment reduction) and generally cooperated, indeed Forest had their points penalty reduced for an 'early plea' and not obstructing PSR.
City are just denying everything which is mad as part of the evidence is public and has been proven to be authentic.
Apparently 61 percent viewers of Skyports watched Klopp's farewell game, as opposed to about 23 percent watching City celebration.
Oh, right, I agree with that (obstruction re: not going along with the investigation)
I'm not sure how you give a private body the right to initiate a criminal investigation by the authorities before it is proven (or there is rock solid evidence) that a crime occurred. The PL alleges City did something illegal, but that falls far short of what is needed for the authorities to start investigating.
I think I see what you are saying; if there are years where only PSR is in dispute, those should be quick to adjudicate. But if City counter by saying, well, we have the revenue, look, then it becomes more complex. Again, Everton and Forest cases were quick because they were dead to rights and admitted as such.
Great thread.
The evidence is there in black and white that they were funneling funds from all directions, not to mention the ‘fair value’ of these ‘sponsorships’ around 2010-2014.
Why do so many pundits give pep a free pass in all of this, did he not benefit from inheriting the likes of kompany, silva and aguero amongst other influential players that were all recruited thanks to city financial doping, let's not forget also the behind sides of things that was set up perfectly for him when he arrived from basically having his old barca staff there waiting for him and the youth side of things as well where man City magically had the best facilities and youth players all.of a sudden to also benefit pep.
The problem is the country who owns City don’t have to worry about legal costs. The FA if or when they punish City will be adding up and planning is it even worth it.
City have that much money they could basically sue the FA out of existence and make their lives a nightmare.
The UK government has long been a disgrace so it’s no surprise our institutions are getting sold off to the highest bidder. You literally had a Russian mobster in charge of Chelsea which doesn’t get talked about enough.
Now Chelsea is seen as a respectable club despite the fact they basically cheated for years.
Fair point, which is why I would have focussed on one PSR charge to get that ball moving. I am also not inclined to believe even if the PL prove their case that there will be a followup on any potential cases of fraud here which will only encourage future cooking of the books.
Could not agree more. The UK govt is at fault for allowing these sales to go through in the first place. There needs to be due diligence and instead it became the Wild West. (Not the only govt at fault in this respect)
Now, there are ways to shut down this nonsense going forward. Mandate that all financial statements submitted to the PL to check compliance with PSR, be stamped by HRMC. Because submitting false documentation to the tax authorities IS an actual crime.
It's not foolproof, but it's a step in the right direction. Because how many club accountants would be willing to potentially go to jail and lose their practicing licenses over false statements? I know I wouldn't sign.
At the end of the day, this is just a huge SNAFU by the PL, and despite their half hearted attempts at self regulation, this is why the government needs to introduce the independent regulator.
The infos there “not real”
The infos from a reliable source “found illegally, shouldn’t be allowable”
We’ve set up a panel “we refuse to take their judgement”
It’s in the PL rules you signed up to “nah nah nah (fingers in ears)”
We’ve set up a panel to talk about your lack of cooperation “we don’t like that guy, he’s an Arsenal fan”
Give us the info now “we’re going to court”
The court rejected you, give us the info “we’re appealing”
The court rejected the appeal and effectively said it was abuse of the courts time to have such a frivolous appeal “we might be free the year after next”
Ready now? “we’re busy at the minute”
Prevaricate, lie, prevaricate, work through next legal step, prevaricate. Rinse and repeat.
For all the useless w@nkers (fans, players and that xxxxxx Pep) who say “it’s not fair, it needs sorting, people aren’t taking our achievements seriously, boo hoo hoo….” how about you call the board and owners out and demand they meet with the PL before August and if guilty, you think all the trophies and medals should be given back?
What’s that complete silence I hear…..
Which would make for an interesting situation. City are basically one big PR initiative and there would be significant fallout if this were to happen.
Like many people suspected, the charges against City are being held off because of political reasons.
" The UK government has admitted that its embassy in Abu Dhabi have discussed the 115 charges leveled at Man City by the Premier League, but are refusing to disclose the correspondence because it could risk the UK's relationship with UAE." Source: @PJBuckingham.
So Everton and Forest can be dealt with in a few months, points are deducted and they're forced into a relegation battle but City can continue playing like nothings happened, collect more trophies even with 115 charges against them and if the FA try to do anything the UAE will withhold investment on any UK projects?
Even if 1 of those charges were dealt with this season and 3 points were deducted from City, Arsenal would be Champions now. City have stolen the league again.
If any of the top clubs had some sense they would work together and take the Premier League to court.
" The UK government has admitted that its embassy in Abu Dhabi have discussed the 115 charges leveled at Man City by the Premier League, but are refusing to disclose the correspondence because it could risk the UK's relationship with UAE." Source: @PJBuckingham.
So Everton and Forest can be dealt with in a few months, points are deducted and they're forced into a relegation battle but City can continue playing like nothings happened, collect more trophies even with 115 charges against them and if the FA try to do anything the UAE will withhold investment on any UK projects?
