Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[SwansonsTache]

It doesn't transfer power from a sovereign nation and it's population?

A common defence policy and force is way more logic than a organization that demands 3424324234234234 supranational laws plus a enormous fee for you to simply be allowed to trade with them on the free market.

Anyway, I have promised to stop, and will do so now. If you want to discuss NATO then start a seperate thread.

And yes, it does transfer power - but that is for defence only. Not literally everything regarding resources, trade, border policy, immigration policy, laws, agriculture, subsidies etc etc.

 

[Jippy]

Similar thanks for responding in an even-handed way.

I wouldn't call it a shot in the dark, there is undoubtedly some element of risk but then a huge, unprecedented constitutional change will fairly naturally carry this.

Yes I do want a better policy on immigration. It is ludicrous to have a system of unfettered access to a select group of nations, it inevitably leads to passing up some of the world's best talent. Leaving aside all the other stuff, do you not accept something akin to the Aussie system would be fairer overall and better for the UK?

I could well be wrong about the economy. This whole debate is predicated on unprecedented events but the evidence suggests to me that ultimately the economy has enough about it to prosper. Short term pain will almost certainly result as our financial system works on confidence and uncertainty destroys this. However, if you accept (as I do) that it will ultimately give greater scope to trade with the wider world then unfortunately this has to be accepted as a consequence. There was no way a Brexit vote would ever occur without that sort of shock, but Mark Carney (a remainer of course) has already indicated that the strength exists to cope with this. How long for it to settle? Well, if I knew for certain I'd probably be a very rich man but my guess is that negotiations on exit will be concluded ad rapidly as possible to lay the groundwork for stability.

To take your example on progressive laws, let's say the EU decided to start repealing such laws? What could you do? What could you do if they passed any legislation you felt was utterly wrong? It might not happen, but it might and therefore staying in has its own risks in this sense.

UK governments are powerful and can effect change quickly but can still be voted out. This debate might not apply for the next 20 years but I simply want the electorate - and the Parliament it elects - to decide what's best.

We're losing the passporting of UK financial services into the EU, ie the reason why all the US banks are based in London. We've fecked the City and and one of the UK's key industries. Taking back control.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

A common defence policy and force is way more logic than a organization that demands 3424324234234234 supranational laws plus a enormous fee for you to simply be allowed to trade with them on the free market.

They don't just stick that fee in a bank account for themselves a la Blatter... it is used to distribute wealth to places in the EEA that need it.

 

[vidic blood & sand]

We will do that anyway by showing you can prosper once leaving the EU. For believers in the 'European Project' religion this is the endgame. It's the equivalent of being in a relationship with a madwoman. You might treat the breakup coolly, she might drive you both off a cliff so nobody else can have you if she can't.

That's the spirit.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

If we left the EU, but were forced to abide by EU regulations to trade, leaving would be a terrible disaster, because at least by being in the EU we'd have a voice, and access to EU benefits. And so by activating article 50 (which we have to do now), we have no choice but to go to the negotiating table in kickass mode. "We're getting what we say we want". Any other attitude would sink our nation, and we'd drag the EU down with us.

I'm confused... do you want to be in the single market or not?

 

[#07]

So you think the UK will prosper without access to the single market ?

We will always have access to the EU, just not tariff free access.

I voted to remain because of the risks of leaving, and the dangers of having no influence on the single market to the UK.

That being said it is perfectly reasonable to imagine we can make it work, eventually. In the meantime I am deeply worried about how this will all turn out.

Britain has committed heresy against the 'ever closer union' religion. I don't think it's priests will be happy to just let us off easily. It seems fanciful to believe we will just turn up and say we want EEA status, and everyone in the Commission, Council and Parliament will just say 'why of course'.

 

[Jippy]

If we left the EU, but were forced to abide by EU regulations to trade, leaving would be a terrible disaster, because at least by being in the EU we'd have a voice, and access to EU benefits. And so by activating article 50 (which we have to do now), we have no choice but to go to the negotiating table in kickass mode. "We're getting what we say we want". Any other attitude would sink our nation, and we'd drag the EU down with us.

