Wing Attack Plan R
Full Member
Mind gamesIf that was ETHs thinking, why did he make him captain?
Mind gamesIf that was ETHs thinking, why did he make him captain?
He’d have been a legend at Brighton - and then we would have bought him for £100 million, so there’s no way out of this vicious circle..
Yeah this is sort of always been my issue with Bruno. It’s always felt like he plays like a legendary midtable club player instead of one that’s looking to win major trophies. Tries the spectacular all too often with both his passes and shots. Puts in a heroic shift but sometimes at the risk of losing structure within the team. Loses composure when things are going wrong for him leading to a bit of a hero complex. If he played for West Ham he’d be a legend and one of their greatest players, but I’ve never thought his overall game is conducive to a side that’s looking to truly challenge for major honors. I had hoped Ten Hag would tweak some of those things but instead with this “I want to play transition football” mindset he’s sort of just enabled it instead
He’d have been a legend at Brighton - and then we would have bought him for £100 million, so there’s no way out of this vicious circle.
He's our best player whose actions lead to goals/chances.Surprises me that this idea that he is our best player doesn’t get challenged.
On top form I’d have Martinez, Varane, Shaw, Casemiro, Rashford as better players in their respective positions. I’d also say that he’s incredibly inconsistent where the others anside from Rashford are way more consistent. So I don’t get that thought process.
Apparently so !He's our best player whose actions lead to goals/chances.
He really reminds me of a footballing equivalent to ‘if a tree falls in the forest but there’s no one to hear it, does it make a sound?’Surprises me that this idea that he is our best player doesn’t get challenged.
On top form I’d have Martinez, Varane, Shaw, Casemiro, Rashford as better players in their respective positions. I’d also say that he’s incredibly inconsistent where the others anside from Rashford are way more consistent. So I don’t get that thought process.
.
Yeah this is sort of always been my issue with Bruno. It’s always felt like he plays like a legendary midtable club player instead of one that’s looking to win major trophies. Tries the spectacular all too often with both his passes and shots. Puts in a heroic shift but sometimes at the risk of losing structure within the team. Loses composure when things are going wrong for him leading to a bit of a hero complex. If he played for West Ham he’d be a legend and one of their greatest players, but I’ve never thought his overall game is conducive to a side that’s looking to truly challenge for major honors. I had hoped Ten Hag would tweak some of those things but instead with this “I want to play transition football” mindset he’s sort of just enabled it instead
Classic chicken or egg problem.Well, he sort of is. We are an upper midtable club who has not competed for any major trophies in 10 years now. This is the level you get to by having someone like Bruno be your main man.
He’s just high risk/high reward. All the great players tilt one side of that. Bruno struggles to.Bruno is an enigma. The most purposeful player in terms of chance creation and the most wasteful too in terms of passes
Bruno is an enigma. The most purposeful player in terms of chance creation and the most wasteful too in terms of passes
Not only that. He can also switch between showing fantastic attitude and terrible attitude. I thought his effort against Chelsea was incredible. He tracked back, made slide tackles and key interceptions. In other games we have seen him be extremely petulant, when the going gets tough.
Not only that. He can also switch between showing fantastic attitude and terrible attitude. I thought his effort against Chelsea was incredible. He tracked back, made slide tackles and key interceptions. In other games we have seen him be extremely petulant, when the going gets tough.
Yup. Thought he was genuinly world class against Chelsea and pretty much the opposite against Bournmouth.
In my view he was pretty good against Bournemouth, and not really very different than he was against Chelsea. I seriously don't understand how people are watching him to arrive at that conclusion, unless you've just stopped noticing the 10-15 times in a game he hits a successful creative pass, while overemphasising the limited number of times he strikes a badly off one. In this case, there were also multiple key defensive interventions. He was our best player by a safe distance.
He’s definitely a player that splits fan opinion that’s for sure
The Rashford treatment would be apt, but I doubt ETH has this big balls to bench the captain. Who should never ever be captain for this club.
Convinced he deliberately got himself carded so to miss the Liverpool game.
His defensive actions against Chelsea where much better and he played more composed, lost the ball much more against Bournemouth.
Really? He was disposessed once against Chelsea, not one time against Bournemouth. His pass completion was 72.7% against Chelsea, 81.7% against Bournemouth. Despite attempting 93 passes against Bournemouth, only 55 against Chelsea. He had 3 tackles + interceptions against Bournemouth, 2 against Chelsea. He recovered 11 loose balls against Bournemouth, 4 against Chelsea.
His pass completion was 88% against Chelsea, genuinely created chances and had purpose behind his pressing and made good decisions throughout the game, something he struggles with very often.
He lost the ball 22 times against Bournemouth, so I'm not sure what you mean he didn't get dispossessed once here.
His overall game against Chelsea was much, much better than against Bournemouth. Statistically, he created more chances against Bournemouth, but honestly, he didn't create a single chance. Just goes to show the chances created stats is bollocks. Only thing that matters are big chances created.
I have Fbref's match report right in front of me, with Opta data. 55 passes attempted, 40 completed. What are you looking at?
Manchester United vs. Chelsea Match Report – Wednesday December 6, 2023 | FBref.com
And he obviously wasn't dispossessed 22 times against Bournemouth, no one ever is. That must be the number of uncompleted passes (of which there were 17, according to Opta).
I'm looking at sofascore. Bruno Fernandes stats and ratings | Sofascore
I watched every second of the Chelsea match, and there is no way he mispassed 15 times.
Really? He was disposessed once against Chelsea, not one time against Bournemouth. His pass completion was 72.7% against Chelsea, 81.7% against Bournemouth. Despite attempting 93 passes against Bournemouth, only 55 against Chelsea. He had 3 tackles + interceptions against Bournemouth, 2 against Chelsea. He recovered 11 loose balls against Bournemouth, 4 against Chelsea.
