I dont understand why your entire political establishment is allowing Farage & JRM to drive the country off a cliff. Why the feck does no deal brexit look the most likely outcome at this stage?
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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Agree with you on this. The left, certainly aided by Corbyn's un-invisibility cloak, have become useful idiots to us right-wingers.
Apparently the ultimate aim is that in 20 years time the UK will have managed to obtain what they already have but have to suffer for 20 years to achieve that.
Or something like that. I know it makes no sense.
The genius of brexit is making it look like the elite want us to stay in the EU or that brexit was some sort of protest. I think most revolutions have that facade.
The reason no one seems to be able to stop hard brexit is simple.
Freedom of Movement.
It's the elephant in the room no one wants to talk about. That and the fact some people on the left and right, have a fantasy of a post brexit utopia.
Because we are run by useless idiots.
I mean using this forum as a microcosm:
the only Tory voter who has openly abandoned their party is Paul. But he had already left before Brexit. Everybody else was either a Brexiteer (Nick, both Vidics, Fearless) or hasn't left despite opposition to Brexit (Colin I guess).
OTOH, half the Labour support openly wants to ditch the party on this issue and some did vote Lib Dem.
The Tories are licking their lips at turning the country into an American style society.
Paul did admit he would have voted for Cameron if he had to vote, comical.
I agree with most of that. The window was there and was indeed squandered. I think we’re at a point now where the only positive route is to step back and consolidate, focus on the immediate crisis problems, and look ahead for the bigger improvements. If we insist on them now, then the house is going to burn down around us.
They see the EU as a neoliberal leviathan. His comrades in ideology want to leave the EU and develop and new socialist state.
Personally I think Corbyn is loving Brexit because 1. it can destroy the Tories for a generation and 2. it removes us from the EU.
I’m sure privately him and McDonnell feel the pieces are falling into place for them.
In truth it was always a strong possibility given the complexity of the deal... I mean we have not even sorted out the Irish boarder which was always a pretty obvious sticking point... Let alone the technical details of a trade deal... I mean realistically I don't think even the blinkered brexiteer brigade expect services in general or even a special financial services deal to be on the table now...
That’s definitely what’s happening.
Of course, this is shitting over the vision a lot of the more progressive Labour voters would have for Britain as an open-minded, welcoming, inclusive and integrated European democracy.
Hence he’s faffing around in the margins, trying to be all things to all men while actually achieving the square root of feck all.
Did I. I don't know - I hadn't lived in the UK for 8 years before the 2015 election and didn't follow UK politics at all after I left until the pound started nosediving in November 2015.
One thing is for certain I wouldn't have voted for Corbyn and now I wouldn't vote for the Tories or Labour.
But it's hypothetical. The first time I ever voted as an 18 year old I voted Labour.
That's how I see it too and when you listen to the answer that he gave to Piers Morgan, he is offering hard brexit.
With a different flavour cake to eat. But this was obvious from before the referendum.
All of this could be true even if Corbyn took a more pro remain stance.
He's on a different planet if he thinks he wouldn't get any blowback when hard brexit turnns to shit.
.
You have to admit that the man is smooth though.
I don't rate him at all. You know how poorly I rate the current government, somehow I rate him lower.
The problem is that it is deeper underlying issues that created these crises (Brexit and Trump). So beating them without addressing inequality (for example) will just mean we get a worse repeat sooner or later.
It's not just domestic politics though, is it? There is also a messaging problem here. Jeremy Corbyn campaigning for Brexit is like Indian techies who came to US on H1 getting citizenship and then protesting H1. A liberal all inclusive society friendly to immigrant population (both legal and forced) is at odds with the anti-globalistic view of Corbyn. The guy is doing his best to manage his message not to piss off both sides. I don't get why Jeremy Corbyn should be held to a higher standard than any other politician but hard lefties now insisting younger people in favor of Brexit to see the bigger picture to get a far left candidate are the same who wouldn't compromise on Sanders.
