Vital cogs in a barely functioning system don't usually end up being league leading chance creators. His stats at a PL level blow most other #10s out of the water. The only ones even in consideration are guys like KdB.
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Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 48
- Goals
- 15
- Assists
- 13
- Yellow cards
- 12
- Status
Vital cogs in a barely functioning system don't usually end up being league leading chance creators. His stats at a PL level blow most other #10s out of the water. The only ones even in consideration are guys like KdB.
Because the guy plays a high volume game. Every time he has the ball he feels like he can make a Hollywood attempt at a chance or a shot. It'd be like praising someone for having really high assist numbers in basketball but completely ignoring his turnovers.
The constant comparisons to KDB never make sense and only serve the purpose of setting Bruno up to fail, which is obviously not the intention of it being brought up. De Bruyne is such a clever and dangerous user of the ball, even when he doesn't hit his mark, what he's attempted to do is appreciated and I highly doubt he has an infinite stream of discussions based around his use/mis-use of the ball on any supporter forum. A bad game for KDB does not look like a bad game for Bruno - the reasoning for what KDB is doing is always clear.
The question to ask is if these two were switched, would KDB suddenly become a more wasteful, scattergun player and would Bruno become more cultured and considered and no longer have those questions revolving around why he's forced the play or given a needless turnover with an ill-considered action.
Outside of these two players, is there anyone else even attempting the same volume of probing passes to be in the conversation? KDB obviously gets to try to hit his mark more than most because City have so much of the ball, which generates more opportunities, and him being their chief creator, most openings for that final ball are funelled to him. Bruno has carte blanche to take as many passes of high risk, high reward as he can get his foot around for us. Players like Ødegaard and Maddison play the role with much more focus on interplay, ball-carriage and shorter play-ins, so their numbers aren't going to be as high, but the roundedness of their actions and what they bring to their respective teams should be the contextual base, with both of them being constant thorns over 90 minutes with the potential for a moment thrown into that, as opposed to Bruno, who the crux of these threads always comes down to him being unlikely to do the basics of the position particularly well, whilst having the ability to turn the game with a single action.
Despite his high volume of contributive actions, Bruno gets singled out for his wastefulness and turnovers like no other player in his position in the league. I think he is what he is, and as an actual forward, it'd never be such a large talking point, but when considered on that line between attacking midfielder and a deeper midfielder, it'll always be something that's scrutinised, and so it should be. It can't just be swept under the rug the amount of times an ill-considered pass from Bruno has the whole team on the backfoot. The accumulative turnovers over the course of a season is a lot of legwork that wouldn't be necessary with smarter approach play.
Good point. I'm trying to think of another example. Maybe Rooney's final few seasons.
Nobody is ignoring turnovers. Every single KdB comparison ends up with a mention of their pass completion %. Which is always more or less comparable.
What people do constantly ignore in that comparison is Bruno’s defensive work. I have zero interest basketball so know nothing about the stats they use but assume that players who win the ball back from the opposition get praise?
Do you have any stats at all to prove this criticism is based on fact? Because it gets mentioned all the time and I don’t think I’ve ever seen any.
Getting a bit desperate now, aren't you? It's not like there are several source available where you can compare the players or anything?
He lost the ball 26 times yesterday against Luton fecking Town
He tried to dribble several times and failed all of them, and it was especially annoying when he did it at the end of the match just outside their box. Shocking decision making.Suffering because of Rashford and Garnacho play. They can't play that wide and not offer anything to the team unless they get ball. Fernandes runs to much, covers to much space to even function as a attacking midfielder. He needs help with wide players, not just central midfielders.
I don't think stats are commonly used to frame assertions for attacking players or players setting attackers on their way. Not in the first instance, anyway. I didn't know KDB pass completion numbers were so low before this thread, for example; I also wouldn't know the numbers for Ødegaard or Maddison either, but for all of them, the gauge is what they're trying to do, where they're doing it and how often it compromises the team/teammates.