What if they so no? Their 500m free market trumps our 60m population. Germany sounds placatory tbf, but how people think we have the upper hand, or even an equal position, in the debate is bizarre.
Where are you from btw?

 

[sincher]

We have that system now for outside of the EU. Are you not aware of that?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Points-based_immigration_system_(United_Kingdom)

Yes the point is that it is significantly (from a purist perspective) undercut by the unfettered access within the EEA. Many people object strongly to the extension of those rights from the core countries that made up the EU to many others. I don't really agree personally but at very least I think they have a point about timing.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

We will always have access to the EU, just not tariff free access.

I voted to remain because of the risks of leaving, and the dangers of having no influence on the single market to the UK.

That being said it is perfectly reasonable to imagine we can make it work, eventually. In the meantime I am deeply worried about how this will all turn out.

Britain has committed heresy against the 'ever closer union' religion. I don't think it's priests will be happy to just let us off easily. It seems fanciful to believe we will just turn up and say we want EEA status, and everyone in the Commission, Council and Parliament will just say 'why of course'.

Stop comparing to religion ffs, it's the most ridiculous comparison I've possibly ever heard.

 

[Sigma]

that guy on newsnight. What a donkey

 

[Jippy]

I'm confused... do you want to be in the single market or not?

He wants the mythical goal of free market access but immigration veto, it seems.

 

[VeevaVee]

Man on news

"I voted in, but I'm not upset about going out ..... look forward to the challenge now"

Huh? The MPs have a challenge. We'll just have to deal with less of everything.

 

[caid]

I like this new argument that Britain should stay in the EU because the EU are crazy zealots who will only get worse without us.

That kind of was its original purpose wasn't it?

 

[#07]

What if they so no? Their 500m free market trumps our 60m population. Germany sounds placatory tbf, but how people think we have the upper hand, or even an equal position, in the debate is bizarre.
Where are you from btw?

I agree and Germany can't control the outcome of this. If the EU Parliament was presented with a deal it voted down Germany could do nothing about it.

 

[Jonnymufc]

What was stopping us offering residence/citizenship to anyone outside the EU we wanted to attract to Britain?

Nothing per se, but the government has had to massively tighten the rules for non-EU migrants because of the spike in EU migration (primarily caused by the increase in EU nations in 2004) as it was the only number it could actually control. My point is that we should ensure that everyone should be up against the same criteria regardless of what country they are from. I know its not the most critical issue but as a brief example, Indian restaurants in the UK are hugely struggling to get chefs because of the rules on non-EU migrants. Ultimately, I don't see why a German migrant is any more entitled to come here than an Indian or Australian one.

 

[Walrus]

The whole thing is eerily similar to the Scottish independence referendum two years back... lots of talk of 'scaremongering' and a complete lack of any sort of plan by those wanting to change from the status quo. I debated the topic at length at the time - Salmond and co. had no plan, but just repeated the same tired rhetoric about how Scottish oil money would build some sort of utopian paradise.

Fast forward, replace the oil money with the £350m (like the former, a ridiculously optimistic & exaggerated figure which has been debunked by experts time and time again) and you have a very similar picture, except that unfortunately we English were stupid enough to go along with it.

On an aside, when Scotland declares independence (and it is 'when', not 'if'), I am thinking of starting up a new political party along the lines of 'Not UKIP or the Bloody Tories'. Hopefully should have a good target demographic. Might even have a motto that says 'No old people' too. In all seriousness, England/UK politics is in dire need of a shakeup. I had hoped it would come about as a result of the Scottish indyref, but it turned out - shockingly - to be empty promises from Cameron. The younger generations have been completely alienated from the current political scene and very badly underrepresented, and this referendum is further proof of that. It is also proof that some people (not all) are simply sick of the bullshit from politicians in general now (hence the 'giving the government a bloody nose' line of reasoning). It is just hugely unfortunate that people are choosing now to make their protest votes, on an irreversible decision that affects the future of the country.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Yes the point is that it is significantly (from a purist perspective) undercut by the unfettered access within the EEA. Many people object strongly to the extension of those rights from the core countries that made up the EU to many others. I don't really agree personally but at very least I think they have a point about timing.

