[RedSky]

Without Bruno our attack would be relegation standard. Since the cup final he's our joint top scorer and the player with the most assists (league stats).

It's fair cop complaining about the guy if there was someone else being unfairly benched. But there isn't. Who could do better?

 

[Lyng]

Without Bruno our attack would be relegation standard. Since the cup final he's our joint top scorer and the player with the most assists (league stats).

It's fair cop complaining about the guy if there was someone else being unfairly benched. But there isn't. Who could do better?

I dont think we can make a current starting 11 that would be good without him.
Part of that is also why I think Ten Hag has given up on the whole Ajax thing, because Bruno would never work in that kind of team, but at the same time he is our most creative player and is always fit.
With our current squad you have to play Bruno, and thus tailor your setup around him.

Which is also why the whole "hater" comment is tiring. There are people who hate Bruno, but most I see are giving valid criticism about his attitude, and some of his flaws. Mostly because they want that to get ironed out so we get the best version of him, precisely because we are so reliant on him.

The bigger question comes when Ratcliffe comes in as he seems to dislike Bruno, based on his book.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I dont think we can make a current starting 11 that would be good without him.
Part of that is also why I think Ten Hag has given up on the whole Ajax thing, because Bruno would never work in that kind of team, but at the same time he is our most creative player and is always fit.
With our current squad you have to play Bruno, and thus tailor your setup around him.

Which is also why the whole "hater" comment is tiring. There are people who hate Bruno, but most I see are giving valid criticism about his attitude, and some of his flaws. Mostly because they want that to get ironed out so we get the best version of him, precisely because we are so reliant on him.

The bigger question comes when Ratcliffe comes in as he seems to dislike Bruno, based on his book.

Yeah he would. Like for like replacement for Tadic.

 

[justsomebloke]

You keep saying he had a much better stat completion when he didnt?? 88% against Chelsea and 85% against Bournemouth. How you get that to a much better pass completion in the Bournemouth game is something else.
And that XG is quite significant, since if he created the same amount of chances and was the one creating the most, and then at the same time our XG was significantly worse, clearly those chances can not have been as good.

Please do read above clarifications. Those percentages omit crosses. With them, the percentages are as stated. And even the percentages as you quote them do not support your point that he had a world class game against Chelsea and the exact opposite against Bournemouth.

Big chances? Well, according to Sofascore he had 1 against Chelsea and 0 against Bournemouth. Not sure what you'd read into that, but I'm pretty sure the difference between the 4.1 xG against Chelsea and 1.1 against Bournemouth isn't down to that one chance.

Sorry mate, but on this one you need to pack it in.

 

[Lyng]

Yeah he would. Like for like replacement for Tadic.

Tadic wouldnt work in that system in the Premier League either. You can use a player like that in that way in a league where you get more space. Not in the Premier League. Or well thats my opinion at least.
I will completely agree with you that they are very similar in style though, allthough I rate Bruno much higher.

 

[Lentwood]

It’s the constant things like this that feed into the idea that, maybe, Erik ten Hag isn’t quite the tactical mastermind we were expecting. The same tactical misgivings happen again and again and have been for the entire 18 months he’s been here.

Yeah it's baffling. It's not like we're dealing with a young player here. We're talking about an established international footballer who consistently leads the Premier League rankings for "chances created" and who has previously posted phenomenal numbers for 'goal involvements'.

Here we are with that player making tackles by the corner flag and floating passes into midfield.

 

[Lyng]

Please do read above clarifications. Those percentages omit crosses. With them, the percentages are as stated. And even the percentages as you quote them do not support your point that he had a world class game against Chelsea and the exact opposite against Bournemouth.

Big chances? Well, according to Sofascore he had 1 against Chelsea and 0 against Bournemouth. Not sure what you'd read into that, but I'm pretty sure the difference between the 4.1 xG against Chelsea and 1.1 against Bournemouth isn't down to that one chance.

Sorry mate, but on this one you need to pack it in.

I will need to watch the matches again. I have to accept the stats tell a very different story.

 

[THE ZOL]

Convinced he deliberately got himself carded so to miss the Liverpool game.

Me too.

It's all joke anyway, an inconsistent culture due to a manager in a job that's too big for him. Like the Captain's armband for Bruno.