For my eyes, Bruno frequently takes high risk actions in areas of the pitch where he needn't or shouldn't as opposed to the others who use their ball carriage, or short passing game and then attempt the risky and expansive further up the pitch where they're supposed to, which is why I'll always maintain that in the final third area of the pitch, what Bruno is and does is perfectly fine, but as a midfielder, your care and consideration with the ball becomes a huge factor in assessment. That's where Bruno sticks out like a sore thumb and gets the main body of scrutiny.
But to answer your question specifically; I don't use data for any of them. I don't think the minutiae is particularly important as watching them, you see good and bad parts to their respective games and also the distinction between why one of them is world class and the others aren't.
Barely functioning in the meaning of a relative term. Based on where we are reputation wise, squad wise and expectation wise. There shouldn't be any debate about how good of a team we currently are, especially in terms of freeflowing attacking football.
Understat has us on 11th place xG wise for this season. The seasons before both on 6th. Our output is bad. That surely is also connected with the lack of a striker but I am sure the eyetest tells you, that stuff isn't really working. And this is since quite some time. So while Brunos individual stats look good in many aspects, the team itself doesn't really benefit from it. Plus we see that teams without a player like Bruno are able to generate the same or even better output. So those individual stats shouldn't just be looked at in isolation.
But I'll give you that "barely functioning" wasn't the most precise wording. Even though I am sure most people here would have understood my point.
He shows effort and his effort levels are impeccable. I think though, this defensive work is overstated because apart from his crossing, he isn't the most difficult player to get past. Although I'll give you that this applies to most 10ish players. A thing you also have to see though is the amount of defensive work he is producing with his rushed efforts. Obviously that is always a high risk, high reward kind of thing but every low percentage ball he fires forward will end up in good opportunities for the opponent. Don't get at me "but thats his job". Of course it is but there is a reason why our play looks as frantic as it does. It is a constant back and forth because we often do not sustain possession very well.
And fyi: sofascore has a stat called "possession lost"
I put those values in a table (will never ever do that again...)
| 2023/24 | 2022/23 | 2021/22 | 2020/21 | 2019/20 | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Bruno | 22.4 | 17.5 | 18.3 | 19.5 | 21.6 |
| De Bruyne | 4.0 (very low numbers of minutes) | 16.4 | 16.1 | 18.1 | 20.4 |
| Foden | 11.2 | 9.5 | 11.6 | 9.1 | 5.3 |
| Odegaard | 13.1 | 12.8 | 10.1 | 7.1 | not yet at Arsenal |
| Maddison | 15.1 | 14.1 | 11 | 12 | 17.5 |
| Gross | 14.7 | 14.5 | |||
| JWP | 9.9 | 13.6 | |||
| Paqueta | 17.7 | 13.1 | |||
| Gallagher | 9.8 | 7.5 | |||
| Enzo | 13.4 | 12.3 | |||
| Eze | 15.8 | 11.1 | |||
| Bruno G | 12.1 | 13.0 | |||
| Musiala | 11.7 | 11.4 | |||
| Bellingham | 11.2 | 15.2 (for Dortmund) | |||
| Griezman | 12.4 | 12.3 | |||
| Çalhanoğlu | 9.0 | 10.2 | |||
| Mkhitaryan | 8.5 | 6.9 |
However this stat is measured (and how big the effect of many games played is), it will be measured in the same way for all players so it allows to be looked at. I've marked the ones above 17 in bold to help the point in question which is "Bruno is losing the ball very often". This isn't just something people want to see, but something that is there to be seen.
edit. I bolded all values above 16
If somebody is bothered to check the missing stats for the other players, I'll add them to the table.
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Funny you should choose 17 as your cut off for bold. What a coincidence!
Thanks for digging out though. Looks as though Bruno is losing possession on average between once or twice more per game than KdB (assuming those are per 90?) Which is no difference at all really and certainly not what you’d expect if you listened to the opinions of the Bruno critics in this thread.
