Labour vs Tory feels so irrelevant right now when it comes to UK politics. Brexit vs no-Brexit is all that matters in the scheme of things.
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
- Thread starter Silva
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The fecking state of the British press kneeling down in front of Rees-Mogg 
Jacob Rees-Mogg being portrayed as a man speaking for the people is the greatest reinvention in human history.
A comical looking Tory who uses long words, that you usually only see when someone has a stab in the dark at Scrabble over Christmas. He's everything the BBC look for when they're looking to create a new hero.
Much as I don't like His politics I think he would slaughter whoever he was up against on pmq's (with the possible exception of Dennis Skinner)
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There is a good to decent chance that he'll literally bore the opposition benches to death.
It’s basic maths - over 40% of UK trade goes to the EU while it’s around 8% the other way. Quite why anyone still thinks we can drive a stronger deal is beyond me. The only choices are chaos, a managed decline under May’s proposal or status quo (give or take a rebate).
It's even better for the EU, they've got the UK right where they want them. The UK will have no say and will be contributing to the budget while most things stay similar. The only way out for the UK is if the EU let them out and if the UK does leave, they fall off the cliff later instead of now. There is only one sensible solution and that is to remain in the EU.
The UK unilaterally decided to sign treaties with other countries and decided to share a common area and common jurisdictions. They didn't lose any sovereignty, they sovereignly decided to not do certain things alone, they also retained the unilateral ability to leave at any point.
You seem to not understand what sovereignty means and how it can be exercised, choosing to take decisions with other is a sovereign choice, the Treaties of the European Union and the Treaty on the functioning of the European Union have been imposed on no one, every signatory took a sovereign decision and can reverse it.
Harsh but accurate. Just over 50% of the electorate are delusional.
Merkle and France saying the deal is not up for renegotiation
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46228454
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46228454
I know what you're saying but it appears that's not the case everywhere, Paul. If I can find the link, I'll post it.
We found the process to be a little convoluted in Italy, but as you'll know, the Italians do like their bureaucracy! We had no problems (it took about 6 weeks), but we did follow the instructions to the letter, including staying in three days a week waiting for the random police visit.
Right. The UK signed treaties to give up some of it's sovereignty in order to be part of the EU. And then there was a vote where part of the issue was whether to leave those treaties and regain that previously given up sovereignty. It's possible to voluntarily lose your sovereignty (most of us do it everyday when we go to work).
Not in that context since like you said you unilaterally chose to leave those treaties. So you used your sovereign powers over these treaties.
I fully agree (that’s what I meant by managed decline).
Even though it’s my desired outcome, I struggle though to see how things can move towards the third option of a second referendum as it would most likely require a general election first, which would mean that some Tory MPs had voted down their own leader in the knowledge it would probably lead to a Corbyn government.
But it's all centralised in Nantes even if the initial contact is at local level. Yes there's lots of paperwork like Italy but the decisions are taken at a national level. A couple of my English friends got theirs yesterday. I've seen expat forums before and well um.. blind leading the blind.
What I meant was if they don't comply with the rules like being able to support themselves, not being a burden on the state etc, the same as the UK could refuse EU citizens now while still in the EU.
You're creating a distinction where there isn't one. But this is going nowhere in particular: if you want to reframe it to say that the referendum was about using a sovereign right to exit EU treaties and no longer be subject to their laws, regulations and courts, that's fine. It doesn't change the substance of the argument.
First it's not "their" laws but "your/our" laws, the UK are a member of the EU. And secondly, you can't exercise a power that you allegedly lost, the reality is that you never lost it, it's not that difficult to understand.
Interesting comparison. For example I could attempt to reclaim this 'sovereignty' by quitting my job. Me and my household would be worse off for it tho. Very apt...
It won't be like turning a switch but a hard border and the collapse of the GFA could lead there.
Look, as I said before, you can voluntarily give up certain sovereign rights - and then you can take them back. We still maintained the right to leave, but not others - it's not a binary thing. And you're ignoring political realities: in any political system, no one party controls the legislation that comes out. What you're saying is like telling anti-war protesters that the Iraq war was 'their war' because they are citizens of the UK.