Even if 1 of those charges were dealt with this season and 3 points were deducted from City, Arsenal would be Champions now. City have stolen the league again.
If any of the top clubs had some sense they would work together and take the Premier League to court.
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truly amazing how quickly everton and the others were punished for breaches of FFP....yet City had 115 or whatever the amount was almsot a year ago and fuk all has been done about it
Arsenal deserves the last two PL titles and so do Liverpool for the last few years. Cheating should be punished severely regardless how powerful or connected City's owners are.
Make no mistake about it. This is blatant cheating and it's obvious to everyone. But the organisations with power UEFA, PL and even the UK government have no balls to touch City.
If this is allowed, Lance Armstrong shouldn't be stripped of the titles too if he had a team of strong lawyers and connection to the top people in the country.
Make no mistake about it. This is blatant cheating and it's obvious to everyone. But the organisations with power UEFA, PL and even the UK government have no balls to touch City.
If this is allowed, Lance Armstrong shouldn't be stripped of the titles too if he had a team of strong lawyers and connection to the top people in the country.
Those rules are deemed broken because of the others. So for example, you failed to comply with PSR in season A because you really made X when you said you made Y (This is why City can plead not guilty to a PSR charge). So bringing City up on PSR charge A relies on proof the books are cooked in the same year. Without it City will pass PSR and the PL will look like idiots. The PL's entire PSR argument is "You failed PSR if we take your sponsorships at real value not what you have in the books" and that has to be proven. If all the fraud charges are not established City will pass all the PSR charges too. Using Cities books they have passed PSR, whilst for example, Everton, Forest and Chelseas books all show failing.
That's very much why I feel these charges will be feast or famine so to speak, there'll be no half measures. City will either lose so badly they're expelled or docked 100 points or win so well they'll at most get a non-compliance charges held up, which again they'll argue as "We complied with the committee, just not with the PL because we felt it was biased". Exactly like they did with Uefa and CAS. People cling to this weird myth that everything with CAS was time barred but whilst some stuff was, in a huge amount of issues, Uefa just couldn't prove City were cheating.
I agree its taken too long for what its worth, but I understand why, their are reportedly millions of documents that both sides need to evaluate and go over but again as I said earlier, comparing what happened with Everton or Forest with City is very much like comparing why a theft charge where the thief pleads guilty when questioned way before it reaches court to a murder trial.
By bringing City up on PSR now, the PL would lose heavily and mess up their own case on the "real" charges, which are fraud.
Don't get me wrong I think we're guilty as sin but I think its gonna be harder to make those charges stick than people think. Even Simon Jordan who hates City (and who everyone hates) pretty much said the fact its 115 charges alone feels like the PL throwing shit at a wall and hoping some of it sticks. They should have focused it around "Prove you didn't cook the books". It would have stream-lined the process hugely and they could have come with the lesser stuff afterwards.
City of course have been dragging it out, to find loopholes and build a solid case for themselves.
The major thing the PL have is that the onus of proof is on City this time and not the accuser. Uefa had to prove City guilty, this time City have to prove themselves not guilty as far as I know.
It's also important to understand City don't have to prove themselves innocent to be not guilty, they just have to prove that each charge isn't rock solid, "not established" if you will just like the CAS decision .
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There is no proof of this.
Lance did have lawyers, plenty. The evidence against him (blood results, testimony from former teammates) was rock solid, and he was found guilty, because in real life, lawyers aren't magicians that can make a iron clad case go the other way. Not even the high paid ones.
Hmm... They basically tell UEFA lawyers to feck off due to technicality and whatnot even though the evidences were stacked against them. UEFA suspended them 2 years and left tail between their legs when the case went to a real court.
Everton and Forest cooperated with the investigation
If City get away with this, or are even punished on a small scale, it will be interesting to see what Newcastle do. So far they've been trying to follow the rules and if City get away with it, what stops them from going all in as well? The precedent would have been set already. The Saudi's certainly didn't buy Newcastle to challenge for a Champions League place. Not to mention the Saudi's have alot more power on a global stage than Abu Dhabi do.
That twitter thread is for the most part pure and utter shite really.
For the emails, see CAS judgement p38 A and p68 onwards. The emails were edited and out of context and City submitted the real emails to CAS, which 2 separate individuals testified..
I and I'm no specialist who also thinks City guilty could go through the CAS judgement and prove every bit of that thread wrong myself.
People don't wanna believe what's really right in front of their eyes but City just beat those charges where they had to and were confident of beating the time barred stuff too, they just didn't have to.
CAS also made a point of pointing out in 5.5 million emails, 6 tenuous at best and heavily edited emails City easily bested in court was all the hackers could offer. And every email was admissible (despite what the media say).
My point with this by the way is not to prove innocence or anything, its just people posting stuff like the twitter thread generally have no fecking clue what they are on about, have stuff out of context and what they think is a smoking gun is mere conjecture.
People are like inadmissible email this, time barred that but reality is a lot different.
