Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[SqueakyWeasel]

Just answer the question, if you think that it really disappeared or that it will disappear then fair enough. But the opinion makers, the main parties are saying something else and remember that they are the ones that created this sentiment in the first place.

What question?

I just see someone who lives in France, one of the most institutionally racist members of the EU, telling me that Britain is well past saving as it has been taught to be racist through social media and their time is up.

I'm sorry if I don't accept that view. But I will not apologise for my stance!

I personally believe that the status quo in Britain is mostly divisive, and that the far right are now hanging on by their fingernails pandering to press and social media campaigns skewing the picture while bleating anything other than a hard BREXIT is "undemocratic".

 

[Sweet Square]

Yeah he's not wrong at all. The narrative is already being spun that all the crap we'll have to deal with after we leave is a result of the EU punishing us thus proving we were right to leave in the first place. The 52% will lap it up. Might even win over a few more simpletons to the cause.

In fairness it's no more stupid then the ''The EU is a place where immigrates can travel and come together as one people and that this union that was create to us european from fighting each etc''.

Although the former will be more damaging to the UK.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

What question?

I just see someone who lives in France, one of the most institutionally racist members of the EU, telling me that Britain is well past saving as it has been taught to be racist through social media and their time is up.

I'm sorry if I don't accept that view. But I will not apologise for my stance!

I personally believe that the status quo in Britain is mostly divisive, and that the far right are now hanging on by their fingernails pandering to press and social media campaigns skewing the picture while bleating anything other than a hard BREXIT is "undemocratic".

What has any of that got to do with all the anti-EU sentiment stirred up in Britain, pre and post Brexit referendum?

Certainly interesting that you criticised a post on the basis of the nationality of the person who posted it. Perhaps you’ve been drinking the anti-EU koolaid too?

 

[EyeInTheSky]

Isn’t that Cnut fartrage collecting a near £80, 000 a year pension from the EU?

 

[Green_Red]

So you have no idea how trade deals work but you are a diabetic who isnt worried so nobody else should be? I would rather have the secure feeling that my life saving medicine is in guaranteed supply rather than hoping for the best it will be. Lets hope this does'nt bite you in the arse next year.

WTO rules impose a 10% tariff on goods. That's $1 on every $10. For most goods like food and medicine that is not the end of the world. The MFN rule also allows for the EU to declare the UK and trade reasonably with them. Hard Brexit is not ideal but people need to stop acting like the world is going to stop turning. It isn't...

 

[JPRouve]

What question?

I just see someone who lives in France, one of the most institutionally racist members of the EU, telling me that Britain is well past saving as it has been taught to be racist through social media and their time is up.

I'm sorry if I don't accept that view. But I will not apologise for my stance!

I personally believe that the status quo in Britain is mostly divisive, and that the far right are now hanging on by their fingernails pandering to press and social media campaigns skewing the picture while bleating anything other than a hard BREXIT is "undemocratic".

The question was, has the anti EU sentiment disappeared or will it disappear in the near future?

Also what has racism got to do with it, did I say that the UK was racist? And what is your experience with France when it comes to institutional racism?

 

[2ndTouch]

Stuff like “are EU our friends? Real friends wouldn’t punish you for leaving” is doing circles currently.

When folks start wondering about the friendship status of an entity they declared to be worse than Hitler years ago, when getting what they wished for is suddenly perceived as "punishment" the closer we get to March'19.
Brexiter butts approaching anchor ice, if I may use a German proverb

 

[SqueakyWeasel]

What has any of that got to do with all the anti-EU sentiment stirred up in Britain, pre and post Brexit referendum?

Certainly interesting that you criticised a post on the basis of the nationality of the person who posted it. Perhaps you’ve been drinking the anti-EU koolaid too?

My critique of the original post (answered further back in the thread) was valid in my opinion.

The original post by the French guy was a broad sweeping nationalistic appraisal of Britain saying give up now you're all racists so you deserve BREXIT!

If you think that is not worthy of a repost then look very deep within your soul!

 

[Pogue Mahone]

WTO rules impose a 10% tariff on goods. That's $1 on every $10. For most goods like food and medicine that is not the end of the world. The MFN rule also allows for the EU to declare the UK and trade reasonably with them. Hard Brexit is not ideal but people need to stop acting like the world is going to stop turning. It isn't...

