Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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Well written post, not disagreeing just adding the point that other factors may arise that may impact the Brexit scenario that we currently cannot account for like this one:
with Poland, Hungary and Czech being threatened with fines:
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-e...lic-in-top-court-over-migration-idUKKBN1E02VB
@Adebesi I actually see a problem with an extension. The next budget period starts in 2020 and will be definitively created by 2019, the UK probably don't want to be liable until 2025 and the EU don't want to link itself with someone that could cause problems early in the 2020-2025 period. So I could see countries against an extension, particularly when it would be solely caused by political incompetence on both sides.
Yes, definitely.
Since we voted to leave I have felt that, from a very selfish point of view, the best thing that can happen for the UK now is for the EU to collapse, or have some kind of major existential crisis, preferably one not directly related to Brexit. Which would probably be down to migration and the fact that a lot of people in the EU - and especially in those countries - feel the same way as the majority of people in the UK do. The UK is not the only place with "somewhere vs anywhere" tensions.
Ive posted before about the weird, paradoxical feelings I had as a pro European Remainer who nevertheless understood how dysfunctional the EU can be and how it could be better. It leaves us a bit like the kid who cant play anymore and so takes his football home with him. If we arent going to be in the EU it would be better for us, very selfishly, if nobody else was either, then at least we would have a level playing field. But that is an uncomfortable feeling for someone who believes in the cause of European solidarity and a collective approach to tackling global problems.
I bloody hope there is an extension as the fixed term on my mortgage is up shortly before we are supposed to leave!
Yes very fair point. No way the UK could accept being on the hook for the next budget. Again, I think the public mood would be basically damn you all, if we are going to suffer then so be it, but we suffer on our terms, not yours.
And then like I said, the more we suffer the more we blame the EU for what will be seen by many here as a punitive refusal to negotiate in good faith. It sounds melodramatic but in the worse case scenario it plays out a bit like German reparations. The more the UK suffers the more damage it does to our relations, who knows how that situation plays out. That's why I hope the EU finds a way to make sure we're worse off out than in, but not too much worse off. Call it Goldilocks Brexit: not too damaging, not too advantageous, but just right.
On the three amigos taken to court. The problem is generally too simplified, every member of the EU is a European country and all European countries are part of the council of Europe at the exception of Belarus, the council of Europe has a range of charts and rules, one of them is the ECHR. So every European country has to shelter potential asylum seekers and study their cases, now the problem is that the asylum seekers that come to Europe come from the Bosphorus or the Mediterannean sea which means that they almost exclusively enter through Malta, Greece and Italy, in theory these countries are the ones that are supposed to receive all the asylum seekers, these are the countries where the asylum seekers have actual rights but because the EU as a solidarity chart, the other members have to help them (That's also why the Touquet agreement exist).
Now, the problem is quite obvious. The countries refusing to respect the principle of solidarity are in breach of something that is fundamental for the EU and they do it even though they knew from the beginning that it was there, ironically they themselves actively go against the EU homogeneity and should probably just be expelled, if you can't even show a little bit of solidarity there is no point being part of an union.
Now, the problem is quite obvious. The countries refusing to respect the principle of solidarity are in breach of something that is fundamental for the EU and they do it even though they knew from the beginning that it was there, ironically they themselves actively go against the EU homogeneity and should probably just be expelled, if you can't even show a little bit of solidarity there is no point being part of an union.
A good post - i think you are right about people being entrenched in their viewpoints. Just look at this thread!
I am not sure about an extention, but a transition period into "hard" brexit seems likely. If there is another general election in the next year then who knows what could happen.
Interesting point. Weirdly I'd say that since the whole process began I've become a lot more pro-European, largely due to the fact that it wasn't an issue I didn't really care about all that much at all before it became so prominent.
Even when the referendum was announced I'd been open to either side; while I didn't necessarily have major problems with the EU, there were/are undemocratic elements, I wasn't particularly keen on their treatment of Greece, and it did almost feel like irrespective of what happened the UK was always going to be on a bit of a different trajectory to Europe anyway.
But watching the campaign ensue kind of entrenched me into a pro-EU position because I had so little faith in the shambolic alternative. And I wonder if that's almost become a problem for Brexiters - they've gotten what they wanted, but in doing so they've created a generation of pro-European Brits who have become a lot more aware that they're pro-Europe due to how prominent the issue's become. Beforehand I didn't care all too much because being part of the EU was just something that was there.
That's also an interesting point. But I'm not so much talking about being pro or anti EU, or I guess it is but I'm not looking at it that way. It's more about pure national self interest, and by extension my own self interest as a person who resides on this island. If there is no EU then 1) we are not at a disadvantage relative to our neighbours in trade and 2) something better can actually emerge in its place - given "remain and reform" was always pure fantasy.
