Tell that to people living under communist rule, and those currently ruled by ISIS.
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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Tell that to people living under communist rule, and those currently ruled by ISIS.
False equivalency much?
I believe in Switzerland they must have a referendum on matters if 50,000 people ask for one.
What if you're a fisherman back in 1975, and you're seeing your industry impacted by a decision the government made on your behalf, would you want a democratic opportunity to reverse it?
You have one. The goddamn general election. Vote in it.
Urgh. At least read the wikipedia article or something and you may understand what I meant.
Not at all.
You can only assume that some decisions are too important for people to understand fully, yes?
If that's the case, it's a good job our country has 52% more intelligent people
I still don't see the triumph, democracy is an ancient system that happens to be pretty convenient when you have a relatively educated population because it allows the establishment to use the representativity argument when challenged. There is nothing triumphant about it, it's just practical.
Not at all.
You can only assume that some decisions are too important for people to understand fully, yes?
If that's the case, it's a good job our country has 52% more intelligent people
Nothing you say makes sense.
Which makes sense as you seemingly support this referendum.
What???
So your idea is for the government to make huge decisions like joining the EU, and if people disagree with this, then vote an alternative government to leave the EU?
Switzerland is more democratic than we are. The Swiss have a say in almost everything. I'd love that.
Helps educate people about the issue at hand, invests the decision with greater moral support, invests European integration with greater moral support (in the case of EU referendums), provides a degree of the checks and balances that are essential to democracy, etc. And yes it does cater to the people who claim their voice isn't heard, which is vital when you have people calling them idiots for making such a claim.
The problem here isn't the voting mechanism itself (even if it was used inappropriately in this case), it's all the underlying problems that have seen people repeatedly vote themselves towards Brexit.
Yes. That is called represantative democracy ffs.
And they can vote on a lot of things, but there's also a very high treshold for those referendums to actually succeed. As I said, please broaden your view beyond what The Sun has been telling you. It's not that hard. Ans by the way, the Swiss are rather dissatisfied atm because there's so much referendums in recent years it stalls political progress.
How is ignoring one half of your population, completely ignoring it, helping giving moral support to decisions? It doesn't and that is exactly what you are seeing right now in GB.
Your last sentence might be right, but that doesn't change the fact decisions like this shouldn't be put up in referendums.
The irony.
All you're doing is crying over the fact that you didn't get your way in the referendum, and now you see yourself and the other 48% as the ones who are more fairer minded, which you interpret as a failure of democracy.
I'll leave you to throw your toys out of the pram.
Obviously the triumph is in the obtaining the right, rather than being dictated to.
Think you may find he is not from the UK
Because majority got what the majority voted for in the most blunt, direct and fundamental way possible. There was no elected intermediary interpreting the will of the people, the people demonstrated their will themselves. That creates a greater sense of moral investment in the result. The people who voted for Brexit will feel more responsible for it now than if they had voted for it indirectly.
Obviously the fact that this was a rather inappropriate question to put to referendum and the subsequent narrow result make this a particularly contentious decision but I'm arguing in general terms here.
I couldn't care less about Brexit. It's a decision you will have to live with and which will likely never affect me. I will still remain a vivid opposer of the false song of direct democracy.
You obviously don't understand the fundamentals involved. And I bet you would have cried foul if remain had won by the same margin, crying about how your vote was ignored.
I see your point but we should always remember that most of the time the majority follows the will of opinion makers not their own, you probably noticed with the help of social media that a lot us have no idea about what we are talking about. We are well and truly sheeps.
The subject of direct vs representative democracy is probably worthy of it's own thread. No point derailing this one.
100% correct.
Boris gonna Boris
More sense in that article than we saw from Ian McEwan yesterday.
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...es-could-swing-second-eu-vote-says-ian-mcewan
Just a tad unhinged.
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...es-could-swing-second-eu-vote-says-ian-mcewan
Just a tad unhinged.
What is unhinged? More young people with the vote and more old people who voted to leave dead? Are the figures wrong?
The Putin bit is fecking embarrassing, what a complete imbecile of a man, and a scumbag to boot.
I think the best solution to this is no trade deal and issues are settled in court.
And everyone is two years older, and the older you are the more likely you'll vote leave for some reason. So I guess it would balance out somewhat.
Do you not think that the graphic descriptions of self-harm were a bit OTT? Or similarly, his line that the Brexit result has stirred something 'murderous' in us?
The histrionics are on a scale that you can't really take the man seriously.
We had politicians threatening war over Gibraltar, what he says is fair
A bit lyrical in the language for me but I don't disagree with what he is saying. Brexit was an act of self harm and it has created (or perhaps exposed) huge divides in society the origins of which (IMO) can be traced to Thatcher's governments of the 80's.
The current state of play in the UK saddens me greatly. Our only chance of stopping the social fragmentation of the nation that we have seen probably went south with New Labor's self destructing in the later stages of the Blair years.
I doubt it. It is a generational thing not strictly an age thing.
Sadly this looks to be the only way forward. Unfortunate that the UK doesn't want to respect said courts decisions anymore...
At some point brexiteers will need to understand that they need to negotiate their future deal with actual people, and not their imagined caricature of Brussels. They will need to convince those people, be they French, Spanish, Czech, German or Maltese, that the deal is in their interest (And those people don't give a flying feck what the Mail and Telegraph readership is being led to believe).
It's interesting. Brexit did obviously expose these huge cracks fragmenting society, but not sure how I'd link that back to Thatcher? Virtually all of England voted out, barring London, Leicester and the odd place here and there. Wasn't like leave votes were purely concentrated in places she fecked over like Merseyside or the NE.
Thatcher destroyed, or at the very least began the destruction of the fabric of British society that paved the way for the mess we now have. Change was needed economically but she waged a full on class war under the guise of economic reform. One of the few things I truly regret in life was voting for her once.
TBF that 100bl bill is a bit too much and I am very much pro EU. I think both EU and UK are fed up with one another and are finding excuses not to handle one another a decent deal. Its naive for the UK to think that one can show the middle finger to a set of rules/rights so many countries had invested on for decades and after that it would still be business as usual let alone expect to cherry pick a deal.
It's the principle. The assumption that youngsters know best, so the oldies should hurry up and die.
Please point out where he said that.
He simply pointed out a demographic fact and the reality that if the referendum were re-balloted in 2 years, hell I suspect if it were re-balloted now, the result would be a large swing in favour of remain yet for some stupid reason we are persisting in this monumental act of self harm.
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One noteworthy fact I recently read is the reality of some of Europe's top current political leaders. Grossly disproportionate number of politicians making decisions don't have children and no personal future stake in that future.
Macron
Merkel
T May
Gentolini
Rutte
Lofven
Bettel
Sturgeon
Juncker
Macron
Merkel
T May
Gentolini
Rutte
Lofven
Bettel
Sturgeon
Juncker
Should we take into account his wife children and grandchildren? It's apparently an important part of his life.
Of course we should, blood isn't everything.
That's how I see it but people might not see it that way.
Parents can love their adopted children or step-children just as much or even more than blood parents.