[NZT-One]

A good summary of how important Bruno is for us and how badly we need the other creative players to share the burden. Warning. Contains stats that may break the brains of the most prolific posters in this thread.

Thanks for sharing the article which is very thourough. I have to point out though, that it answers questions, that haven't been asked. I think, the poster Rozay made many attempts to explain that in his current state of course Bruno is vital to our game. Nobody really questions that. The issue we have (and I know not everybody has to agree to that but many do) is that our football sucks and lacks a structure.

My conclusion (again, Rozays posts make a way better effort in doing so) - Bruno is a vital cog in a barely/badly functioning system that hasn't produced anything of note. That isn't all down to Bruno, it also has to do with Rashfords Ronaldo-fication, Antonys and Sanchos failures to hit the ground, Greenwoods case and our fullbacks being constantly under par plus our ongoing midfield woes. But me and quite a few others think, that it comes to the mid- to longterm detriment of the team to block any questioning of Brunos position on the team and whether he can be part of a successful team that plays modern and successful football. Because that is what many people think - maybe the team would be better off relying on players like Bruno and Rashford, who can be fantastic players but seem to flourish in conditions, others in the team do not really flourish in.

Again, this article is basically just illustrating the ongoing debate around here - some emphasize the players importance to us and his immaculate fitness levels while others point out that even with his efforts and output, the team still appears to go nowhere and is partly even behind teams who do not have a player like Bruno on their team.
And just like in many posts here, some aspects of Brunos game (lapses in concentration, defensive contribution (not just pressing but also not being done by dribblers), unneeded possession losses, rushed play and inability to carry the ball) have not been looked at in the article even though they are part of the overall picture.

 

[Scandi Red]

Again, this article is basically just illustrating the ongoing debate around here - some emphasize their importance to us and the players immaculate fitness levels while others point out that even with his efforts and output, the team still appears to go nowhere.

Is that Bruno's fault though? The man's not Messi. There is only so much an individual can do.

If Liverpool had failed to win the CL in 2005 and Gerrard retired without a big trophy, would he then have been a considered a problem? Someone who held Liverpool back? Would there be serious forum posts titled "we will never win anything with Gerrard in the team"? I'm gonna guess no.

Look at how people discuss Bruno on Reddit for instance. The common consensus is that he's been carrying us and has wasted his best years playing for United. People also think that he's a cnut, but that's hardly shocking.

I honestly cannot remember another United player being held in lower regard by United supporters than by neutrals. It's always been the opposite (Carrick, Fletcher and Park being good examples). Then again I'm suspecting that this thread is a weird outlier.

 

[noodlehair]

Thanks for sharing the article which is very thourough. I have to point out though, that it answers questions, that haven't been asked. I think, the poster Rozay made many attempts to explain that in his current state of course Bruno is vital to our game. Nobody really questions that. The issue we have (and I know not everybody has to agree to that but many do) is that our football sucks and lacks a structure.

My conclusion (again, Rozays posts make a way better effort in doing so) - Bruno is a vital cog in a badly functioning system that hasn't produced anything of note. That isn't all down to Bruno, it also has to do with Rashfords Ronaldo-fication, Antonys and Sanchos failures to hit the ground running, Greenwoods case and our fullbacks being constantly under par plus our ongoing midfield woes. But me and quite a few others think, that it comes to the mid- to longterm detriment of the team to not questioning Brunos position on the team.

Again, this article is basically just illustrating the ongoing debate around here - some emphasize their importance to us and the players immaculate fitness levels while others point out that even with his efforts and output, the team still appears to go nowhere. And just like many posts, aspects of his game (lapses in concentration, defensive contribution (not just pressing but also not being done by dribblers), unneeded possession losses, rushed play and inability to carry the ball) have not been looked at even though they are part of the overall picture.

I would probably need to see how Bruno does in a team without the multitude of issues you've listed before coming to the conclusion he would still be an issue.

I can't think of many forward thinking players who aren't frustrating if you expect them to be able to do everything or for everything they try to always come off.

My feeling is in a better team Bruno's assist stats would be ridiculous and the amount of games he helps win would silence a lot of the criticism, because even in an inconsistent and at times awful United side, he will still usually be the one who if he gets on the ball enough will cause the opposition problems.

Also i can't think of many players outside of KDB who you could play there instead and realistically expect an improvement.

 

[zaafi]

Is that Bruno's fault though? The man's not Messi. There is only so much an individual can do.