Me three. Wasn’t it something ridiculously cowardly as well like dissent to the ref when we were already 3-0 down?

 

[Rozay]

Without Bruno our attack would be relegation standard. Since the cup final he's our joint top scorer and the player with the most assists (league stats).

It's fair cop complaining about the guy if there was someone else being unfairly benched. But there isn't. Who could do better?

I think you are correct. We’d be undoubtedly worse without him. You could say that we’d be relegation standard, and perhaps you are right. I think the argument from the other side is that with him, we won’t be title winning standard. We’d be worse without him indeed, but we’ve also never been good enough with him either, so the fact is we are still searching for the ‘good enough’ formula. And there in lies the debate. I think at its best, we’d qualify for the Champions League. If that is our ultimate ambition, then he’s the man. I just don’t think he’s the man for the level above that. It’s more a case of the football that accentuates his strengths is good but not good enough IMO, and the football that exposes his weaknesses is unfortunately the type that will help us take the next step.

 

[justsomebloke]

This is the current conundrome isn't it? And probably the reason, why so many in the debate seem to have such polarized positions. It is possible to want a players role changed (or even gone) while acknowledging how important he is to you.


I see your point and you are right, overall result will influence perception of an individual performance to a degree. But your premise in this debate is faulty to a degree because you act as if the fbref stats are a 1:1 "translation" of the game into numbers. Which it isn't necessarily. Don't get me wrong, I am not going to dismiss those numbers at all but obviously there are still things on the pitch, that aren't measured yet or ever will be. Like attempted long balls with low percentage, number of rushed decisions, perceived frustration levels and so on. Obviously - such factors are tricky to handle but they are part of the game just like the ones, that are measured right now. Which by the way is way more than what was measures 10 years ago or even 20 years ago.

If you thought, he had a good game, that is fine. Everybody deals with his own biases, what I can tell you is (and that seems to be the case with other posters), that his outing against BOU was frustrating to me because we have seen a typical "It's not going well"-Bruno performance in the last 30minutes. Hitting Hollywood passes, losing battles in midfield and so on. And it isn't just posters around here, iirc Neville was critical of him, Scholes is often critical I'd be shocked if he weren't last weekend. Same applies for McKola or UnitedPeoplesTV, at least the 2nd usually a big fan of the player from what I know. And it isn't just them, I follow a few Uniteds fan channels and most of them noted him as having a rather bad game. Not saying those people are the be all and end all, but it sets a little context.

Just saying it is overall frustration and agendas isn't going to cut it. Chelsea was disorganized, we seemed really up for it, against the Blues we pressed very differently then we did against BOU with more or less the front six playing very high most of the time. It was a very different match and while I would agree, that it is probably next to impossible to use a measure of good or bad to sum up a performance in a way that is accepted by many different people in a fan community, I think, your reasoningis not as solid as (you appear to) think.

Of course I don't. I've been clear from the beginning that I think Bruno didn't have a bad one, from watching the game. Not a great one either, just a pretty good one. I have only brought stats into it for the light they can throw on the specific claims by those who think otherwise about what specifically they disapproved of. Of course stats are not a direct measure of everything and you can argue a lot of things, but you bloody well can't argue that compared to the previous game he was just hoofing it given those figures. It's just nonsense.

 

[zaafi]

Please do read above clarifications. Those percentages omit crosses. With them, the percentages are as stated. And even the percentages as you quote them do not support your point that he had a world class game against Chelsea and the exact opposite against Bournemouth.

Big chances? Well, according to Sofascore he had 1 against Chelsea and 0 against Bournemouth. Not sure what you'd read into that, but I'm pretty sure the difference between the 4.1 xG against Chelsea and 1.1 against Bournemouth isn't down to that one chance.

Sorry mate, but on this one you need to pack it in.

If you're going by stats, then yeah, those performances are similar, but if you watched the games seperately, you'll see quite easily one is a very good performance, and the other is very bad. Everyone can see it (unless you're Pogue who thinks every Bruno performance is a divine one) no matter what the stats tell you.

It's not just about amount of chances created, tackles, passes etc. It's about how he links up with other players, when, how and quick he makes decisions that put the opposition defenders out of play, and passes that happen just before a chance is created in which he does not get credited the chance. Statistics that don't get shown.