Right, so your issue is that the left wants compromise with Corbyn but not with the Dems. The problem is the political situations in both countries are very different.
It's been discussed in this thread that Labour voters have 2 viable options if Corbyn decided a firm stance wrt Brexit - Tories and LD, and they've shown that it's not impossible that they'll leave. OTOH, his manifesto which focused on welfare programs was popular and the #1 reason people voted for him (confirmed in polling).
In the US, you have universally popular positions (healthcare, college, min wage, money out of politics) for which nobody else has shown consistent sincere support. The halfway solution of ACA, wage reductions with NAFTA, gutting welfare (all supported by Dems) have led to a situation where voters are apathetic/drawn to the right. In 2008, Bush and the GOP had record bad numbers, much worse than anything Trump has now. The war, Katrina, and the crisis had together destroyed all credibility. Yet within 2 years the situation was overturned. In those 2 years, what Obama delivered was compromise solutions and a thank-you to Wall St. By 2016 the GOP had taken a frightening majority in state races, and both houses of Congress, and then the presidency. So the left's fear is that by repeating the compromise formula, you just keep ceding ground to the right. The right further kills voting, reduces welfare, kills healthcare, yet the simple/clear answer to that isn't coming from the Dems. Hillary 2016 would have repeated this pattern, possibly paving the way for something worse. Which is why Bernie - basic social safety nets could prevent the descent into more right-wing lunacy, restore some bargaining power to labour, and eventually attack the root (corporate power).
Yes, it's in this very thread. You would have voted for the very man that gave you what you now hate.
Corbyn pre the election wasn't seen as an electoral asset, remember the Blairites took charge of Labour remain and put Alan Johnson in charge, you can't blame Corbyn for the strategy.
Having said that Labour now should be full remain
Having said that Labour now should be full remain
Well if I did, you are still saying that the people who voted for Brexit have no responsibility at all. If Cameron then also voted for Brexit, yes.
If I'd have been living in the UK I would have given it more consideration before I voted. I have always only voted for what was in my interest, not some ideology.
He didn't give it to me or to you. What I hate is the idea that Britain is trying to destroy itself and even more so through gross stupidity.
Another hypothetical question: who would you have voted for in the 2015 election?
The thing that gets me is the pretense that an utter capitulation to the hard-Brexit nutters was the only option open to Labour.
Yes the country voted to leave the EU but agreeing that it voted to rip itself from the SM and CU and it was an overwhelming endorsement to end freedom of movement - just because Nigel said so - is at best disingenuous. There's been no effort either by Labour or the Tories to build a consensus on this. I saw a Tweet by a commentator recently that said the problem post-referendum is that the 52% has been revised up to 100% and the 48% has been revised down to 0%. When you think of the damage Brexit will do to Labour's core support then the only reason why I can think of Labour having the position they hold is to benefit from the chaos the govt will be blamed for. In itself it's absolutely fecking horrible to think the party is willing to do that.
Yes the country voted to leave the EU but agreeing that it voted to rip itself from the SM and CU and it was an overwhelming endorsement to end freedom of movement - just because Nigel said so - is at best disingenuous. There's been no effort either by Labour or the Tories to build a consensus on this. I saw a Tweet by a commentator recently that said the problem post-referendum is that the 52% has been revised up to 100% and the 48% has been revised down to 0%. When you think of the damage Brexit will do to Labour's core support then the only reason why I can think of Labour having the position they hold is to benefit from the chaos the govt will be blamed for. In itself it's absolutely fecking horrible to think the party is willing to do that.
The whole “left eating itself whilst the right consolidates power” thing is just so fecking exhausting. Physically and emotionally. I’m so, so tired of arguing about it. If Trump potentially appointing a SCOTUS that could define American politics for decades, even reversing the likes of Roe vs Wade isn’t proof enough that trendy ideological activism achieves feck all in the real world, and only serves to throw the truly worst marginalised under the bus in the name of chin stroking faux socialist (and super white) bro-wankery, I don’t know what will.