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Issue here is the CAS panel was a joke (City picked one member, UEFA picked one and then, for a reason no one wants to comment on, City recommended the chairman who will have the deciding vote...so even though it might say the 'majority of the panel', it only means the two guys City chose to be on the panel, versus the one they did not. The UEFA pick was a lawyer who specializes in CAS cases so was an obvious pick for UEFA, the City pick was, as we have come to expect from them, dodgey as sin.
City most likely celebrating a double at the end of the season despite all the accusations / evidence is a farce. No idea why the PL is not pushing harder on this, it will make them look even more stupid
I mean what you posted literally says "There is no suggestion of actual bias on the part of either of City’s nominated arbitrators."
See this is the problem, you guys only wanna see the evidence when it suits your pov. That's not how its going to work. The reality is people are crying bias cause it doesn't suit their view the same way City did with Uefa and the PL, but yet again without any proof.
As of yet there is no proof of any bias in Cities favor and no established proof of City breaking the rules.
In fact City crying bias against UEFA has more credibility given CAS (before the panel who heard the case, described Uefa's behavior as "worrisome") but told City they wouldn't take on the case till post Uefa judgement.
Uefa had every right to argue Rui Santos but felt him impartial. So unless we're implying Uefa brought City up on these charges went balls out to punish them and then decided to work with City during CAS its weird.
Its like City complaining about the current guy overseeing them is Murray Rosen. Uefa could have done the same, no?
Are we saying that Murray Rosen being appointed means there's a bias against City in the current commission? Cause I'd highly doubt it despite City using him as a reason to drag things out and him being an Arsenal club member.
Unfortunately that reply is just lacking common sense. The Guardian doesn't want to be sued by either City or UEFA so what more can it do then point out 2 very irregular instances?
Again, the second part lacks common sense. Question for you, forget it's CAS, forget it's City. A court works through loads of these cases, if in one specific case you have 2 examples of irregularities (recommending the impartial chairman and an arbiter who is quite clearly not impartial) would you just think, that's fine? It's never happened before but whatever?
City have complained about Murray Rosen? You've killed your own point.
Lance Armstrong isn't a state though. City's backers are far bigger than the Premier League. All City needs to do is outlast the Premier League's legal funds.
Yes so the Guardian wouldn't flat out lie cause of the repercussions. 100%. So yeah, they said it was impartial because well it was.
It literally states the guy never worked for anyone at City and again its YOU implying he's not impartial. Because its your bias. Do I think its weird? Yeah, can I prove that it made the commission biased? Just like the Guardian, No.
You misunderstood my point on Rosen given I literally said City objected. Uefa absolutely could have complained against the appointment of Santos, they didn't because they presumed him impartial. It would be quite weird for them to bring all those charges, fight tooth and nail and then be like "Yeah we're cool with 2 of the 3 on the commission being biased towards City".
Considering City fans are supposed to be the ones who are conspiracy theorists, the CAS was rigged is quite a reach from the sensible.
I'm saying that even if Lance Armstrong was a state then Lance Armstrong the state would have lost, because the case against Lance Armstrong the state was so rock solid, that not even infinite lawyers could have won the case for Lance Armstrong the state.
Sovereign states lose cases in courtrooms all the time, against organizations and even private individuals. Being a state provides you with immense advantages when it comes to wealth. Beyond obtaining the best lawyers money can buy, it doesn't change the reality provided by hard evidence. If the PL has said evidence, whatever City are doing are at best delaying the inevitable: a guilty verdict, and the lawyers will just laugh their way to the bank.
Sadly, most city fans have become conspiracy theorists, genuinely believing UEFA and the EPL are working on the behest of 'the elite' to thwart their supposed fairytale.
There is no 'implying', either, they literally assert it outright. Consult 'bluemoon' for proof.
As for this CAS panel, I doubt city completely rigged the game in their favour, but were allowed to influence its construction in an alarming fashion. UEFA's decision not to question the relevant member could be attributed to continued litigation, and the Guardian, who have not attempted any lies, correctly report how suspicious it all is to legal professionals.
The EPL charges are a different matter and we can see, with the application of government lawyers, how city's owners have the power to squeeze their critics.
It's not really about 'lying', they're a newspaper and they report on what's actually happened. They strongly allude to the fact it's a bit dodgey (surely you agree with this?) but that's the limit of that they do.
I am flabbergasted you actually wrote that 2nd para. The guy who chaired the White & Case office in MENA who has those exact clients, you honestly believe has no conflict of interest? You accept it's weird, so there are two weird instances on a panel of 3 and you think it's bias?
You can call me pessimistic but there's no bias here because it makes no sense unless something underhand has happened. Why would UEFA willingly go to all this trouble to then essentially throw the case? Even if they thought Santos was fine, they would go with one of many many other options just in case. We're not dealing with idiots here, it is common sense.
“…people posting stuff like the twitter thread generally have no fecking clue what they are on about”.
Well… cheers.
I just posted it without any opinion or conjecture, but ok.