He was involved in most of our build-up play against Chelsea in ways he usually don't, and he created genuine chances (or passes that led to chances), something he didn't do against Bournemouth, but for some reason, stats will tell you he created 6 chances against Bournemouth and 5 against Chelsea. Ridiculous. Can you tell me one chance he created against Bournemouth that you saw with your own eyes?

 

[justsomebloke]

If you're going by stats, then yeah, those performances are similar, but if you watched the games seperately, you'll see quite easily one is a very good performance, and the other is very bad. Everyone can see it (unless you're Pogue who thinks every Bruno performance is a divine one) no matter what the stats tell you.

It's not just about amount of chances created, tackles, passes etc. It's about how he links up with other players, when, how and quick he makes decisions that put the opposition defenders out of play, and passes that happen just before a chance is created in which he does not get credited the chance. Statistics that don't get shown.

He was involved in most of our build-up play against Chelsea in ways he usually don't, and he created genuine chances (or passes that led to chances), something he didn't do against Bournemouth, but for some reason, stats will tell you he created 6 chances against Bournemouth and 5 against Chelsea. Ridiculous. Can you tell me one chance he created against Bournemouth that you saw with your own eyes?

For the umpteenth time, I am not making an argument based on stats. I'm giving you the view I formed watching the game. It's as hard to understand for me how you can watch that game and reach your conclusion as it seems to be for you to understand the opposite. The stats just happen to back my view up. More to the point, they in most cases clearly contradict the stuff coming out when people are trying to explain just what exactly they think was the problem with Bruno's performance.

You're the one who's hung up on the chances created statistic. I agree completely he created fewer genuine chances than he did against Chelsea. So did the team as a whole. But did it seriously look like what Bruno was doing was the reason for that to you? Because to me it looked a lot like if anything was happening, a Bruno pass was nearly always involved in it.

Also, he was working very hard and to good effect defensively, and was generally doing well with the passing, all across the pitch.

 

[MadMike]

Without Bruno our attack would be relegation standard. Since the cup final he's our joint top scorer and the player with the most assists (league stats).

It's fair cop complaining about the guy if there was someone else being unfairly benched. But there isn't. Who could do better?

And even when he has a bad game, he busts a gut for the team. You cannot expect a player to have a good game every week. He's fundamental to this team and the very last person I'm worried about.

 

[Ash_G]

And even when he has a bad game, he busts a gut for the team. You cannot expect a player to have a good game every week. He's fundamental to this team and the very last person I'm worried about.

I think for him he's a good example of where we're setting up in an odd way. You know Bruno is going to give the ball away more often than we'd like (on top of others in attack) and so it's important we're compact in the middle however we continue to set up in a way that means we're so susceptible to a turnover. We also need to get more of the attackers running in behind to maximise what he has to bring.

More widely there's a few things which if he could adapt would be a big help e.g. he just doesn't know how to calm things down but similar to how Rooney always seemed to play better when on the edge maybe he also needs to be playing at a frantic pace. I think if we were in a position of wanting to go for the title or something like that he'd be someone you'd have to question as you just can't control big games often enough with him playing as he does but given how far away we are, as you say there are much bigger issues to sort than him.

 

[Marwood]

I see your point and you are right, overall result will influence perception of an individual performance to a degree. But your premise in this debate is faulty to a degree because you act as if the fbref stats are a 1:1 "translation" of the game into numbers. Which it isn't necessarily. Don't get me wrong, I am not going to dismiss those numbers at all but obviously there are still things on the pitch, that aren't measured yet or ever will be. Like attempted long balls with low percentage, number of rushed decisions, perceived frustration levels and so on. Obviously - such factors are tricky to handle but they are part of the game just like the ones, that are measured right now. Which by the way is way more than what was measures 10 years ago or even 20 years ago.

If you thought, he had a good game, that is fine. Everybody deals with his own biases, what I can tell you is (and that seems to be the case with other posters), that his outing against BOU was frustrating to me because we have seen a typical "It's not going well"-Bruno performance in the last 30minutes. Hitting Hollywood passes, losing battles in midfield and so on. And it isn't just posters around here, iirc Neville was critical of him, Scholes is often critical I'd be shocked if he weren't last weekend. Same applies for McKola or UnitedPeoplesTV, at least the 2nd usually a big fan of the player from what I know. And it isn't just them, I follow a few Uniteds fan channels and most of them noted him as having a rather bad game. Not saying those people are the be all and end all, but it sets a little context.

