[zaafi]

They're also incredibly deflated due to terrible team mates and management. No one creates more chances, big or small, than Bruno.

Context, you know?

You're also not taking into account that he plays much more than De Bruyne, James Maddison and other attacking midfielders so his numbers should be better. If you look at chances per 90, I can't imagine he is far ahead - if even ahead at all.

People love talking about his numbers, but his only really good season was his second, where also 9 of his goals were penalties. What about the last two years? Show me goals/assists for that compared to the rest.

 

[justsomebloke]

Yes, but he is a midfielder. James Maddison got better stats than him over the last two years playing for a Leicester team that got relegated last season.

Yeah, if you conveniently ignore Fernandes' best two seasons, which were the two before that. 20/21, he was second in league scoring. And yeah, he's a midfielder, but that was exactly the point under discussion - that he has mostly been putting up numbers like a good striker. If you compare him to midfielders, his output is unreal. It is also, for what's it's worth, considerably better than Beckham's was in the PL.

And that's not even his strongest point. Chance creation is.

 

[justsomebloke]

You're also not taking into account that he plays much more than De Bruyne, James Maddison and other attacking midfielders so his numbers should be better. If you look at chances per 90, I can't imagine he is far ahead - if even ahead at all.

People love talking about his numbers, but his only really good season was his second, where also 9 of his goals were penalties. What about the last two years? Show me goals/assists for that compared to the rest.

Feel free to look at his chances created per 90 compared to others, and provide some backing for that assumption.

Did I base my argument about how good he is on his record the last two seasons? Why would I? And, you seem to forget his first season, in which he had 8 goals and 7 assists in 14 games.

Seriously man - there's not a reasonable way of looking at or contextualising the stats that will not tell the story that this is a player with a level of offensive impact that is extraordinary. That's bleeding obvious.

 

[zaafi]

Yeah, if you conveniently ignore Fernandes' best two seasons, which were the two before that. 20/21, he was second in league scoring. And yeah, he's a midfielder, but that was exactly the point under discussion - that he has mostly been putting up numbers like a good striker. If you compare him to midfielders, his output is unreal. It is also, for what's it's worth, considerably better than Beckham's was in the PL.

And that's not even his strongest point. Chance creation is.

So you praise players now for what they've done 3 years ago?

His output is like a forward's because he's scored a lot of penalties. What's hard to grasp? If he wasn't on penalties, he wouldn't have anywhere near those numbers.
Very few midfielders take penalties for their teams, so why do you think it's fair to compare his output to De Bruyne or Maddison? Despite taking our penalties, he is still behind them.

Talking about 8 or 9 assist as if they're insane numbers.

 

[justsomebloke]

So you praise players now for what they've done 3 years ago?

His output is like a forward's because he's scored a lot of penalties. What's hard to grasp? If he wasn't on penalties, he wouldn't have anywhere near those numbers.
Very few midfielders take penalties for their teams, so why do you think it's fair to compare his output to De Bruyne or Maddison? Despite taking our penalties, he is still behind them.

Talking about 8 or 9 assist as if they're insane numbers.

1. Er, you are seriously arguing that we should discuss a player's general level and quality considering only the last two seasons - no more, no less? Based on what, exactly? Although it would conveniently suit your conclusion to do so.

2. That his output is like a forward's because he's scored a lot of penalties is absurd. Above all because quite a lot of forwards - and especially the big scoring ones - also have a lot of penalty goals, but also because about two thirds of his PL goals are not penalties.

3. This is evidently a difficult concept to grasp, but again, the whole discussion you're weighing into here was about Fernandes scoring, mostly, like a good striker. Also, where did I say his output was better than KDB or Maddison's? Also, if he's no better than them, does that contradict the idea he's an exceptional offensive contributor?

4. If you consider performance since the season Bruno arrived, Maddison's output over that period is significantly lower than Bruno's - 0.56 per game, compared to Bruno's 0.64 per game. If you consider only assists, he's still ahead - 0.33 to 0.27.