It looks as though the two of them do lose the ball more than some of the other players in that table but that’s obviously the price they pay for being so much more productive than them in terms of chance creation.
Maddisson has created only one less big chance this season than Bruno despite giving away possession a lot less.
It is a issue with Bruno. I dont mind when it happens high up the pitch but just in our last match it was right on the edge of our box and led to a luton shot, which they thankfully messed up.
It is a issue with Bruno. I dont mind when it happens high up the pitch but just in our last match it was right on the edge of our box and led to a luton shot, which they thankfully messed up.
I know you would come up with the number
But yes, having it on 16 would make De Bruynes line also pop up more or less completely (I edited my post to circumvent that irritation). But I think it is quite telling that players in comparable positions are on average pretty significantly lower. Their output might be lower due to this but I guess that is the core of the debate we are having around here.Madisson is having a great season. He’s a very good player at a team full of confidence in a run of good form. A bit like Bruno when he first signed for United. He plays for Spurs though. Just like KdB plays for City and Odegaard for Arsenal. These are all very good players, all in different circumstances and with different individual strengths and weaknesses. They are all assets to the teams they play for and would be an asset at any team.
What I will never understand is why some United fans are desperately to convince everyone that Bruno is uniquely detrimental to the team he plays in. When there are far more obvious issues to address if you want to make United a successful team. And I have absolutely no doubt Bruno would look a much better player if we fixed those issues. Hence nobody notices KdB conceding possession almost exactly as often as Bruno does because City are able to win it back within seconds every time that happens, while we have to watch opposition teams tear through our flimsy midfield and defence when we lose possession cheaply.
I struggle to see why people have such an issue with fernandes. I too get frustrated by hid body language at times and his occasional crazy pass, but even yesterday, everything has to go through him for us to look vaguely threatening. He's the one guy i want on the ball in the attacking third these days, and on top of that he works incredibly hard. It truly isn't his fault that we still somehow have a sub par midfield behind him. There comes a point where you just cant call his output 'stat padding.' That might apply to a guy who racks up a handful of goals or assists to mask a poor season, fernandes has been a ridiculously consistent creator and scorer of goals. I think he won't reach a loved status here unfortunately, and will be one of those players that would have been fantastic in a better united team.
Stop making things up. Our best chances yesterday had nothing to do with him.
Ridiculous scorer of goals? Give me a break. He barely scores goals outside penalties.
This might be connected with De Bruyne being better with choosing the moments to go for risky passes. And I think, the detrimental part is, that many fans expect United to play more like the teams on top. Which is more elaborate passing, better use of space, more control. Until today, Bruno hasn't indicated that he would thrive in such a system - he thrives in what we are trying to do, ETH labels it transitional, Ole called it direct and vertical. It happens that Rashford is very similar to Bruno in that respect. And those two made it possible for us to not being forced to improve deeper lying issues. I agree with you though, that some people see him as THE detrimental part is wrong. But I don't think that there aren't many with such a radical position. Consensus seems to be that he is one of the issues and that, right now, he should see the bench from time to time if he isn't performing very well. Just like anybody else.
If you're going to reply quote me, can you please engage like an adult, or don't bother. Your reply as it is just seems like a sort of weird triggered response I want no part of.
Firstly, I said he was a ridiculously consistent creator and scorer of goals. That's goal involvements. You just ignored what I said for what you wanted to react to.
Secondly, and I don't know why I'm bothering here, fernandes has scored 38 non penalty goals for united, including countless key goals, as recently as a week ago. In 4 full seasons, that's in or around 10 non penalty goals a season, which considering his position changing often, and being part of aome very dysfunctional spells at the club, is a good return. So no, he doesn't 'barely score' apart from penalties, but I'm sure loads of people on twitter will agree with you if you want to go post that there. In fact, his non penalty goals is in and around equal to Lampards non penalty goals record with chelsea. the same lampard so often used as the example of a goalscoring midfielder. Also more than Gerrard.