The issue isn’t the cost of these tarrifs it’s the additional processes and admin burden needed to apply them. The supply and distribution of medicines operates to very fine margins, where timing is everything. If shipments get snarled up in the chaos predicted in and around ports, straight after hard Brexit, then there’s a very real chance that they will never make it to the pharmacy shelves in Britain. If they spend too long in the back of a truck, outside the required parameters for storage then they can’t be released. I know nothing about food distribution but can imagine similar issues cropping up.

 

[Kentonio]

WTO rules impose a 10% tariff on goods. That's $1 on every $10. For most goods like food and medicine that is not the end of the world. The MFN rule also allows for the EU to declare the UK and trade reasonably with them. Hard Brexit is not ideal but people need to stop acting like the world is going to stop turning. It isn't...

“Mr Green_Red, we have some good news and some bad news. The good news is that despite Project Fear and the scaremongering Remoaners, the rise in cost of your insulin is only going to be minor and of course is covered by the NHS anyway. The bad news is that it’s currently stuck on the back of a lorry in Calais. We’ll let your know in a few weeks when it turns up (or not).”

 

[Kentonio]

I feel like the mood music around Brexit is slowly changing. Too late?

Hard to tell. It should be too late, but it would be a very British thing to run it right down to the wire and then do a big dramatic last minute reversal in the name of common sense. Can’t bring myself to really hope for it though, given how totally fecked everything has been lately. Although we do have the governments economic impact reports coming out fairly soon. I think a lot will depend on how the press cover them. The Mail having a new editor could make for an interesting thing to watch.

 

[SqueakyWeasel]

The question was, has the anti EU sentiment disappeared or will it disappear in the near future?

Also what has racism got to do with it, did I say that the UK was racist? And what is your experience with France when it comes to institutional racism?

Your view, as I read it in your post #27230, was that things have got so bad with Britains' dislike of everything EU (read racism) that it's probably best we stop fighting for a better solution and cave in and just make the most of BREXIT.

Spoiler

I fear that it's more complicated than that, it's not simply too late but too fake. People have been taught to dislike the EU and other European countries, they are happy to blame continentals for every thing and remaining or a soft Brexit won't change that, the ingredients for Brexit are still there and they will come out at the first opportunity whether it is because the economy isn't great or because the UK want a particular deal/arrangement.
I have been in the "it's better if you stay" camp, from the beginning but thinking about it, it's a terrible idea and a very naive one, we don't trust you and you don't trust us, we are not on the same side and no amount of pretending will change that. A painful break is better than a poisonous relationship, we should both take the hit and move on.

Thank god that the rest of the EU do not see things in the same simplistic way.

As for Europe's 'treatment' of Britain while these talks are conducted:

Who can blame the people of a collective group of many countries protecting their own interests in bargaining talks? The simple fact is that Europe is stronger with Britain at the negotiating table and Britain is stronger with Europe at its side.

That this conversation even has to be had and has even become a part of this thread, while endorsing that sentiment, answers your second question!

 

[JPRouve]

Your view, as I read it in your post #27230, was that things have got so bad with Britains' dislike of everything EU (read racism) that it's probably best we stop fighting for a better solution and cave in and just make the most of BREXIT.


Thank god that the rest of the EU do not see things in the same simplistic way.

As for Europe's 'treatment' of Britain while these talks are conducted:

Who can blame the people of a collective group of many countries protecting their own interests in bargaining talks? The simple fact is that Europe is stronger with Britain at the negotiating table and Britain is stronger with Europe at its side.

That this conversation even has to be had and has even become a part of this thread, while endorsing that sentiment, answers your second question!

Well, don't read racism when it isn't there, the EU isn't a race, it's an institution and I'm talking about institutions here. As for the second sentence that's the point, can you name the problem that led to brexit?

 

[Walrus]

I'm not trying anything, do you really believe that the anti EU sentiment will disappear? It seems that a lot of people consider that the EU are punishing the UK and making brexit worse.

What I will say is that it is well documented that the anti-EU sentiment is stronger in the older generations. Younger generations of Brits voted overwhelmingly to remain. With that in mind - yes, I think that over time the UK population will become more pro-EU. That’s regardless of Brexit for the most part.