Why do you have more of a right to move to the UK or Germany if you're a rich well educated, silver spoon fed Australian with a finance degree than a Polish guy who has struggled his entire life and wants to come, work his ass off as a labourer, pay taxes and prosper?

It's elitest, I see Europe and free movement as a future we should be moving more & more towards, not stepping on every smaller nation/ecomomy/population like they are worthless. That leads to huge problems.

 

[Jonnymufc]

We're losing the passporting of UK financial services into the EU, ie the reason why all the US banks are based in London. We've fecked the City and and one of the UK's key industries. Taking back control.

Who says it's being lost? One of the many undecided issues

 

[#07]

Stop comparing to religion ffs, it's the most ridiculous comparison I've possibly ever heard.

Why? Only with complete conviction could you continue to argue for 'more Europe' in the face of what's happened in places like Greece. That is precisely what the likes of Juncker and Schultz do. In their own way they are as myopic as Farage.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

Nothing per se, but the government has had to massively tighten the rules for non-EU migrants because of the spike in EU migration (primarily caused by the increase in EU nations in 2004) as it was the only number it could actually control. My point is that we should ensure that everyone should be up against the same criteria regardless of what country they are from. I know its not the most critical issue but as a brief example, Indian restaurants in the UK are hugely struggling to get chefs because of the rules on non-EU migrants. Ultimately, I don't see why a German migrant is any more entitled to come here than an Indian or Australian one.

Because Britons have the reciprocal right to live and work in Germany. And we are part of a single market with Germany - we aren't with India or Australia.

You're comparing apples with... I don't know, shoes?

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Why? Only with complete conviction could you continue to argue for 'more Europe' in the face of what's happened in places like Greece. That is precisely what the likes of Juncker and Schultz do. In their own way they are as myopic as Farage.

You don't understand religion mate.

Oh, and blaming the EU for Greece is hilarious.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Because Britons have the reciprocal right to live and work in Germany. And we are part of a single market with Germany - we aren't with India or Australia.

You're comparing apples with... I don't know, shoes?

Exactly, we'd be much better off as a World if we increase these rights for people rather than restricting them.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

He wants the mythical goal of free market access but immigration veto, it seems.

And seemingly an opt-out of having to abide by standardised EU trade regulations. It doesn't seem to make any sense to me. What do people think a single market is?

 

[Jippy]

Who says it's being lost? One of the many undecided issues

Switzerland has been trying to get it unsuccessfully for years and failed. The EU replaced Hill as financial services head with the former euro boss. It's clear they will squeeze the City for Franfurt and Paris's gain. Why wouldn't they?
The one hope is that Germany is really anti-derivatives trading and somehow maybe we can scoop up that. Somehow. Without passporting.

 

[vidic blood & sand]

I'm confused... do you want to be in the single market or not?

Sure, and I think we'll get it unless the negotiators are bullied into submission. Otherwise the leave campaign has totally failed.
The victory for the leave campaign was not yesterday, it's still to come. This is why the remainers have to now focus on taking on the EU with the leavers.
The minute article 50 is activated, the leavers and remainers must unite against the EU.

 

[Jonnymufc]

Because Britons have the reciprocal right to live and work in Germany. And we are part of a single market with Germany - we aren't with India or Australia.

You're comparing apples with... I don't know, shoes?

Oh come on, that's a totally circular argument. We are now in the EU, a leave vote has meant we no longer will be. I believe in a policy that treats those nationalities, and all others, equally when it comes to migration. So answer my question, why SHOULD a German migrant be any more entitled to come here than the others?

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Oh come on, that's a totally circular argument. We are now in the EU, a leave vote has meant we no longer will be. I believe in a policy that treats those nationalities, and all others, equally when it comes to migration. So answer my question, why SHOULD a German migrant be any more entitled to come here than the others?

Because free movement allows for a better World? Not a closed World that allows repression to take place and entire populations to be mistreated.