De Bruyne has in 109 PL games over the past four seasons (+ the current one), with 45 goals (of which only 3 on penalties) and 56 assists. This is obviously considerably better than Bruno, however you account for penalties. But then he is clearly the best #10 in the PL during that period, and probably in the world. Which I've never argued otherwise.

And again - scoring output is not actually the main reason he's a great player, although it certainly helps - chance creation is. KDB is ahead of him in that category too, but Maddison is nowhere close.

It's interesting to see his "big chances created" output in conjunction with his goals and assists output, because that tells a more consistent story about overall impact than either of them does on their own - and also about a shifting role in the team.

His 14-game debut season (19/20) was his best scoring season, on a per game basis. It was also by far his weakest big chance creation season (0.21 pg). The following season (when we finished second), he greatly increased impact in big chance creation (to 0.57 pg), while his G+A output dropped somewhat (from 1.07 to 0.86). Unsurprisingly, our horrific 21/22 season saw his output dip in both areas - especially g+a (to 0.46), but also big chance production (to 0.41). Last season, his g+a output remained about the same (0.43), but his big chances creation not merely rebounded, but reached his best levels yet: a whopping 0.87 per game. Almost exactly twice Maddison's level in chance creation (although below KDB, as it has been throughout). Given our grave inability to convert our opportunities that season, that probably cost him quite a few assists.

In short - his role has evolved fairly dramatically since he came in. That first half season, he basically did it all himself. By now, he is a much more integrated player who's contribution centres less on goals and assists and more on what he creates for others.

 

[Scandi Red]

You're also not taking into account that he plays much more than De Bruyne, James Maddison and other attacking midfielders so his numbers should be better. If you look at chances per 90, I can't imagine he is far ahead - if even ahead at all.

If we look at chances created per 90 he's still ahead of De Bruyne, though just barely. And he's far ahead of Maddison and Ødegaard.

You can twist and turn all you all you like, but Bruno is practically unmatched when it comes to chance creation. Only De Bruyne comes close in the top leagues. And De Bruyne has been the best attacking midfielder in the world for many years and is already being compared to the likes of Scholes, Gerrard and Lampard. Being behind him is no shame.

 

[El Jefe]

So is Bruno. They're just different kinds of player. Also, he's flat out better than several names on that list. Beckham, for example.

a good game against Forest and we get stuff like this.

Bruno shits the bed way too much in big games to be compared to Becks.

That is the difference between Bruno and our legends. Its all well and good having great stats but I couldn't tell you a memorable or meaningful game from Bruno.

What is Bruno's version of the Pogba game at City or Berbatov's hattrick vs Pool. Not saying they were better than Bruno because of one off games but the likes of Giggs, Rooney, Becks etc have many memorable performances. That is where greatness is achieved IMO.

 

[justsomebloke]

a good game against Forest and we get stuff like this.

Bruno shits the bed way too much in big games to be compared to Becks.

That is the difference between Bruno and our legends. Its all well and good having great stats but I couldn't tell you a memorable or meaningful game from Bruno.

What is Bruno's version of the Pogba game at City or Berbatov's hattrick vs Pool. Not saying they were better than Bruno because of one off games but the likes of Giggs, Rooney, Becks etc have many memorable performances. That is where greatness is achieved IMO.

Oh come on, do try to be serious. On the one hand you are, against all reasonable reading, assuming that people are now fawning over Fernandes because of the Forest game. On the other, you're arguing a lack of "memorable" individual game performances (such as f.e. the Forest game?) means he's not really a great. Self-contradiction aside, you are in effect complaining that Bruno, playing for an also-ran side, has been failing to provide you with as many great memories as players who were playing for a side that challenged for the title every season and often won it? Some criterion.

 

[zaafi]

Oh come on, do try to be serious.

I'd like you to tell me big games where Bruno has been tremendous. Was it maybe the 7-0 thrashing where he begged to come off? He is insanely good at creating chances and initiating counter attacks with his long passing and he works extremely hard, but it stops there.