 

[SqueakyWeasel]

Well, don't read racism when it isn't there, the EU isn't a race, it's an institution and I'm talking about institutions here. As for the second sentence that's the point, can you name the problem that led to brexit?

Twist this around all you like (I can't be bothered to play your stupid mind games) … you wrote a very dismissive, and factually wrong, post about your interpretations of the feelings of the British people towards BREXIT and what you feel they should do.

I disagreed so lets leave it there!

 

[MoskvaRed]

The question was, has the anti EU sentiment disappeared or will it disappear in the near future?

Also what has racism got to do with it, did I say that the UK was racist? And what is your experience with France when it comes to institutional racism?

EU sentiment will not disappear but it will be (or would have been should I say) less widespread as the current generation of over-60s die off. If Cameron had not panicked due to UKIP (a party unable to win a seat except through the occasional weirdo defecting), this issue would have died down in the next 15-20 years apart from a very small number of hard right ideologues.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

What question?

I just see someone who lives in France, one of the most institutionally racist members of the EU, telling me that Britain is well past saving as it has been taught to be racist through social media and their time is up.

I'm sorry if I don't accept that view. But I will not apologise for my stance!

I personally believe that the status quo in Britain is mostly divisive, and that the far right are now hanging on by their fingernails pandering to press and social media campaigns skewing the picture while bleating anything other than a hard BREXIT is "undemocratic".

Here's another guy who lives in France , but this one's British born.
The only person who brought up racism was you and seemed to take umbrage that a French person has an opinion on the matter. Sounds a bit....

But while we're on the subject and having lived in both countries, guess which country is more xenophobic by far in my opinion.

His point was nothing to do with racism. EU isn't a race.
He meant and I agree, that this anti-EU (institution) feeling will not go away if the UK suddenly decided to stay. It will continue to fester and maybe the only answer is to experience what life is like outside the EU.

 

[SqueakyWeasel]

Here's another guy who lives in France , but this one's British born.
The only person who brought up racism was you and seemed to take umbrage that a French person has an opinion on the matter. Sounds a bit....

But while we're on the subject and having lived in both countries, guess which country is more xenophobic by far in my opinion.

His point was nothing to do with racism. EU isn't a race.
He meant and I agree, that this anti-EU (institution) feeling will not go away if the UK suddenly decided to stay. It will continue to fester and maybe the only answer is to experience what life is like outside the EU.

I live in Germany … and I speak loads with JP in the rugby threads but I guess racism blinds some people!

 

[JPRouve]

Twist this around all you like (I can't be bothered to play your stupid mind games) … you wrote a very dismissive, and factually wrong, post about your interpretations of the feelings of the British people towards BREXIT and what you feel they should do.

I disagreed so lets leave it there!

No, that's too easy. You can't go around claiming that I called people racist and act as if you were in the right, you also can't act as if the Anti EU sentiment wasn't a thing otherwise there would be no solution to find. Also why do you dodge the question, just name the problem that led to Brexit.

EU sentiment will not disappear but it will be (or would have been should I say) less widespread as the current generation of over-60s die off. If Cameron had not panicked due to UKIP (a party unable to win a seat except through the occasional weirdo defecting), this issue would have died down in the next 15-20 years apart from a very small number of hard right ideologues.

15-20 years is a long time, I feel that it would be better if you leave and then eventually comeback if you want to because by staying you don't really get rid of Brexit or the narrative. If you leave and are out of the EU, you will be able to figure things out without having the EU subject pollute everything and if you want you can get rid of the part of the current political class that is either on the fence and clearly anti EU.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I live in Germany … and I speak loads with JP in the rugby threads but I guess racism blinds some people!

Yes it does , doesn't it.

 

[Kentonio]

15-20 years is a long time, I feel that it would be better if you leave and then eventually comeback if you want to because by staying you don't really get rid of Brexit or the narrative. If you leave and are out of the EU, you will be able to figure things out without having the EU subject pollute everything and if you want you can get rid of the part of the current political class that is either on the fence and clearly anti EU.