Just saying it is overall frustration and agendas isn't going to cut it. Chelsea was disorganized, we seemed really up for it, against the Blues we pressed very differently then we did against BOU with more or less the front six playing very high most of the time. It was a very different match and while I would agree, that it is probably next to impossible to use a measure of good or bad to sum up a performance in a way that is accepted by many different people in a fan community, I think, your reasoningis not as solid as (you appear to) think.

You're saying stats aren't everything. They don't have a 1:1 relationship to what actually happened in the game. It's a fair, if pretty obvious point.

I'm wondering, have you ever made the same point to this extent when using stats to criticise Bruno? Have you ever made this point to Zaafi or Jeppers when they're criticising Bruno based on stats?

 

[zaafi]

You're saying stats aren't everything. They don't have a 1:1 relationship to what actually happened in the game. It's a fair, if pretty obvious point.

I'm wondering, have you ever made the same point to this extent when using stats to criticise Bruno? Have you ever made this point to Zaafi or Jeppers when they're criticising Bruno based on stats?

Except neither of us have ever said Bruno played shit purely because of stats. They are used in conjunction with what we see him do during the games. Some of his stalwart defenders on here use stats alone like "chances created" to justify his performances, which is why many of us are sick to death of seeing the constant twitter links from Statman Dave or other links.

 

[Cassidy]

Without Bruno our attack would be relegation standard. Since the cup final he's our joint top scorer and the player with the most assists (league stats).

It's fair cop complaining about the guy if there was someone else being unfairly benched. But there isn't. Who could do better?

I disagree, hes a major problem and I'd rather Eriksen or a new player play as the 10

 

[Marwood]

Except neither of us have ever said Bruno played shit purely because of stats. They are used in conjunction with what we see him do during the games. Some of his stalwart defenders on here use stats alone like "chances created" to justify his performances, which is why many of us are sick to death of seeing the constant twitter links from Statman Dave or other links.

Zaafi you're here after almost every game with Bruno's possession stats. If you're not judging solely on stats you're very close to doing so.

 

[zaafi]

Zaafi you're here after almost every game with Bruno's possession stats. If you're not judging solely on stats you're very close to doing so.

Showing how bad in possession he is with statistics isn't judging him purely on stats. It's judging him on one of his weaknesses. I'm watching the games and post based on his performance. Against Chelsea, I praised him and thought he had a fantastic game, and against Bournemouth, I thought he had an awful game. It is a player performance thread after all.

At the end of the day, he is a very limited player who excels in one particular aspect of the game, and he is being given the freedom to do as he pleases. For a team who doesn't aim to win any major trophies, he is a great player as he can create a chance very quickly, particularly in transitions, but for a team that aims to control with proper attacking sequences and consistent build-up, and compete with the best teams in the world, it's not going to work because he is a very limited player with a narrow set of skills. Unfortunately for us, the players on our bench are a nightmare.

 

[Jeppers7]

He really reminds me of a footballing equivalent to ‘if a tree falls in the forest but there’s no one to hear it, does it make a sound?’

If Bruno tries ten passes and 9 lead to counters but one is an assist, is he a good player?

World class

 

[RedDevil@84]

He will lead us into Europa tomorrow.

 

[neon_badger]

I hear the term "bust a gut" and "puts a shift in" etc..being attributed to him, what exactly does this mean? All I see is a lot of running, usually never quite quickly enough to get close enough to physically tackle a player, or remotely pressure a player. He can run, and occasionally hit a decent pass. 90% Paula Radcliffe 10% Paul Scholes.

 

[NZT-One]

You're saying stats aren't everything. They don't have a 1:1 relationship to what actually happened in the game. It's a fair, if pretty obvious point.

I'm wondering, have you ever made the same point to this extent when using stats to criticise Bruno? Have you ever made this point to Zaafi or Jeppers when they're criticising Bruno based on stats?

I was sure somebody would try that angle. But I think, you missed the point. I am not discrediting available stats. I am saying that good stats not necessarily imply a good game. Obviously this applies the other way around as well but it is excplicitly nothing against specific stats.