 

[zaafi]

If we look at chances created per 90 he's still ahead of De Bruyne, though just barely. And he's far ahead of Maddison and Ødegaard.

You can twist and turn all you all you like, but Bruno is practically unmatched when it comes to chance creation. Only De Bruyne comes close in the top leagues. And De Bruyne has been the best attacking midfielder in the world for many years and is already being compared to the likes of Scholes, Gerrard and Lampard. Being behind him is no shame.

Not only has De Bruyne been one of the top attacking midfielders in the world, but he has been one of the best midfielder in the world. The difference between him and Bruno is that with Bruno you lose a lot of balance and crucial things you need in midfield to control matches. Bruno lacks so much, but is world class at creating chances.

Maybe playing Bruno in midfield would be fine if we had a proper team but for all of his big chances and chance creating, it almost never amounts to anything. Not his fault all the time, but what's the point if goals barely come out from it?

 

[justsomebloke]

I'd like you to tell me big games where Bruno has been tremendous. Was it maybe the 7-0 thrashing where he begged to come off? He is insanely good at creating chances and initiating counter attacks with his long passing and he works extremely hard, but it stops there.

Do you? Okay then. Give me a usable working definition of "big games" and "tremendous".

 

[justsomebloke]

Not only has De Bruyne been one of the top attacking midfielders in the world, but he has been one of the best midfielder in the world. The difference between him and Bruno is that with Bruno you lose a lot of balance and crucial things you need in midfield to control matches. Bruno lacks so much, but is world class at creating chances.

Maybe playing Bruno in midfield would be fine if we had a proper team but for all of his big chances and chance creating, it almost never amounts to anything. Not his fault all the time, but what's the point if goals barely come out from it?

....what's the point in creating big scoring chances? Seriously?

 

[roonster09]

Maybe playing Bruno in midfield would be fine if we had a proper team but for all of his big chances and chance creating, it almost never amounts to anything. Not his fault all the time, but what's the point if goals barely come out from it?

Must be one of the dumbest thing posted on caf.

 

[zaafi]

Must be one of the dumbest thing posted on caf.

You say that about everything so not really bothered.

 

[Scandi Red]

Bruno lacks so much,

I mean he doesn't, but whatever...

The way I see it there are 4 types of attacking midfielders:

1. Versatile strikers who drop deep (Rooney circa 2011-2013)
2. Central midfielders with attacking weapons (Ødegaard)
3. Chance creators (Bruno)
4. The complete package (De Bruyne)

Number 1 is practically a dead role these days, which is good because Rooney's lack of creativity used to frustrate me. Number 4 is exceptionally rare (huge credit to De Bruyne), so if we're being realistic we have to pick between role 2 and 3. For me the answer will always be number 3. If you gave me the choice between a player who needlessly loses possession 3 times but creates 3 chances and a player who needlessly loses possession once and creates one chance, then I pick the former any day of the week.

What all roles have in common is that they must press well and work hard. Bruno is better than De Bruyne and Ødegaard in that respect, so you can't fault him there.

I agree that Bruno could take fewer risks and be better at keeping the ball under pressure. But you're deluding yourself if you think that you can find someone who creates as much as him without any of the flaws. They are exceptionally rare.

 

[zaafi]

....what's the point in creating big scoring chances? Seriously?

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that instead of playing Bruno, whose job is to create scoring chances, we could play an all-round midfielder ala Bruno Guimaraes to provide balance, actual defensive ability and with good passing. We're struggling in midfield every single game, so why do we persist with the same?

We don't play with a striker and most of our players have shit finishing, so we're not playing with - or - to Bruno's strengths, so we're effectively wasting a midfielder.

 

[roonster09]

You say that about everything so not really bothered.

This really is.

 

[zaafi]

I mean he doesn't, but whatever...