That’s the theoretical solution that sounds like it makes sense. The trouble is however that if the U.K. leave the EU with a hard separation, we inevitably become a lot closer to the US and that’s extremely dangerous for the fabric of U.K. society. The idea of a U.K. just floating around not tied to any bigger bloc and realizing the error of its ways, sounds good on paper but is very unlikely in practice.

For those of us who like our families back home having things like the NHS, that is not an acceptable outcome.

 

[SqueakyWeasel]

Yes it does , doesn't it.

There are not enough fecking emojiis

 

[Adisa]

I fear that it's more complicated than that, it's not simply too late but too fake. People have been taught to dislike the EU and other European countries, they are happy to blame continentals for every thing and remaining or a soft Brexit won't change that, the ingredients for Brexit are still there and they will come out at the first opportunity whether it is because the economy isn't great or because the UK want a particular deal/arrangement.
I have been in the "it's better if you stay" camp, from the beginning but thinking about it, it's a terrible idea and a very naive one, we don't trust you and you don't trust us, we are not on the same side and no amount of pretending will change that. A painful break is better than a poisonous relationship, we should both take the hit and move on.

You do have a point. A huge chunk of the seventy something percent that think Brexit isn't going well think we should just up sticks and leave. Not that they're against Brexit.
It would shock you the percentage of people that believe the EU is at fault for the Ireland shambles.
This country has been bombarded with anti European propaganda for the best part of forty years. The last two years will do nothing to change it.
I feel this country needs to leave to realise how much better it is to be in the EU. You don't realise how valuable something is until it's gone. If we crash out, I can almost guarantee we would be back in withing two or three decades.

 

[JPRouve]

That’s the theoretical solution that sounds like it makes sense. The trouble is however that if the U.K. leave the EU with a hard separation, we inevitably become a lot closer to the US and that’s extremely dangerous for the fabric of U.K. society. The idea of a U.K. just floating around not tied to any bigger bloc and realizing the error of its ways, sounds good on paper but is very unlikely in practice.

For those of us who like our families back home having things like the NHS, that is not an acceptable outcome.

You are right but the problem is that the EU is moving toward more integration and the longer you stay the more difficult it's going to leave. There is a real choice to make, it's not about being in the EU because you are worried about the US, you need to be in it for it otherwise the current doubts will come back, it can't be a forced affiliation or feel like it.

 

[Kentonio]

You are right but the problem is that the EU is moving toward more integration and the longer you stay the more difficult it's going to leave. There is a real choice to make, it's not about being in the EU because you are worried about the US, you need to be in it for it otherwise the current doubts will come back, it can't be a forced affiliation or feel like it.

I know, there is no easy answer to any of this.

 

[Adisa]

Past Labour and Tory governments have blamed almost every domestic policy failure on the EU.
Our leaders really don't have vision. What did they think was going to happen? Cameron spent the majority of his career bashing the EU, then expected people to believe a few months that of campaign.

 

[Green_Red]

“Mr Green_Red, we have some good news and some bad news. The good news is that despite Project Fear and the scaremongering Remoaners, the rise in cost of your insulin is only going to be minor and of course is covered by the NHS anyway. The bad news is that it’s currently stuck on the back of a lorry in Calais. We’ll let your know in a few weeks when it turns up (or not).”

Did you see the tailbacks in Kent the other day to Dover? Not related to Brexit... People acting like there is going to be a complete shutdown in infrastructure, like as if the Channel tunnel is just going to shut down and nothing will get through, or all the ships travelling the globe will just stop and not enter UK ports. It's getting beyond ridiculous.

The issue isn’t the cost of these tarrifs it’s the additional processes and admin burden needed to apply them. The supply and distribution of medicines operates to very fine margins, where timing is everything. If shipments get snarled up in the chaos predicted in and around ports, straight after hard Brexit, then there’s a very real chance that they will never make it to the pharmacy shelves in Britain. If they spend too long in the back of a truck, outside the required parameters for storage then they can’t be released. I know nothing about food distribution but can imagine similar issues cropping up.

Easy, people exporting to the UK, create a GL account, record the WTO tariff, pay at the end of the year. Business continues as usual. Not sure what field you work in mate but accountants record businesss taxes and pay them at the end of the month or year all the time. Its called a liability account on a general ledger.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Easy, people exporting to the UK, create a GL account, record the WTO tariff, pay at the end of the year. Business continues as usual. Not sure what field you work in mate but accountants record businesss taxes and pay them at the end of the month or year all the time. Its called a liability account on a general ledger.