We all know he is a very productive creator and a dilligent worker off the ball. The millionth post stating that won't squeeze more juice out of it. It has been acknowledged by 99.9999% of posters in here. It is some of the rest. And some of the stuff that isn't measured today. Maybe never will be.

 

[Gabriel Djemba-Bebe]

I hear the term "bust a gut" and "puts a shift in" etc..being attributed to him, what exactly does this mean? All I see is a lot of running, usually never quite quickly enough to get close enough to physically tackle a player, or remotely pressure a player. He can run, and occasionally hit a decent pass. 90% Paula Radcliffe 10% Paul Scholes.

Ah yes, his pressing in the 90th minute vs Chelsea which led to their GK kicking the ball out for a throw-in was very Paula Radcliffe esque. If only we had Martial on the pitch instead of Bruno, so he could jog around and allow the opposition to progress the ball further up the pitch.

 

[Bastian]

Without Bruno our attack would be relegation standard. Since the cup final he's our joint top scorer and the player with the most assists (league stats).

It's fair cop complaining about the guy if there was someone else being unfairly benched. But there isn't. Who could do better?

I agree that he's our best attacking player, however I disagree with the argument of "who could do better" in the sense that changing our style of play might collectively be better in many instances even if it means dropping a good individual player or a player in form. Not necessarily Bruno, even though I used to think he won't be able to adapt to Erik's preferred style of play I am now coming round to the idea that he might be able to, but generally you could say Maguire has been in great form, which he has been, but it means we play a much lower line and it was only really against Chelsea that our backline played quick passes with him part of it. The same could be said for an in-form Rashford, who doesn't work out of possession which impacts the whole team. Or for Dave when he was making wonder saves but his distribution was atrocious and our playing out from the back was very shaky.

Bruno does lose the ball an awful lot and tries numerous passes that do not come off, the worst of it when he is defending in our half and he goes for the spectacular rather than the efficient. But his commitment and availability, coupled with his talent, means he's likely always an asset.

That being said, I do think playing Mount in that role with two energetic midfielders (one of whom being Mainoo) would be quite a solid way of pressing from the front and making efficient use of possession.

 

[neon_badger]

Ah yes, his pressing in the 90th minute vs Chelsea which led to their GK kicking the ball out for a throw-in was very Paula Radcliffe esque. If only we had Martial on the pitch instead of Bruno, so he could jog around and allow the opposition to progress the ball further up the pitch.

Yes, he's more hardworking than the benchmark of athleticism that is Martial...all is good.

 

[Marwood]

I was sure somebody would try that angle. But I think, you missed the point. I am not discrediting available stats. I am saying that good stats not necessarily imply a good game. Obviously this applies the other way around as well but it is excplicitly nothing against specific stats.

We all know he is a very productive creator and a dilligent worker off the ball. The millionth post stating that won't squeeze more juice out of it. It has been acknowledged by 99.9999% of posters in here. It is some of the rest. And some of the stuff that isn't measured today. Maybe never will be.

I think you've missed my point. I get what you're saying about stats.

My point is have you ever said this the other way around when it comes to Bruno? That maybe bad stats don't always amount to a bad game?

Would seem a fairer approach rather than only introducing this stat caveat when his stats are good right?

 

[Jeppers7]

He’s been shite for the majority of his time here. Performance wise. Stats wise he’s been better than KDB. Perhaps there’s a reason why there’s a gulf between performance and stats and perhaps stats are hurting us.

 

[Gabriel Djemba-Bebe]

Yes, he's more hardworking than the benchmark of athleticism that is Martial...all is good.

You asked what all of his running actually achieves. After providing an example of what it achieves, I presumed a comparison with someone who doesn't run very much would help explain the importance of off-the-ball running in this sport

 

[RedSky]

I agree that he's our best attacking player, however I disagree with the argument of "who could do better" in the sense that changing our style of play might collectively be better in many instances even if it means dropping a good individual player or a player in form. Not necessarily Bruno, even though I used to think he won't be able to adapt to Erik's preferred style of play I am now coming round to the idea that he might be able to, but generally you could say Maguire has been in great form, which he has been, but it means we play a much lower line and it was only really against Chelsea that our backline played quick passes with him part of it. The same could be said for an in-form Rashford, who doesn't work out of possession which impacts the whole team. Or for Dave when he was making wonder saves but his distribution was atrocious and our playing out from the back was very shaky.