G’way with your logic and “stats”. We lost so the Bruno haters are determined to fill their boots. They live for this. Don’t be mean.
G’way with your logic and “stats”. We lost so the Bruno haters are determined to fill their boots. They live for this. Don’t be mean.
I fully intend to be coldly ruthless. An unrepentant Scrooge to the needy hater.
Seriously though, it's not always easy, eye test impressions. We all rationalise.
Stats dont paint a correct picture here. Brunos game against Chelsea was magnificent. Like I said, to me he was world class.
Yes on paper he created the same against Bournemouth, but the passes he made and the chances where shite. He would constantly just fling the ball ahead, which sadly gets counted as a chance, even if there is more chance of Margot Robbie asking you to marry her, than the receiver of said pass to be able to do anything with it.
Whats the difference? He buckles as soon as we go behind. He becomes petulant. Heck he even kicked an opponent in the back for no reason other than the fact that he is a massive child when things arent going his way.
Its my one issue with him.
I dont mind him losing the ball at times because that will happen to a creative attacking midfielder. I dont even mind that his dribbling is non existing because he creates in a different way.
But the way his game is so driven on emotion is really a problem for us, especially since we are in a very difficult period.
I'm not arguing that it is the stats making that argument. As far as I'm concerned, it was obvious watching the game that he delivered a good performance, the stats just corroborate it. For the actual areas of the game you argued that he did worse than against Chelsea, he demonstrably did better.
But rather than accept that, you're doubling down on your initial verdict of a world class performance against Chelsea and "the opposite" against Bourneouth, coming up with new reasons for it. "Constantly flinging the ball ahead which sadly gets counted as a chance"? Well, again there's the small matter of his having a much better pass completion in the Bournemouth game, so obviously there was a good deal more of that in that world class performance against Chelsea than there was against Bournemouth. To be specific, he attempted 10 long passes against Chelsea, and completed 3. Against Bournemouth he attempted 16 and completed 11. So maybe you should just stop making things up?
Obviously there were many more good chances created against Chelsea than against Bournemouth (xG about four times higher), but that's about the whole team performance. Obviously that also reflects on the individuals, but if you're looking for big dropoffs compared to Chelsea, Bruno isn't where you're going to find that.
So, in the end what you're left with is basically "too emotional"?
Well, we can change a few things and see of we perform better overall, as a team.The Rashford treatment wouldn’t make sense. We don’t have a better player than Bruno to come in to that role. Simply swapping Bruno for a different footballer isn’t the answer, especially swapping him for a footballer currently within our squad. Swapping Bruno-ball for measured ball, however, IS the answer IMO. Both approaches have the same action of Bruno being out of the team, however, they have very different outcomes.
The big problem here is that Ten Hag appears to be a borderline terrible coach and is a false *********** with rubbish ideas. In our current team, swapping Bruno for Donny would weaken us a lot. If we played a different type of football, swapping Bruno for Donny would probably benefit us.
It’s the constant things like this that feed into the idea that, maybe, Erik ten Hag isn’t quite the tactical mastermind we were expecting. The same tactical misgivings happen again and again and have been for the entire 18 months he’s been here.Again though...I don't understand why, if we as fans can all accurately identify Bruno's strengths and weaknesses, our manager consistently instructs him to play in a manner which doesn't suit him at all.
This is the current conundrome isn't it? And probably the reason, why so many in the debate seem to have such polarized positions. It is possible to want a players role changed (or even gone) while acknowledging how important he is to you.The Rashford treatment wouldn’t make sense. We don’t have a better player than Bruno to come in to that role. Simply swapping Bruno for a different footballer isn’t the answer, especially swapping him for a footballer currently within our squad. Swapping Bruno-ball for measured ball, however, IS the answer IMO. Both approaches have the same action of Bruno being out of the team, however, they have very different outcomes.
The big problem here is that Ten Hag appears to be a borderline terrible coach and is a false *********** with rubbish ideas. In our current team, swapping Bruno for Donny would weaken us a lot. If we played a different type of football, swapping Bruno for Donny would probably benefit us.
I see your point and you are right, overall result will influence perception of an individual performance to a degree. But your premise in this debate is faulty to a degree because you act as if the fbref stats are a 1:1 "translation" of the game into numbers. Which it isn't necessarily. Don't get me wrong, I am not going to dismiss those numbers at all but obviously there are still things on the pitch, that aren't measured yet or ever will be. Like attempted long balls with low percentage, number of rushed decisions, perceived frustration levels and so on. Obviously - such factors are tricky to handle but they are part of the game just like the ones, that are measured right now. Which by the way is way more than what was measures 10 years ago or even 20 years ago.I'm not arguing that it is the stats making that argument. As far as I'm concerned, it was obvious watching the game that he delivered a good performance, the stats just corroborate it. For the actual areas of the game you argued that he did worse than against Chelsea, he demonstrably did better.
But rather than accept that, you're doubling down on your initial verdict of a world class performance against Chelsea and "the opposite" against Bourneouth, coming up with new reasons for it. "Constantly flinging the ball ahead which sadly gets counted as a chance"? Well, again there's the small matter of his having a much better pass completion in the Bournemouth game, so obviously there was a good deal more of that in that world class performance against Chelsea than there was against Bournemouth. To be specific, he attempted 10 long passes against Chelsea, and completed 3. Against Bournemouth he attempted 16 and completed 11. So maybe you should just stop making things up?
Obviously there were many more good chances created against Chelsea than against Bournemouth (xG about four times higher), but that's about the whole team performance. Obviously that also reflects on the individuals, but if you're looking for big dropoffs compared to Chelsea, Bruno isn't where you're going to find that.
So, in the end what you're left with is basically "too emotional"?