For me personally I think I'm exactly as pro European as I was before. But maybe I'd thought about it more than you, from what you said. It was quite consciously pro European and pro EU. And I still am. But I am also British and want whatever is going to make my life - and my kids' lives - easiest for the next 10+ years. From the perspective no EU is better than an EU that excludes us.
Interesting what Martin Schulz said. That's another possible variable. At the moment the EU wants to emphasise countries are better off in than out. Hence needing us to get a bad deal. But if they decide they want a more cohesive Europe maybe they'll change that and look to make leaving more palatable, so problem countries are emboldened to do that, leaving a committed core to pursue a federal Europe. Maybe the desire to maintain the EU in its current form and size will evolve onto a desire to trim down and reform the EU to make it work better.
It is a theory among political scientist, that the EU will eventually revert to the originals plus a handful of countries and that this group will go deeper into a federation. Personally, I believe that the EU should have never extend beyond Benelux, France, Italy, Germany at the exception of Spain, Austria and Portugal.
There are 2 parts to this.
One is one's feeling, vote, opinion on remaining in or leaving the EU. Whether it's good, bad or indifferent.
The second part is what is possible - this is more exasperating, everyone knows or should know what is possible and what the UK seem to be after is not possible so that's why the talks seem to be going nowhere. Are the Uk going to comply with the conditions by Sunday night or not?
You have the UK to thank for enlargement. We talked you into growing and then once we had our way decided you'd been right all along, and we left. You have to see the funny side.
Solidarity is one way to term it, a loss of sovereignty it how many others will see it in those countries. Verhofstadt said Poland should be punished or forced to leave the EU for not doing what they want.. which is essentially trying to blackmail them given that he knows the value of the EU market will likely force countries like Poland and Hungary to remain.
The problem really is that USE is becoming a real concept, and I'm just not sure whether countries would want to federate and essentially becomes states in a larger structure, given the huge dissimilarities the USE would have vs the USA (language, culture, history etc). It could happen and work well, but it could go badly wrong too.
No, they knew the rules when they applied, they knew everything about it . I totally understand if you don't want to help neighboring countries, it's not an obligation but in that case don't join a political union.
Not France was it? I actually don't know the answer but I know France resisted.Who had the bad idea of including you in the first place?
IIRC, everyone was favorable at the exception of France. His words are surprisingly contemporary:https://www.theguardian.com/world/1967/nov/28/eu.france
That's funny. "Yeah, seeing an attractive person naked is nice, but I don't want to see England naked."
Sure, but not just him. E.g
And they wonder why they are perceived to be so out of touch.
I’d actually be fascinated if another referendum on the whole thing was called again; imagine Leave won by bigger margin!
Imagine Remain won, UKIP would become relevant again.
Listening to Heseltine on Sky News (through wonders of modern technology I can watch Sky News on TV, amazing)
Someone in the UK talking some sense.
Someone in the UK talking some sense.
Of course, he isn't the only one. I should have responded in a better way.
Like everywhere else, within Europe you will find all the colors of Pro or Anti EU. Some are totally against it others are for a true and complete federation, Schulz represents the latter with others like Verhofstadt, these people are open about it but they are still a minority, most politicians aren't ready, mainly because it would mean far less power and chances to grab onto it.
Funnily enough, when I saw brexiteers enjoy the last German political conundrum, I told myself:"They don't want to see Schulz gain power, they really don't want that".
Edit: In France, I guess that it would be Cohn-Bendit.
Not at all, my first post to you was thought out and polite, you just decided to ignore the point I was making. As I say, it’s not even something that is up for debate but you were in an argumentative and agressive mode @Barca84
Funnily enough, my first post was in response to your ”polite and reasoned” reply to another poster that began:
”What is this hysterical nonsense?”
But do carry on.
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Something’s up
Surely something to report if it’s so specific?
Also do we think 07:50 or 19:50?
Typical ambiguous EU!
hehA European government would probably be better than the shower of shite we currently have governing us.
Surely something to report if it’s so specific?
Also do we think 07:50 or 19:50?
Typical ambiguous EU!
It says
President of the European Council
Press statement by President Tusk
Friday, 8 December 2017 07:50 CET
If so do you think you would pay more or less tax?
UK and Germany are the only net contributors so their taxes would be needed to support the rest and a number are real basket cases.
You keep repeating it and it's still not true.
Except they aren't the only net contributors.
Come on chaps tell me who the others are?
I accept Ireland may be about to become one and the rest?
I accept Ireland may be about to become one and the rest?
Already had this stupid debate with another bullshitter in here.
2007 from the BBC News Channel EU Budget
You're a parody of yourself at this stage.
I assume if you trust the BBC News Channel EU whatever, you'll also trust a report from the House of Commons, or maybe you won't because it doesn't go along with your bullshit claim?
Even the anti-EU rag the Telegraph said the following countries are net contributors
Finland, Denmark, Austria, Luxembourg, Belgium, Sweden, Italy, Netherlands, France, UK, Germany
Ireland were last year too!