I want Corbyn to succeed. I want Bernie to be right. I want a fairer, free-er, better society, but all I can see is things getting inexorably - and potentially irrevocably - worse, because no one wants to concede a fecking inch in the process of getting there.
Maybe this is how the Right win? By utterly demoralising us to the point of indifference? By convincing us to never compromise and unite behind the best of our beliefs, when snipping, slamming and shaming each other for the minutiae of our differences is so much easier, and more fleetingly fulfilling.
feck the world, I wanna get off. Where the good drugs at? @Dwazza
I want Corbyn to succeed. I want Bernie to be right. I want a fairer, free-er, better society, but all I can see is things getting inexorably - and potentially irrevocably - worse, because no one wants to concede a fecking inch in the process of getting there.
Maybe this is how the Right win? By utterly demoralising us to the point of indifference? By convincing us to never compromise and unite behind the best of our beliefs, when snipping, slamming and shaming each other for the minutiae of our differences is so much easier, and more fleetingly fulfilling.
feck the world, I wanna get off. Where the good drugs at? @Dwazza
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I think the right win because they're less concerned with political purity and probably more pragmatic. It's easier to win an election from the right because your core support isn't going to hold you up to near-impossibly high standards. There were far more people from the left who refused to vote for Clinton because she wasn't the perfect liberal than there were those on the right who wouldn't vote for Trump because he wasn't a perfect conservative. The left seem impressed with their own virtuousness and often don't seem to notice that whilst they're busy patting themselves on the back the right is winning elections and their lives are being made worse as a result.
In this country I think opposition has become infectious. Especially those who felt alienated from the Blair years, all they've really known is opposition and my fear for the Labour movement is that increasingly it seems as if they're happy there. As long as they have their rallies and their protests and their hashtags I honestly don't think they'd swap that for an election win. Using the party as a protest voice, like a graduate degree course that follows on from being a Student Union member. No real expectation of getting anything done, just utter contentment if people are aware how unhappy you are at what's being done.
Within 5 years the Labour party conference will look like a phase 2 NUS meeting, passing motions condemning Manspreading and voicing a view on the plight of migrating geese.
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Clinton: 48.02%
Trump: 45.93%
Gary Johnson, Libertarian: 3.27%
Evan McMullin, GOP: 0.53%
Jill Stein, Green: 1.06%
So the right was more fragmented, and together had 49.73 of the vote, while Hillary and Stein together had 49.08%.
(Adding smaller parties, it gets to 49.88 and 49.21 respectively.)
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I’m largely of the opinion that history will always swing back and forth politically. A decade of Obama was always likely to yield a chance of a GOP Pres, just as a decade of Labour was likely to favour a dynamic new (but still obviously awful) Tory like Cameron... The hope was usually that the status quo would be slowly but surely pushed toward progress. Which it almost always has been. Save for, you know, the whole Dark Ages thing.
The difference now, is that while Cameron had to skew his Party left to react to the new status quo of the Labour 90s (such as legalising Gay marriage, etc) the modern Right have just rejected the entire notion of that, in favour of the political equivalent of shit posting, in an attempt to simply write off any Democratic/Labour position as almost apocalyptically evil. Rather than concede even the slimmest chance of compromise.
And in retaliation to this...rather than fight fire with fire, the left have decided that our public face should be wet and vague and inoffensive (e.g. Corbyn’s stance on Brexit) whilst our private face vociferously and exclusively goes after anyone who dissents within our own ranks!... It’s fecking mad! But, cool, whatever. It’s apparenly the new normal. It’s better to let the Right destroy democracy in real time, than try and win in the “wrong” way. Mmm’Kay?
Let’s all march toward destruction, safe in the knowledge we had ideologically good intentions. At least we’re white, ey lads? They’ll come for us last.