And lastly, I said everything went through him yesterday, which it did. That's not to say he was especially good, but he was the only player quickening things around the box, playing smart passes, and in addition created 2 excellent chances from set pieces. You're doing this cherry picking thing where you want to downplay stats like goals or assists in the big sense, but narrow any talk about yesterdays game down to exactly that, while ignoring his overall impact on the team.
Don't waste my time with nonsense again. If you disagree with something, fine, go for it, but don't include me in any conversation where you aren't prepared to think before you type or engage in even the smallest amount of honestly interpreting a poster's post.
You shouldn't make things up if you want to be taken seriously. You said:
Which couldn't be further from the truth. Our biggest chances were made by Højlund, Rashford, Antony and Reguilon.
Bruno has scored 4, 9, 10, 6 and 2 (so far) non-penalty goals during a PL season, so please explain to me how that is more than Lampard. Lampard has also been delivering in the PL for around 17 full seasons. Gerrard was also primarily a centre midfielder, and not attacking midfielder.
Personally, I thought he had a good game (compared to the rest of his games this season), but that doesn't mean that our attacks went through him. He made a couple decent chances, but had a lot of negative impact on the game as well. For instance, his ridiculous amount of 26 possession losses. Do you realise how much that is, and especially against Luton? Do you not remember him trying to dribble twice and failing to do so, ruining two chances in the process? He creates chances, but he also wastes a lot of chances by lacking essential qualities to be a great midfielder.
Completely agree with this. In reality Bruno probably plays a position that doesn't exist (or at least shouldn't) in modern football as he's most effective playing right behind the striker as almost a 9.5 instead of any sort of conventional "midfield" role. Give him a game that's more transitional and offers more space and he'll thrive (which is why he puts up gaudy stats in international play) but all of his faults are shown when that space shrinks and you don't have nearly the same time on the ball and are needed to play a more connective/structured role.
The KDB comparisons have always been stupid, as anyone with two eyes should be able to watch both players and tell you which is the better footballer
It’s so depressing that this exists as a category now. For the vast majority of my life watching football you would only ever say that about players at the likes of Liverpool or Spurs.
Mata in a ferguson team would have been a sight
you just keep moving the goalposts, accept you were wrong, or at best hyperbolic and move on. Lampard scored 150 non penalty goals for chelsea, over 13 seasons. There's an average of about a goal a season between them. But then you want to change what you said to narrower criteria. When i first mentioned his goal and assist combination, you wanted to change it to goals only. If you cant maintain a point without constantly changing the criteria that makes you right, then it usually means youre wrong. Fernandes doesnt 'barely score' goals that arent penalties. He scored over 100 non penalty goals in his club career, he averages about 1 goal in 3 and a bit games for portugal where he doesnt always take them. You're wrong. It really is that simple
Pass completion % is a silly statistic anyways. Without the context of the types of passes it's practically useless.
A lot of those chances created etc are mainly down to his set pieces.
when things are an going well in games he is brilliant, but when we have to dig deep or fight back etc he is usually one of the first to down tools and constantly moaning at other players when he isn’t doing it himself.
roy Keane used to berate players but he wasnt Telling them to do anything he wasn’t doing himself.
he also needs to step away from free kicks he has only scored two since he arrived and between him and rashford are stopping eriksen hitting them who has minimal opportunities and is a set piece king.
when things are an going well in games he is brilliant, but when we have to dig deep or fight back etc he is usually one of the first to down tools and constantly moaning at other players when he isn’t doing it himself.
roy Keane used to berate players but he wasnt Telling them to do anything he wasn’t doing himself.
he also needs to step away from free kicks he has only scored two since he arrived and between him and rashford are stopping eriksen hitting them who has minimal opportunities and is a set piece king.
I completely disagree there. His effort is consistently among the top in the team.
he makes a couple of wee trackbacks moans a little and fools people. Don’t mean to sound dismissive Watch for next time.