Well I used that comparison because it works. I disagree on the outcomes though.
I wonder why anyone would like to reduce the influence of the EU and allow this shower of shit, that we call politicians, have even more decision making power? I wouldn't let most of them park my car.
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So by that logic you'd like to see smaller organisation governing smaller regions within Britain itself? Or is one government governing 66 million people in 4 different countries ok by you? Would the break up of the United Kingdom into 4 (probably 3) separate countries not be a price worth paying for England to be able to govern itself with your idea of sovereignty?
It's interesting to me that back when Britain was "Great", they didn't appear to share your inclination towards sovereignty and smaller government. Instead they seemed very determined to set sail and impose their law and government on as many countries as they could get their hands on.
As such, they created complicated situations such that of Northern Ireland. Now, because 52% of Britain have decided they no longer wish to be a part of the union they willingly and knowingly signed up to of their own free will, an Island that had such complication forced upon it by the historic actions of your nation should be faced with either violent or economic uncertainty? Is that a just and fair sacrifice to expect a neighbour to bear, just because you have changed your mind?
It's this idea that Europe have wronged Britain by somehow hoodwinking them into willingly joining the EU while at the same time, Britain should be completely abdicated of all responsibility for their former actions that I struggle with the most. It's hard to believe anyone can be so self-righteously selfish with a straight face.
Speaking of problems you never thought you'd have
http://www.donegaldaily.com/2018/09...r-with-plans-for-two-time-zones-after-brexit/
http://www.donegaldaily.com/2018/09...r-with-plans-for-two-time-zones-after-brexit/
As regards the post-transition deal, I heard Van Rompuy make an interesting observation today - trade treaty negotiations always involve convergence - reducing barriers/tariffs etc. The UK/EU negotiation, on the other hand, starts from a position of total convergence and will end up settling on a point of increased divergence. There are virtually no precedents, at least among advanced economies.
* It is their MO
** the they did force them to shoot themselves in both feet repeatedly
The problem is they believe hats it's a dead man's trigger.
All they worry about is their personal gains.
Can't remember who said it on here, but Brexiters don't care.... They just want what they want.
What I'm saying is like saying that being in a coalition doesn't mean that the Iraq war wasn't the UK's war.
I've said this from the start... It's one of the reasons trade deals are typically collaberative as you are coming together whilst this will be more combative as your moving apart... I deal with and negotiate with governments as part of my job... So logically you would think I might have some idea about this .... As such my thoughts were Instantly cast as part of projet fear...
I know it's wrong but it's going to be hard to feel sympathy for those turkeys who voted for Xmas when economic realities hit home
The UK does have increasingly devolved power. Wales, Scotland and NI have their own governments and manage their own health services etc. The regions have more devolved power than ever with a mayoral system being implemented recently. Regions are campaigning for more power. Manchester wants complete autonomy over transport, for example.
Almost like the devolved power the UK had within the EU then. Or will Manchester not have to answer to the Department for Transport in any way?
You just don’t believe enough. We survived WWII etc...
On a more serious note, the problem is the turkeys take everyone else with them (certainly the vast majority of those who have to deal with the sharp end of these issues).
Davis and Paterson, the latest comedy duo.
I think this debacle may have opened up a lot of voters eyes as to how bad this lot of politicians are. Bunch of incompetent idiots
This is such a shit deal. We end up worse off economically with us still having EU rehulstion but zero say. No wonder nobody barring May likes it.
This is pretty much already the case. Scotland, Wales and NI have seperate devolved legislatures.
I understand why you would look at it like this, but I don't believe the EU hoodwinked Britain. However, the last time the question was put to the public regarding Europe was in 1975, and there have been material changes to the deal since then. I also don't see how leaving the EU would necessitate violence in NI.
Not the same thing at all. You're still thinking of the EU as some kind of lose partnership: this is not the case and has not been for a long time. The EU has a central bank, a parliament, courts, a police force and soon will have a military. Now, I'm not against the EU doing any of that, but I voted leave because I didn't think it was a good idea for the UK to a part of it.