 

[vidic blood & sand]

What if they so no? Their 500m free market trumps our 60m population. Germany sounds placatory tbf, but how people think we have the upper hand, or even an equal position, in the debate is bizarre.
Where are you from btw?

If article 50 is activated, there can't be a no. Even if I was a remainer, I'd at least realize this is a sink or swim scenario.
Do you think we as a nation should now try to humble ourselves and admit that we've made a terrible mistake, and please please let us remain?

 

[Jippy]

And seemingly an opt out of having to abide by standardised EU trade regulations. It doesn't seem to make any sense to me. What do people think a single market is?

Don't worry, the longer we hold out on instigating Article 50, the more desperate they'll become. Putty in our hands.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

Sure, and I think we'll get it unless the negotiators are bullied into submission. Otherwise the leave campaign has totally failed.
The victory for the leave campaign was not yesterday, it's still to come. This is why the remainers have to now focus on taking on the EU with the leavers.
The minute article 50 is activated, the leavers and remainers must unite against the EU.

So you want to be in the single market but not "forced to abide by EU regulations to trade" (your words). I am genuinely baffled as to what you think the single market is, and what you want from the negotiations.

 

[Berbaclass]

If article 50 is activated, there can't be a no. Even if I was a remainer, I'd at least realize this is a sink or swim scenario.
Do you think we as a nation should now try to humble ourselves and admit that we've made a terrible mistake, and please please let us back in?

We've not technically left yet.

 

[Jonnymufc]

Switzerland has been trying to get it unsuccessfully for years and failed. The EU replaced Hill as financial services head with the former euro boss. It's clear they will squeeze the City for Franfurt and Paris's gain. Why wouldn't they?
The one hope is that Germany is really anti-derivatives trading and somehow maybe we can scoop up that. Somehow. Without passporting.

Trying to obtain it is different to having it and losing it, from a negotiating perspective. I accept that protecting the City is a massive priority in negotiations.

 

[Skills]

This will pass over most of the leavers heads because it won't make the Daily Mail or the The Sun.

 

[Untied]

Switzerland has been trying to get it unsuccessfully for years and failed. The EU replaced Hill as financial services head with the former euro boss. It's clear they will squeeze the City for Franfurt and Paris's gain. Why wouldn't they?
The one hope is that Germany is really anti-derivatives trading and somehow maybe we can scoop up that. Somehow. Without passporting.

And it seems to me the U.K. has very little leverage in any negotiations either. The location of talent I guess, but highly paid easy to relocate talent.

 

[Berbaclass]

Fear not people the saviour cometh...

 

[Jonnymufc]

Because free movement allows for a better World? Not a closed World that allows repression to take place and entire populations to be mistreated.

I'm arguing for more of the world to be allowed a chance to come here?

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

I'm arguing for more of the world to be allowed a chance to come here?

No, you're arguing for more qualified people to be allowed a chance, a chance they already have with our current points system for non-eu nationals.

I now live in Sweden, I started a company here and I pay lots of taxes. Thankfully no-one made me chalk up a point score before coming else I wouldn't have gotten in.

 

[caid]

Sure, and I think we'll get it unless the negotiators are bullied into submission. Otherwise the leave campaign has totally failed.
The victory for the leave campaign was not yesterday, it's still to come. This is why the remainers have to now focus on taking on the EU with the leavers.
The minute article 50 is activated, the leavers and remainers must unite against the EU.

Yes antagonising the rest of europe and trying to force a trade agreement down their throat is a brilliant idea.
No chance of that backfiring and having jumped up, self important cocks you'll be negotiating with deciding they're not going to agree to anything that isn't ridiculously punitive

 

[vidic blood & sand]

We've not technically left yet.

Yeah I changed it, but the sentiment is the same. Remain.

 

[Jippy]

If article 50 is activated, there can't be a no. Even if I was a remainer, I'd at least realize this is a sink or swim scenario.
Do you think we as a nation should now try to humble ourselves and admit that we've made a terrible mistake, and please please let us remain?

I don't just don't think we have the upper hand here like you do.