Bruno is an excellent chance creator and I don't think that is debatable. The problem I personally have with him is that he too easy to press on the ball and that him being a smart player knows it too which is why he almost immediately looks to give pass once he gets the ball. If Bruno was more press resistant and had better dribbling it would serve him massively especially in being the metronome this team severely needs.
"couple of wee trackbacks".
Yeah it's really a lot more than that. Anyone can see it.
he makes half hearted track backs he sprints a few yards And then when they get away stops and throws arms up in the air. I didn’t believe it too much when I was first told to watch out for it but notice more and more now looking for it.
Oh get to feck he isn’t carrying anything. He’s no better a player than Onana, Shaw, Martinez, Varane, Casemiro, Eriksen, Rashford. On top of that his performances this season have been poor and haven’t been consistently good since his first season.@zaafi I'm not going into another wall-of-text exchange with you
As always I disagree with most of what you say. No, Bruno is not (at least at the moment) world class, but there is a level between "world class" and "not good enough for the highest level" which seems to be your stance. 2 out of Bruno's 3 biggest weaknesses would be neutralized or almost removed entirely if he played for the likes of City, Barca or Real. And his strengths would further flourish. He'll never be a dribbler, but he wouldn't need to be in a strong team.
And Bruno is absolutely highly rated among neutrals. Look at some of the highest rated comments on Reddit from yesterday:
"Not even Noah had to carry so many animals."
"imagine the trophies he'd have by now if he went anywhere else" <--- Liverpool fan!
" Its wild that he only ever played 2 UCL KO matches."
" If Bruno had went to any other top team he would be seen as one of the top 5 attacking players in the world. The numbers he has put out with this abysmal Man United team is just astonishing."
" Get him on a good team ffs"
That supporters of other teams feel he’s carrying us means nothing as they don’t watch him week in week out. They will see what fanboys see stats and think it means he’s playing well.
Like Gothenburg’s first goal
What are you waffling on about? Bruno has covered more distance than any other player in the Premier League this season.
There's lots of things you can criticise Bruno for and you choose lack of effort!
stats can be some misleading sometime mate. Don’t want to be starting argument or big deal but keep an Eye out for it next time a game not going to well.
How about the context of a player who is consistently in around the top of the list for the most chances created in the league? That surely tells us that the player is attempting lots of risky, difficult to complete passes?
Some stats can be misleading, but even the staunchest cynic of stats wouldn't believe that you can cover more ground than any other player in the Premier League whilst simultaneously showing a lack of effort.
Not applicable to Bruno but iirc Carrick was always one of the players who covered a lot of ground, wasn't he? But his defensive quality was positioning so he rarely sprinted. I think, there are even stats nowadays measuring the time or distance in sprint. I guess Bruno would still be at the top but this would be a scenario, where the distance covered is leading into wrong conclusions.
What I noticed he does is he will spring back and try make a challenge if he is sure he can get there if not he will either foul or stops and throws arms up in area, obviously if someone with lightening pace goes past him be silly to try keep up with him but continue to run back to get in to a position where you can provide support or help.
actually on linekers podcast him and richards were talking about it also so it’s not going unnoticed as much now. When you are a centre midfielder and captain of man United you can’t half ass it and then started pointing fingers and complaining. Roy Keane moaned and shouted when things weren’t good but he was doing what he preached
actually on linekers podcast him and richards were talking about it also so it’s not going unnoticed as much now. When you are a centre midfielder and captain of man United you can’t half ass it and then started pointing fingers and complaining. Roy Keane moaned and shouted when things weren’t good but he was doing what he preached
I know you're keen to downplay any evidence that paints Bruno in a positive light, but "well, I think maybe Carrick statistically covered a lot of ground" has got to be the weakest counter argument I've heard from you.
I don't have the stats to hand from Carrick's years, so I have no idea if you're correctly remembering him topping the PL charts for distance covered (somehow I doubt it), but it's essentially a mute point as we can all agree that Carrick was mint and wasn't accused of a lack of effort.
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