If Liverpool had failed to win the CL in 2005 and Gerrard retired without a big trophy, would he then have been a considered a problem? Someone who held Liverpool back? Would there be serious forum posts titled "we will never win anything with Gerrard in the team"? I'm gonna guess no.

Look at how people discuss Bruno on Reddit for instance. The common consensus is that he's been carrying us and has wasted his best years playing for United. People also think that he's a cnut, but that's hardly shocking.

I honestly cannot remember another United player being held in lower regard by United supporters than by neutrals. It's always been the opposite (Carrick, Fletcher and Park being good examples). Then again I'm suspecting that this thread is a weird outlier.

By playing Bruno, we're essentially forced to play a certain way of football - a way that brings match winning goals and assists every now and then that add a massive relief, but it also comes with a limit of how good we can be as a team, and it is more reminiscent of a ping-pong match, rather than a football match where we are dominating and in control. Again, this is not only Bruno, but how he plays football, he impacts the game much more than the rest of our players, and he can't play any other way. Not because he doesn't necessarily want to, but because he has a very limited set of skills, and he lacks qualities that are vital to be an effective midfielder that is part of a dominating midfield.

The bolded part, I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Neutrals don't rate Bruno at all, that is the thing. There are only United fans that rate him as this world class midfielder thinking he is irreplaceable.

The best teams don't play with midfielders who rely on a few moments every game to make a positive impact, which is what we're doing, but then again, we're an average mid-table team, so you could actually say he is perfect for us right now. If we want to remain where we are, let us stick with him.

 

[Scandi Red]

@zaafi I'm not going into another wall-of-text exchange with you

As always I disagree with most of what you say. No, Bruno is not (at least at the moment) world class, but there is a level between "world class" and "not good enough for the highest level" which seems to be your stance. 2 out of Bruno's 3 biggest weaknesses would be neutralized or almost removed entirely if he played for the likes of City, Barca or Real. And his strengths would further flourish. He'll never be a dribbler, but he wouldn't need to be in a strong team.

And Bruno is absolutely highly rated among neutrals. Look at some of the highest rated comments on Reddit from yesterday:

"Not even Noah had to carry so many animals."

"imagine the trophies he'd have by now if he went anywhere else" <--- Liverpool fan!

" Its wild that he only ever played 2 UCL KO matches."

" If Bruno had went to any other top team he would be seen as one of the top 5 attacking players in the world. The numbers he has put out with this abysmal Man United team is just astonishing."

" Get him on a good team ffs"

 

[zaafi]

@zaafi I'm not going into another wall-of-text exchange with you

As always I disagree with most of what you say. No, Bruno is not (at least at the moment) world class, but there is a level between "world class" and "not good enough for the highest level" which seems to be your stance. 2 out of Bruno's 3 biggest weaknesses would be neutralized or almost removed entirely if he played for the likes of City, Barca or Real. And his strengths would further flourish. He'll never be a dribbler, but he wouldn't need to be in a strong team.

And Bruno is absolutely highly rated among neutrals. Look at some of the highest rated comments on Reddit from yesterday:

"Not even Noah had to carry so many animals."

"imagine the trophies he'd have by now if he went anywhere else" <--- Liverpool fan!

" Its wild that he only ever played 2 UCL KO matches."

" If Bruno had went to any other top team he would be seen as one of the top 5 attacking players in the world. The numbers he has put out with this abysmal Man United team is just astonishing."

" Get him on a good team ffs"

I mean, you could go on Sky Sports' Facebook page, read the comment section there and you'll find football fans thinking Antony and Maguire are world class. It does not mean they're right. Reddit consists of a large part of the same people who don't really know a lot about football. There are a lot of individuals who think some players are a lot better than what they are, but it does not mean that the general consensus is that Bruno is rated highly by neutral fans. Surely if he was so good, he'd at least be anywhere close to Balon d'Or rankings? I think he was nominated once back in 2021.

You're right, there is a level between world class and "not good enough for the highest level", and Bruno is not at that level. We've seen it time and time again against top teams in PL, Champions League, Europa League, lesser teams in PL and even against Copenhagen recently (although, he was good until Rashford got sent off). Surely you've watched his performances this season? Even some of his most stalwart defenders in this thread want him benched, and agree that these performances are unacceptable, especially for a captain.