Again, nothing of this has anything to do with moving goods across borders with additional tasks/paperwork that didn’t previously exist. Which will be the issue here.

 

[2ndTouch]

Did you see the tailbacks in Kent the other day to Dover? Not related to Brexit... People acting like there is going to be a complete shutdown in infrastructure, like as if the Channel tunnel is just going to shut down and nothing will get through, or all the ships travelling the globe will just stop and not enter UK ports. It's getting beyond ridiculous.

You really might want to educate yourself about such matters, like the customs clearance capacities of the Eurotunnel, for example. You'd be surprised...
There are none, but shhh, don't tell anyone, k?

 

[diarm]

Did you see the tailbacks in Kent the other day to Dover? Not related to Brexit... People acting like there is going to be a complete shutdown in infrastructure, like as if the Channel tunnel is just going to shut down and nothing will get through, or all the ships travelling the globe will just stop and not enter UK ports. It's getting beyond ridiculous.

There won't be a complete breakdown but its blatantly obvious there are going to be enormous delays. A huge percentage of the supply chain for an enormous population is going to suddenly be subject to checks and beaurocracy which wasn't there before.

You've said yourself that there were tailbacks the other day under the very relaxed status quo. Add those to the litany of checks that are coming and what are you left with?

Perfectly sane people who raised doubts about how the brexit negotiations we're going to play out spent months being called scare mongerers and worse. This feels the same - people need to stop playing silly politics and start preparing for the worst. Then if it's an overreaction great, and if it's anywhere in between you'll be prepared.

 

[Green_Red]

Again, nothing of this has anything to do with moving goods across borders with additional tasks/paperwork that didn’t previously exist. Which will be the issue here.

Yes, but if you take what the Irish government are doing, hiring 1000 additional poeple for the customs department to deal with the extra load, thats just what is going to have to happen. It's not that difficult. All shipping companies work off itineries and know what they are hauling before it is picked up. Hundreds of countries send goods all around the world daily without an FTA with the EU and it doesn't affect trade.

 

[Kentonio]

Did you see the tailbacks in Kent the other day to Dover? Not related to Brexit... People acting like there is going to be a complete shutdown in infrastructure, like as if the Channel tunnel is just going to shut down and nothing will get through, or all the ships travelling the globe will just stop and not enter UK ports. It's getting beyond ridiculous.

Currenty it takes an average of 2 minutes for a truck to pass customs with our frictionless borders. Studies show that even another 2 minutes delay to that process would result in 30 mile tailbacks. What do you think it going to happen if suddenly those goods start having to be manually inspected?

 

[Rajma]

You really might want to educate yourself about such matters, like the customs clearance capacities of the Eurotunnel, for example. You'd be surprised...
There are none, but shhh, don't tell anyone, k?

It's not about the application of tariffs themselves and sorting out the related paperwork...I used to live by the Belorussian border (essentially that's the status of the country UK is gonna take after leaving with no deal) and just checking/inspecting one Truck takes around 1.5-2 hours (it can't be done any quicker no matter the amount of people, while right now full process takes only 2 minutes in the case of UK) - I mean you have to be pretty stupid to not understand the enormous implications.

What @Kentonio said...

 

[JPRouve]

Yes, but if you take what the Irish government are doing, hiring 1000 additional poeple for the customs department to deal with the extra load, thats just what is going to have to happen. It's not that difficult. All shipping companies work off itineries and know what they are hauling before it is picked up. Hundreds of countries send goods all around the world daily without an FTA with the EU and it doesn't affect trade.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding this, but hundred of countries sending goods all around the world would mean hundreds of entry/exit points and most trading blocks trade mainly within their trading block.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Yes, but if you take what the Irish government are doing, hiring 1000 additional poeple for the customs department to deal with the extra load, thats just what is going to have to happen. It's not that difficult. All shipping companies work off itineries and know what they are hauling before it is picked up. Hundreds of countries send goods all around the world daily without an FTA with the EU and it doesn't affect trade.

I did for 30 years. This is not the same thing at all. You are talking about long haul shipments which are not so time sensitive.
No port is equipped to cope with such traffic that needs to be rapidly dealt with and cleared through.