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Wonder what the government will do when their 'Plan A (B-Z)' of hoping Europe agrees to kick the ball further down the road is rejected. It's been one long blag to see how long they can get away with it. Over 2 years is quite impressive actually, but then there isn't an opposition so maybe not that difficult. But crunch time soon. If May gets desperate an settles for a bad deal her party won't vote for it. If she settles for 'no deal' then hopefully Labour won't go for it. Though on that point I'm less confident. I think her own MPs are more likely to vote against a bad deal than Labour is to vote against no deal.
So what if Labour vote against no deal? The EU will consider us a third country at that point regardless of Labour's position on it.
It would be like voting to change the captain whilst rowing the lifeboats away from the Titanic.
It would be like voting to change the captain whilst rowing the lifeboats away from the Titanic.
Oh deary me.
Danny Dyer gives a poorly articulated and jumbled attempt at and outraged rant, and becomes a YouTube comments section hero.
Whatever side of the argument you're on, Danny Dyer must never be referred to as 'a legend.' Never.
Danny Dyer gives a poorly articulated and jumbled attempt at and outraged rant, and becomes a YouTube comments section hero.
Whatever side of the argument you're on, Danny Dyer must never be referred to as 'a legend.' Never.
What this is shite your on about ?
There are people on here that are saying that if you vote for Labour you have no say in Brexit. It's Bollocks. You have to look at where you live and which party are best placed to challenge the Tories. If the Lib Dems stand a chance of winning your seat then by all means vote for them but if you live in an area that is Labour or Tory any right minded person has to vote labour. If for no other reason than Cameron brought us to the position we are in.
There is no win on Brexit. The minute that Cameron set the referendum the country was damned. I'm probably going to lose my job as I work in the Automotive industry. Even though I as I said my job is probably gone I don't blame labour. All of my blame lands front and centre with the Tories. If they hadn't started this we wouldn't be in this position.
How many non-white people d’you reckon had the righteous ideological privilege of abstaining from the Trump or Brexit votes? Considering the largest demographic bulk that voted Dem in 2016 was black women, and the biggest Remain epicentres were Urban multicultural cities, I’d say it’s a pretty fair bet that those most at risk from the potential Right Wing tyranny we’re edging toward, voted near unanimously for their own preservation, over some vanilla hipster ideal of a future Socialist paradise...
Conversely, I’d be pretty confident the majority of those who abstained from either, or voted for the likes of Jill Stein, or Harambe, or just, like, “didn’t want to engage in the whole Neoliberal political circus!” etc, were near universally woke white dickheads who were more than happy to lose a battle they were never going to suffer from, throwing a slew of more vulnerable minorities under the bus in the processs, in the name of proving some smug nebulous 6th form point about politics ..(They’re all the same man!! Except when actual fascists get to chose life long law makers, but whatever!).. and then arguing how this is actually a really good platform for a new future leftist utopia... if only we can shame everyone right of us into compliance...and also actually win back power somehow. But let’s not worry about that too much for another 20 years or so. Because (and here comes the rewind!) we’re largely white, and don’t urgently need to worry about it..
And I realise this may seem to you like a subtle paen for the good ol’ days of Blairite centrism. But it’s really not. I’ve been on the “new left” Corbynist side since near enough it’s befinings. I want what you want. But it’s not working, is it? I mean, it’s really really not!
And I just can’t imagine how anyone who isn’t comfortably white could look at our current reality of open aggy prejudice and friggin’ American baby jails, and think “this is still good.. it’s gonna turn around any minute now, if only we can call Graham Linehan a cnut enough”
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Anyone who outs Cameron as a wanker live on TV is a legend for that moment. He might be an arsehole before and after the fact but for that split second he bossed it.
If you want to blame anybody for this blame kids. We all know that most millennials would have voted remain but a large proportion of them just couldn't be bothered to get out and vote. This is the main reason that the referendum wen't the way it did.