Tell me why his biggest weaknesses (and what you think they are) would be neutralized or removed if he played for City, Barca or Real, and elaborate why his strengths would flourish. It seems to me that you're not taking into account how, or why these teams, are dominating as much as they are, or their approach to games. Are you just assuming that - because he created 130 chances for United last season - he would create much more because he would play with better players in City? That's not really how it works, and you know that. Bruno is struggling to create chances to Højlund because he's ineffective in tight spaces. He flourishes for United, against opposition that press us and try to score, and he excels when he has a lot of space to make a pass, and that's why a lot of his chances are made from passing the ball wide to Rashford, or when countering and Rashford made use of the space in the middle when we didn't have a striker. With this in mind, why do you think he would be more effective in a team like City, where opponents sit back and defend most of the time? That is precisely one of Bruno's weaknesses. He struggles to unlock compact defenses, and he doesn't have the dribbling ability, press resistance, strength or calmness to link up with City's midfielders and attackers. They're extreme opposites.

 

[zaafi]

Very good game by him, but he should never be on free-kicks. He is terrible at it.

Please just keep playing like this.

 

[Scandi Red]

Good game. Wild that none of those crosses lead to a goal. Hopefully a turning point for him this season.

 

[arnie_ni]

Hes so good and so frustrating. Too many times he his lack of patience is maddening but it's also those passes that cut teams open.

 

[YSB99]

Mind blowing that there’s people in here who consider that good

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

I’ve never seen a “top player” that lacks so much quality so often.

 

[Idxomer]

Mind blowing that there’s people in here who consider that good

Yep, wasn't good at all apart from a couple of crosses and his workrate was good as usual.

Lost the ball 25 times against the worst team in the league. A playmaker who can't operate in tight areas will never be good enough for a big club.

 

[Scandi Red]

Mind blowing that there’s people in here who consider that good

@zaafi and I never agree and we both thought he did well, so that must count for something!

 

[Shane88]

Why is he allowed on free kicks? There is ample evidence to prove that is shit at them. Stop hogging them and let someone else have a crack.

I feel like I've seen Mount score a few for Chelsea? Let him have a go.

 

[GreatDane]

I've almost stopped getting annoyed when he passes the ball to an opposition player, that's how often it happens.

 

[#07]

Watching Bruno it feels like, in possession, he's struggling to decide when to be careful and when to go for it. There are times when he holds the ball when he should pass. As well as times that he should pass when he holds it. Out of possession has the pressing nailed. With the ball at his feet though, still feels like he's falling between two stools. Also, disturbingly, seems shy to try through balls into the path of Hojlund. Always, always goes wide. Its a new and disturbing habit.

 

[NZT-One]

On the game: I thought he played alright. Feels like is shooting is gone though. How many times has he skyed balls in the last 4 weeks now?

Is that Bruno's fault though? The man's not Messi. There is only so much an individual can do.

Of course it isn't. And when you read my post, you'll find me pointing out many more reasons.

Look at how people discuss Bruno on Reddit for instance. The common consensus is that he's been carrying us and has wasted his best years playing for United. People also think that he's a cnut, but that's hardly shocking.

This is common consensus here too, mate, that is my point. AGAIN: he is one of the most vital cogs of a rather unfunctionaly and unproductive machine. And that he may have wasted his best years with us adds nothing to it. Who knows where we would be without him. We might have went for Maddison or somebody else. Our managers would have tried to go for more dominant approaches instead of counter stuff if that wouldn't have been such an appealing option. Who knows?! Thats the thing with hypothetical scenarios. We might be exactly where we are now. Or Bruno would be regarded just as he is today.

I honestly cannot remember another United player being held in lower regard by United supporters than by neutrals. It's always been the opposite (Carrick, Fletcher and Park being good examples). Then again I'm suspecting that this thread is a weird outlier.

Again, it appears you either don't or do not want to understand the point, that most of the critics want to get across. He is vital for us. He has many qualities. But he has issues connected with him.

I would probably need to see how Bruno does in a team without the multitude of issues you've listed before coming to the conclusion he would still be an issue.

I agree.

My feeling is in a better team Bruno's assist stats would be ridiculous and the amount of games he helps win would silence a lot of the criticism, because even in an inconsistent and at times awful United side, he will still usually be the one who if he gets on the ball enough will cause the opposition problems.

You might be right and the stats would be ridiculous. But there is also the chance, that better teams are better teams because (below other reasons), don't rely on one play with the same characteristics as Bruno. Obviously, this is super difficult to "measure", everybody knows, that United has many issues.

Also i can't think of many players outside of KDB who you could play there instead and realistically expect an improvement.

Me neither. Which is kind of the point. To improve as a team, we have to improve our football as a whole. And chances are, that Bruno won't flourish in a system with the collective in mind. Again, nobody knows for sure but his downsides have been described in my earlier post and nobody can deny that those have effects on a team.