Shipping a container from Australia to the UK that could take 10 weeks if you're lucky or 4 months if you're not is not the same as having urgent items in a truck on a ferry or by Eurotunnel that needs to be at the destination within hours or days. The documentation has to be ready as well. If you're shipping the container from Australia you have all the time in the world to have the documentation ready and processed.

 

[Honest John]

The question was, has the anti EU sentiment disappeared or will it disappear in the near future?

Also what has racism got to do with it, did I say that the UK was racist? And what is your experience with France when it comes to institutional racism?

As far as I could see there was no widespread anti-EU sentiment before the referendum. This was entirely whipped up by the leavers. You had the eurosceptics in parliament, who have been there forever and a day, then maybe a few people who took the view that all these Polish people were taking our jobs. That's it. I doubt hardly anyone knew what we pay into the EU, or what we get back, or how it is used. I can't find a single person who can tell me which part of EU legislation has had any major impact on their lives.

I run an engineering Company. As part of the BSI accreditation I am supposed to assess the impact this business has on the residential neighbours who are adjacent to the factory. In 26 years of the Company being here we have never received a single complaint or letter or any word whatsoever that we are having any negative impact on them. However, if I created a questionnaire and sent it to every household in our immediate vicinity I bet there would be some who would come up with all manner of issues. Why? Because you asked the bloody question and people feel obliged to reply. Their replies may not have anything whatsoever to do with the question asked. They will often reflect general disgruntlement. If they then got some no-win-no-fee legal beagle to front up their concerns then 26 years of peace could turn into a real headache for the business.

This, I believe, is what happened in the referendum.

Once leave won anyone who voted that way were forced, when questioned, to come up with reasons why - and suddenly they became experts on EU legislation and how we were being run by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels.

Concerns that for 42 years hardly featured in people's every-day gripes - outside of some right-wing groups, the media and Parliament.


People did have genuine concerns about the level of net migration but I would not have said that those concerns were anywhere near the level of 'lets leave the EU to solve them'

Farage and Ukip were responsible for whipping that sentiment up in that regard. Using a load of over-simplistic populist arguments that smacked of the Nazi's blaming the Jews for all the ills that their country faced in the 20's and 30's

Just like in Germany back then, it gained support here from people who were unhappy with successive governments failing to address their issues. Scapegoats were needed and as usual, found.


That said I truly believe that most people in the UK like Europe. Tens of thousands work in industries that export product there. Most realise that food prices have been so low purely because of the efficiencies that trading with the EU brings. They go there in their millions every year for holidays. They all benefit from frictionless travel, reciprocal health agreements and free roaming mobile phone use.

All of this is now under threat.

I am hoping that people are now seeing the light and maybe something will change.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

If we crash out, I can almost guarantee we would be back in withing two or three decades.

Probably banging on the gates within 2 or 3 weeks, or months at most.

 

[chicha14]

How will Brexit affect me looking for work in England on my Portuguese passport?

 

[JPRouve]

@Honest John Thanks for your answer, though I feel that you are underestimating the sovereignty issues, impression of distance from the EU or anti democratic image that has been spread by politicians and medias. There is also the Us vs them where them are in particular Germany and France, people seem to forget that until not so long ago the idea that Merkel was ruling the EU was still prevalent in the press, among politicians and on message boards, this is a big problem. Now I totally agree on the manipulation part and the idea that people where mainly unhappy with the situation in general, the problem is that the anti-EU side is important and influential.

 

[SqueakyWeasel]

Did you see the tailbacks in Kent the other day to Dover? Not related to Brexit... People acting like there is going to be a complete shutdown in infrastructure, like as if the Channel tunnel is just going to shut down and nothing will get through, or all the ships travelling the globe will just stop and not enter UK ports. It's getting beyond ridiculous.

Those tailbacks were the result of the start of new border checks … directly relating to BREXIT.

I should know, I was caught up in them.

This is what is still in front of me 3 hours after being one hour early for my crossing last Wednesday evening (the photo is taken at midnight and there were mothers with young children in the cars adjacent to me).

I finally got on a ferry 5 hours later than the one I booked. Got held up in the morning traffic across Europe and missed the start of the working day back in Germany.