The way I see it there are 4 types of attacking midfielders:

1. Versatile strikers who drop deep (Rooney circa 2011-2013)
2. Central midfielders with attacking weapons (Ødegaard)
3. Chance creators (Bruno)
4. The complete package (De Bruyne)

Number 1 is practically a dead role these days, which is good because Rooney's lack of creativity used to frustrate me. Number 4 is exceptionally rare (huge credit to De Bruyne), so if we're being realistic we have to pick between role 2 and 3. For me the answer will always be number 3. If you gave me the choice between a player who needlessly loses possession 3 times but creates 3 chances and a player who needlessly loses possession once and creates one chance, then I pick the former any day of the week.

What all roles have in common is that they must press well and work hard. Bruno is better than De Bruyne and Ødegaard in that respect, so you can't fault him there.

I agree that Bruno could take fewer risks and be better at keeping the ball under pressure. But you're deluding yourself if you think that you can find someone who creates as much as him without any of the flaws. They are exceptionally rare.

So why do we need to play with an attacking midfielder?

 

[justsomebloke]

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that instead of playing Bruno, whose job is to create scoring chances, we could play an all-round midfielder ala Bruno Guimaraes to provide balance, actual defensive ability and with good passing. We're struggling in midfield every single game, so why do we persist with the same?

We don't play with a striker and most of our players have shit finishing, so we're not playing with - or - to Bruno's strengths, so we're effectively wasting a midfielder.

Because we're not good at scoring goals, it's a waste to bother trying?

 

[Greck]

Bruno for my money is easily one of the best footballers we’ve ever had at the club. Wouldn’t look out of place in any of our great teams.

Saying Scholes or Carrick etc are miles better is just not true. Bruno has consistently performed near their regular standards basically since he joined.

He’s been a United great but sadly played for us in the down time so gets more dirt thrown at his skillset.

Try playing Scholes next to McTomminay for a season…

Would expose Scholes weakness badly playing a pivot with someone who doesn’t shield a defence well.

It’s all about your teammates end of the day not just talent.

Please don't compare Bruno to Scholes again. I can't think of more polar opposites The best CMs have a level of consistency over an entire game that we're asking Bruno to achieve.

This also criminally misunderstands the point. It's not talking about defensive-offensive balance, it's talking about a player forcing a team to look for skills they should already have, help with, or at the very minimum not be detrimental to. Of course Mctominay's ideal partner would be Kante, every limited player's idea partner is someone who does their job or carries the role they should be helping with. Bruno's job isn't jsut stats, in fact by world class standards he's notoriously poor over the course of a game.

edit: Point was Bruno's skillset doesn't help team consistency, may even be detrimental to and he needs to improve on that.

 

[zaafi]

Because we're not good at scoring goals, it's a waste to bother trying?

No. I just think we should switch our midfield approach. We shouldn't be relying on one player to create chances when it results in us losing our balance and control in midfield.

 

[Greck]

This obsession with Bruno not being the type of player some people think a #10 has to be is just tunnell vision in my view, missing the bigger picture. The man has been creating big chances more than any other player in the PL, and he's been doing it consistently for more than 4 seasons. For most of that period he's also been putting up goals and assists like a good striker. He works his butt off all across the pitch, is captain and plays virtually every game. Clearly a player who can do that isn't holding this team back.

It's false equivalence to think volume and efficiency are polar opposites. Contrary to myth peddled we we don't have to choose one and one doesn't absolve the other. To become a winning team we need our players to become more consistent over 90 minutes. Getting an assist then crapping the bed for 60 minutes isn't world class play or winning football. Right now we can't even impose ourselves on midtable teams with a man disadvantage and it's getting tiresome pretending the common denominators don't play a role in that.

 

[flappyjay]

Game sees game

 

[justsomebloke]

Please don't compare Bruno to Scholes again. I can't think of more polar opposites The best CMs have a level of consistency over an entire game that we're asking Bruno to achieve.

This also criminally misunderstands the point. It's not talking about balance, it's talking about a player forcing a team to look for skills they should already have, help with, at the very minimum not detrimental to. Of course Mctominay's ideal partner would be Kante, every limited player's idea partner is someone who does their job or carries the role they should be helping with. Bruno's job isn't jsut stats, in fact by world class standards he's notoriously poor over the course of a game.