 

[Top]

Very good game by him.

Oh standards have dropped.

 

[zaafi]

Oh standards have dropped.

Indeed. In my defense, I was gaming while watching the match, so I probably only looked at his good bits

I'm usually very critical of him and want him replaced, but from what I saw today, he did better than a lot of the other games this season.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

Indeed. In my defense, I was gaming while watching the match, so I probably only looked at his good bits

I'm usually very critical of him and want him replaced, but from what I saw today, he did better than a lot of the other games this season.

I would say it was a straight 6/10 tbh. Nothing jarringly bad but nothing too impactiful either on the ball besides a couple decent crosses. Pressed well.

Most annoying part was the couple of times he was easily dispossessed when trying to dribble.

 

[M Bison]

All our good attacking moments came via him, we've got much bigger problems than him.

 

[Lyng]

He was very good in the early parts against copenhagen. Today was a really mixed bag and he needs to be taken off free kick duty.

 

[zaafi]

All our good attacking moments came via him, we've got much bigger problems than him.

Well, that's just not true at all. Most of the attacks came from someone else.

Rashford's cross to Højlund that somehow didn't go in.
Maguire's pass to Garnacho when he got a shot off that went a bit over the crossbar.
Højlund's pass to Garnacho where he was pretty much one on one with the keeper, took too long and his shot was blocked by a defender.
Antony's pass to Rashford where he shot directly at the keeper

He did a lot of good today, but praising him for something that didn't happen is just odd.

 

[Borys]

All our good attacking moments came via him, we've got much bigger problems than him.

Really?
Rashford to Hojlund, Hojlund to Garnacho, Lindelof goal - our best chances didn't "came via him".

I still think he should be playing further forward, I don't like him in central areas. He's not so good at passing through lines and hold the ball too long, I prefer Mount quick passing and movement.

 

[M Bison]

Really?
Rashford to Hojlund, Hojlund to Garnacho, Lindelof goal - our best chances didn't "came via him".

I still think he should be playing further forward, I don't like him in central areas. He's not so good at passing through lines and hold the ball too long, I prefer Mount quick passing and movement.

Cant argue with that, maybe i should replace "all" with "almost all"

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Mind blowing that there’s people in here who consider that good

More mind blowing that there’s people who who consider that bad. Although it is predictable. So not really mind blowing, but still…

 

[Borys]

Cant argue with that, maybe i should replace "all" with "almost all"

So which chances came through Bruno? He created a header for McTominay, one of a dozen crosses he launched today. What else I am missing?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I don’t think it was an excellent performance but it was definitely a good performance. Generally used the ball well and put some excellent crosses into the box. Plus all the usual workrate and defensive effort.

Particularly enjoyed a sliding tackle to win the ball back immediately after Garnacho had broken down an attack with a poor decision. The crowd enjoyed that moment too and it kicked off a few minutes where the stadium got noisy, we pinned them back and eventually won the corner from which we scored. He’s a long way short of the likes of Keane and Robson as a captain but that was a proper captain’s moment.

 

[M Bison]

So which chances came through Bruno? He created a header for McTominay, one of a dozen crosses he launched today. What else I am missing?

there was a chance he nearly had and it was cleared before he took the shot and the spin round the corner where he crossed it in along the floor (initial ball from Antony I think?) and they put it out for a corner. They’re the immediate ones that jump out at me.

Appreciate that’s only 2 “chances” but my point is he looked to be our primary creative force/goal scoring threat, in my view.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

there was a chance he nearly had and it was cleared before he took the shot and the spin round the corner where he crossed it in along the floor (initial ball from Antony I think?) and they put it out for a corner. They’re the immediate ones that jump out at me.

Appreciate that’s only 2 “chances” but my point is he looked to be our primary creative force/goal scoring threat, in my view.

Also the cross which McT missed and arrived at Rashford at an awkward height.

 

[Amar__]

If Liverpool had failed to win the CL in 2005 and Gerrard retired without a big trophy, would he then have been a considered a problem?

Funny enough, once Liverpool sold Coutinho they won everything and became better team. Pretty much the same example to yours 10 years later. And 5 years before today.

And everyone(except few of us who thought he is overrated as feck) thought Coutinho is great, and while not the same style, he was exactly the same problem for them as Bruno is for us. He wanted to do everything alone, speeding up attacks, wasting balls through shots and dribbles - same as Bruno does in different style with ridiculous passes and stuff. The year after they sold Coutinho - who was their best most creative player by a mile, had good passing and creative stats as Bruno, but they scored even more goals and conceeded ridiculously small number of goals.