Bruno does lose the ball an awful lot and tries numerous passes that do not come off, the worst of it when he is defending in our half and he goes for the spectacular rather than the efficient. But his commitment and availability, coupled with his talent, means he's likely always an asset.

That being said, I do think playing Mount in that role with two energetic midfielders (one of whom being Mainoo) would be quite a solid way of pressing from the front and making efficient use of possession.

Who could do better in our current squad. It's certainly not Mount, yes it's early on in his United career but he doesn't have a goal or assist to his name. Eriksen possibly, but he doesn't have the legs anymore to cope with the demands of playing higher up the pitch on a week by week basis. It's not Hannibal as he's far too rash and not good enough on the ball. Yes Bruno gives it away a lot, but he's also the only one that delivers on a consistent basis, he's our only consistent attacker. The only one that creates and he chips in with a decent amount of goals. To put it into perspective, he's got 11 Goals/Assists combined since the League Cup final, our next highest contributor is Rashford on 7, then Scott on 6, Martial on 5, Sancho on 4.

The truth is that right now, with the squad we have not playing Bruno is the equivalent of shooting yourself in your foot. I actually want it to happen just so we can shut up all the bullshit the lad gets.

 

[neon_badger]

You asked what all of his running actually achieves. After providing an example of what it achieves, I presumed a comparison with someone who doesn't run very much would help explain the importance of off-the-ball running in this sport

I find a great deal of comfort from this information, Bayern and Liverpool will be shitting it...Bruno will really show these workshy layabouts how to bust a gut, with the obvious exception of the Liverpool game which he bottled out of because he hasn't recovered from the last time when they reduced him to a public laughing stock...by ironically busting a gut, not in a stat padding way, in an effective way.

 

[Gabriel Djemba-Bebe]

I find a great deal of comfort from this information, Bayern and Liverpool will be shitting it...Bruno will really show these workshy layabouts how to bust a gut, with the obvious exception of the Liverpool game which he bottled out of because he hasn't recovered from the last time when they reduced him to a public laughing stock...by ironically busting a gut, not in a stat padding way, in an effective way.

Indeed. Just like Keano and Scholes bottled out of the 99 final.

 

[Cassidy]

Pogba was much better

 

[neon_badger]

Indeed. Just like Keano and Scholes bottled out of the 99 final.

Yes, just like that

 

[erikcred]

Indeed. Just like Keano and Scholes bottled out of the 99 final.

Not quite the clever comeback you think it is. They didn't get a yellow for dissent.

Fergie said this about Keane on that match -- "It was the most emphatic display of selflessness I have seen."

I'm sure that's exactly how you feel about Bruno, but not everyone shares your view.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I hear the term "bust a gut" and "puts a shift in" etc..being attributed to him, what exactly does this mean? All I see is a lot of running, usually never quite quickly enough to get close enough to physically tackle a player, or remotely pressure a player. He can run, and occasionally hit a decent pass. 90% Paula Radcliffe 10% Paul Scholes.

This is just… horseshit… in a thread full of horseshit.

Pogba was much better

Oh wait… it gets worse.

 

[justsomebloke]

Except neither of us have ever said Bruno played shit purely because of stats. They are used in conjunction with what we see him do during the games. Some of his stalwart defenders on here use stats alone like "chances created" to justify his performances, which is why many of us are sick to death of seeing the constant twitter links from Statman Dave or other links.

And equally the argument that he's playing well isn't made on the basis of stats either, with stats used in conjunction.

 

[arthurka]

Convinced he deliberately got himself carded so to miss the Liverpool game.

Me too. He knew full well what he was doing.

 

[bosnian_red]

This thread is such horse shit. Bruno getting dragged because the team he plays in is garbage with garbage coaching, despite him being the main point of anything good that comes out of us in the past 5 years. But because he can't magically make us consistent title challengers, it's all on him? Oh and then for people to question his work rate or intentions is laughable too.

 

[sugar_kane]

It's ludicrous to criticise Bruno right now when he is the one player you can guarantee who puts in a shift every single game.

Effort is our biggest issue right now, and half the team can't be fecked. Until this is sorted, it's stupid to point the finger at Bruno.