I must admit I'm struggling to even understand what your point is supposed to be here. You're complaining that his performance level varies too much inside the space of a single game? If so, I'm not sure how you'd really measure or judge that, or what you're comparing it with. Generally speaking, I must say it's not my impression that top players usually have a fairly even impact across the course of a game. Particularly not creative attacking players, who in the nature of things are more reliant on what others around them do or don't do. I'd also say his performance level strikes me as unusually consistent, certainly by the standards of our team.

 

[justsomebloke]

It's false equivalence to think volume and efficiency are polar opposites. Contrary to myth peddled in this thread and this thread alone we don't have to choose one and one doesn't absolve the other. To become a winning team we need our players to become more consistent over 90 minutes. Getting an assist then crapping the bed for 60 minutes isn't world class play or winning football.

"crapping the bed for 60 minutes"? As if Bruno does that.

 

[zaafi]

Do you? Okay then. Give me a usable working definition of "big games" and "tremendous".

Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, City, CL, EL semi final/finals.

Tremendous as in he's had big impact throughout the game and not just invisible for 80 min then show up with an assist in the end.

 

[justsomebloke]

No. I just think we should switch our midfield approach. We shouldn't be relying on one player to create chances when it results in us losing our balance and control in midfield.

...and that would make us score more goals? I mean, if it was correct that we're relying on one player to create chances (we aren't) and that we're losing balance and control in midfield because of Bruno (which in my view isn't correct either).

 

[justsomebloke]

Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, City, CL, EL semi final/finals.

Tremendous as in he's had big impact throughout the game and not just invisible for 80 min then show up with an assist in the end.

That's a lousy definition of big games, and no definition at all for tremendous. Just moves the question along to define "big impact throughout the game".

I have no idea what would make you feel someone had "a big impact throughout the game". But considering you seem to think BF is the sort of player who gets an assist and is otherwise invisible for 80 minutes, I doubt it matters much whatever that is, because you obviously aren't paying as much attention to what you're watching as you should.

I will say this though. I'm a nerdy enough football watcher that my default mode when watching United is to keep a running mental tally of notably good and bad involvements by each United player, throughout the game. If you ask me "which recent United players are liable to not really register much in either category through long stretches of a game?", then my first thoughts would be Marcel Sabitzer and Raphael Varane. Then I'd probably think of Diogo Dalot and Marcus Rashford. All in different ways - Varane because he's more about being in the right place at the right time and keeping things simple and functional, Rashford because he's the sort of player whose impact tends to revolve around a small number of crucial situations, Dalot because he often simply isn't very much involved, Sabitzer because he rarely made mistakes or did non-routine things with the ball.

Probably the last name that would come to mind is Bruno Fernandes, who almost never have games where he isn't one of our most involved players. There's always some bad involvements with him, but there are invariably more good ones. And it'd be a rare 15 minutes where he didn't really figure much. It'd be an even rarer 15 minutes where United managed to put together a good attacking pressure without him being much in evidence. Which you cannot really say for any other United player, except possibly Casemiro.

 

[zaafi]

...and that would make us score more goals? I mean, if it was correct that we're relying on one player to create chances (we aren't) and that we're losing balance and control in midfield because of Bruno (which in my view isn't correct either).

Control in midfield results in more chances, yes, of course. Not really sure how you can argue otherwise.

Rashford created 28 chances for a winger last year, Sancho around 30 and Antony way less. Of course we rely on Bruno to create.

 

[Greck]

I must admit I'm struggling to even understand what your point is supposed to be here. You're complaining that his performance level varies too much inside the space of a single game? If so, I'm not sure how you'd really measure or judge that, or what you're comparing it with. Generally speaking, I must say it's not my impression that top players usually have a fairly even impact across the course of a game. Particularly not creative attacking players, who in the nature of things are more reliant on what others around them do or don't do. I'd also say his performance level strikes me as unusually consistent, certainly by the standards of our team.