 

[M Bison]

Funny enough, once Liverpool sold Coutinho they won everything and became better team. Pretty much the same example to yours 10 years later. And 5 years before today.

And everyone(except few of us who thought he is overrated as feck) thought Coutinho is great, and while not the same style, he was exactly the same problem for them as Bruno is for us. He wanted to do everything alone, speeding up attacks, wasting balls through shots and dribbles - same as Bruno does in different style with ridiculous passes and stuff. The year after they sold Coutinho - who was their best most creative player by a mile, had good passing and creative stats as Bruno, but they scored even more goals and conceeded ridiculously small number of goals.

possibly one for another thread (?) but I don’t think the scousers actually wanted to sell Countinho at the time did they? Which is why the price they negotiated was so high. So possible unintended consequence.

 

[ti vu]

Good individual brilliance/moment performance, but very erratic team game performance. Still lost possession a lot by rushing things.

 

[Zed is not dead]

Bruno is this season’s De Gea.
De Gea was the one holding us back last season.
It was Ronaldo before that, and Pogba before him. Rashford will be the next one to hold us back.
All these players who once replaced will absolutely transform the way we play.

Does Bruno have weaknesses? Yes. Is he a shite player holding back the team? Absolutely not.

 

[ddg01]

Same old Bruno. Awful, awful x 10. With one
moment of brilliance. Shouldn’t be captain, shouldn’t be starting, shouldn’t be on the bench.

 

[Scandi Red]

Funny enough, once Liverpool sold Coutinho they won everything and became better team. Pretty much the same example to yours 10 years later. And 5 years before today.

I'm gonna ignore the fact that you kind of changed the subject and didn't even attempt to address the point I initially was trying to make...

You're making two (possibly three) huge assumptions in your analysis:

1. You assume that Coutinho was holding Liverpool back all along
2. You assume that Coutinho wouldn't cut it in Liverpool's rebuild (provided they had more money)

Correlation does not equal causation. Which brings me back to my original point: just because Liverpool didn't win the PL with Gerrard in the team it does not mean that Gerrard was holding the team back.

 

[Frank Grimes]

Last 10 minutes he was dreadful. Giving away easy balls when he needed to keep it simple. Infuriating.

 

[Borys]

there was a chance he nearly had and it was cleared before he took the shot and the spin round the corner where he crossed it in along the floor (initial ball from Antony I think?) and they put it out for a corner. They’re the immediate ones that jump out at me.

Appreciate that’s only 2 “chances” but my point is he looked to be our primary creative force/goal scoring threat, in my view.

Also the cross which McT missed and arrived at Rashford at an awkward height.

Those two situations is all that he was heavily involved in. I'm not saying he had a bad game, I thought he was alright in a bit awkward position (I'm not a fan of pushing him away from goal, in fact I think it's a criminal idea), but I just find this notion that everything went through him a bit strange. I mentioned 3 instances (probably highest xG) in which he was not involved at all.

 

[Red in STL]

Is that Bruno's fault though? The man's not Messi. There is only so much an individual can do.

If Liverpool had failed to win the CL in 2005 and Gerrard retired without a big trophy, would he then have been a considered a problem? Someone who held Liverpool back? Would there be serious forum posts titled "we will never win anything with Gerrard in the team"? I'm gonna guess no.

Look at how people discuss Bruno on Reddit for instance. The common consensus is that he's been carrying us and has wasted his best years playing for United. People also think that he's a cnut, but that's hardly shocking.

I honestly cannot remember another United player being held in lower regard by United supporters than by neutrals. It's always been the opposite (Carrick, Fletcher and Park being good examples). Then again I'm suspecting that this thread is a weird outlier.

Actually looking at some of the other player threads it's about par fot the course!

 

[ti vu]

I'm gonna ignore the fact that you kind of changed the subject and didn't even attempt to address the point I initially was trying to make...

You're making two (possibly three) huge assumptions in your analysis:

1. You assume that Coutinho was holding Liverpool back all along
2. You assume that Coutinho wouldn't cut it in Liverpool's rebuild (provided they had more money)

Correlation does not equal causation. Which brings me back to my original point: just because Liverpool didn't win the PL with Gerrard in the team it does not mean that Gerrard was holding the team back.

Stevie Me literally held them back from winning PL with his infamous slip against against Chelsea. They're supposed to have 3 points lead into that game at home, and could take the draw as decent result into the final two games.