Point if you're still unsure is Bruno's skillset at his position (imo) may even be a detriment to achieving team (and even winning consistency at the higher levels). We can't complain about being a moments team then champion the biggest culprits. To an extent our best players play a role in this and we will eventually have to consider need a makeover of their side of the squad.

 

[justsomebloke]

Point if you're still unsure is Bruno's skillset at his position (imo) may even be a detriment to achieving team (and even winning consistency at the higher levels). We can't complain about being a moments team then champion the biggest culprits. To an extent our best players play a role in this and we will eventually have to consider need a makeover of their side of the squad.

And your argument supporting that Bruno is the one who disappears in the big moments is what, exactly?

 

[zaafi]

And your argument supporting that Bruno is the one who disappears in the big moments is what, exactly?

By watching the match? It is not exactly a secret that he does.

 

[justsomebloke]

By watching the match? It is not exactly a secret that he does.

No, sorry - this is just you and Greck claiming that this is how it is. I for one flatly disagree that this is how it is. Having watched the matches.

 

[justsomebloke]

Control in midfield results in more chances, yes, of course. Not really sure how you can argue otherwise.

Rashford created 28 chances for a winger last year, Sancho around 30 and Antony way less. Of course we rely on Bruno to create.

OK, so, we rely on Bruno to create, and yet removing him from our midfield is going to bring us more goals?

 

[zaafi]

No, sorry - this is just you and Greck claiming that this is how it is. I for one flatly disagree that this is how it is. Having watched the matches.

I mean, take a look in this thread and tell me again it's just the two of us. @Rozay has even dedicated a thread to him how we're never going to win the league with him, and it's very true. What has he ever won? He is a moments player and if he does not get his moments, he's useless.

OK, so, we rely on Bruno to create, and yet removing him from our midfield is going to bring us more goals?

Replacing him, not removing him. Do you not think we would be a better team overall if we had control in the midfield rather than whatever it is we do now?

 

[Marwood]

I mean, take a look in this thread and tell me again it's just the two of us. @Rozay has even dedicated a thread to him how we're never going to win the league with him, and it's very true. What has he ever won? He is a moments player and if he does not get his moments, he's useless.



Replacing him, not removing him. Do you not think we would be a better team overall if we had control in the midfield rather than whatever it is we do now?

Do you think one player can make the difference between controlling a game or not?

 

[zaafi]

Do you think one player can make the difference between controlling a game or not?

It can certainly help when one is a box-to-box and the other is purely attacking. Do you think we would control a game more if we had Ødegaard instead of Bruno?

 

[Chief123]

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that instead of playing Bruno, whose job is to create scoring chances, we could play an all-round midfielder ala Bruno Guimaraes to provide balance, actual defensive ability and with good passing. We're struggling in midfield every single game, so why do we persist with the same?

We don't play with a striker and most of our players have shit finishing, so we're not playing with - or - to Bruno's strengths, so we're effectively wasting a midfielder.

So I’m guessing you are saying we should just play for 0-0s rather than create goal scoring chances. You do know the idea is to score goals to win?

 

[zaafi]

So I’m guessing you are saying we should just play for 0-0s rather than create goal scoring chances. You do know the idea is to score goals to win?

So how are teams that don't play with a player like Bruno able to create chances after chances and dominate games? It's as if some of you believe every team needs a Bruno to succeed, when it's the opposite.

 

[Champ]

So how are teams that don't play with a player like Bruno able to create chances after chances and dominate games? It's as if some of you believe every team needs a Bruno to succeed, when it's the opposite.

City have creative players like KDB in their team, Arsenal have Odegaard, I pick them out as they are the teams I'd say are similar to United in terms of style and how we want to play.
They have that one player who is capable of a bit of magic and will try things no other player will. They are allowed that little bit of freedom, which doesn't always come off but when it does makes the difference.

Bruno is a game changer, a match winner, history and stats have proven that.