Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Full bodied red]

The recommendations were as follows:
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32016H0220(01)&qid=1456753373365

Which brings me back to the point of individual nations

But they're recommendations.

I'd have thought that an organisation which takes the design of cigarette packets so seriously that it imposes legislation on each member for that might have realised the importance and found the time to impose legislation on its members NOT to have 20%+ unemployment rates.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

But they're recommendations.

I'd have thought that an organisation which takes the design of cigarette packets so seriously that it imposes legislation on each member for that might have realised the importance and found the time to impose legislation on its members NOT to have 20%+ unemployment rates.

It's not quite the same thing.
One minute the EU is supposed to impose so many regulations on countries that they are hamstrung, next minute they don't impose enough regulations, which is it?

As far as I'm aware France have indeed implemented those recommendations.

 

[Full bodied red]

It's not quite the same thing.
One minute the EU is supposed to impose so many regulations on countries that they are hamstrung, next minute they don't impose enough regulations, which is it?

As far as I'm aware France have indeed implemented those recommendations.

Impose as few or as many regulations as they want - it's their train set.

It's a question of importance - the EU appears to have a different mindset to the average EU man in the street. Ask the unemployed in Greece, in Portugal, in Spain which is the most important - design of cigarette packets or a job ?

The thing about France - don't understand, so again please.

 

[Womp]

Given how much money England's football makes do you think they'll provide exceptions for it? I don't see it happening because then everyone would be calling for exceptions. Could hurt the sporting culture.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Impose as few or as many regulations as they want - it's their train set.

It's a question of importance - the EU appears to have a different mindset to the average EU man in the street. Ask the unemployed in Greece, in Portugal, in Spain which is the most important - design of cigarette packets or a job ?

The thing about France - don't understand, so again please.

How are the EU supposed to create jobs, the individual nations have to change their policies - we are not the United States of Europe but a union of nations.
In my earlier post today I outlined what I believe would enhance the chances of more employment in France and as I also said I don't know the policies of individual nations like Greece, Portugal or Spain, do you?

What don't you understand about what I said about France?

 

[Stanley Road]

How are the EU supposed to create jobs, the individual nations have to change their policies - we are not the United States of Europe but a union of nations.
In my earlier post today I outlined what I believe would enhance the chances of more employment in France and as I also said I don't know the policies of individual nations like Greece, Portugal or Spain, do you?

What don't you understand about what I said about France?

You are separating things to suit your argument.

If the eu don't force rules then stop paying them to think of ceilings and floors

If they do enforce laws then they are shit at it. I know they dont.

It all adds up to an entity that is a waste of money.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

You are separating things to suit your argument.

If the eu don't force rules then stop paying them to think of ceilings and floors

If they do enforce laws then they are shit at it. I know they dont.

It all adds up to an entity that is a waste of money.

I am, lol

Here's the new cigarette packet in the UK after leaving the EU

 

[Full bodied red]

Agree with you about unemployment in France - and I'd lay it firmly at the door of the unions, who block every attempt to change Labour Laws to make it more attractive for employers to hire employees. Remember this ?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ory-country-stupid-labour-laws-communist.html

As for other countries - I'm like you. I don't know the laws in each individual country. But I'll give you an example that I do know of.

In Italy, major Logistics companies with big warehouses employing hundreds or thousands of people, hire their employees from the unions - not the temping agencies like Blue Arrow, Adecco and Ranstad as they do in the UK and down here. To me, it's so obvious that is a great idea. Unions and Employers working together to provide jobs. Why don't FO or CGT do that instead of non-stop confrontation ?

OK...I understand now. I thought you might have been talking about cigarette packets.

Yes, as far as I'm aware, the French Government are ' in the process of implementing ' the EU Recommendations, whatever that means.

Doesn't seem to be working yet, though, does it ? Maybe legislation would be more effective, but then again, quite a few countries in the EU have form when it comes to ignoring EU legislation if it doesn't suit them or they simply can't do it - France being one of them.

 

[711]

I've never quite understood the 'NHS will fall apart without immigrants' argument.
Just guarantee visas, residence, nationality, whichever it takes according to need, the UK need that is.
Sorted.

 

[Full bodied red]

You are separating things to suit your argument.

If the eu don't force rules then stop paying them to think of ceilings and floors

If they do enforce laws then they are shit at it. I know they dont.

It all adds up to an entity that is a waste of money.

Ah...But EU money wasted by one person is easy money earned by another person. And you guys in the UK wouldn't even have to come over here to get it.


Secretary of State,

Dept. for the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA),
Nobel House,
17, Smith Square,
London SW1P 3JR.


16 May 2013.

Dear Secretary of State,



A friend, who is in farming at the moment, has recently received a cheque for £3,000 from the Rural Payments Agency for not rearing pigs and I would like to join the ‘not rearing pigs’ business.

In your opinion, what is the best kind of farm not to rear pigs on, and which is the best breed of pig not to rear? I want to be sure I approach this endeavour in keeping with all government policies, as dictated by the EU under the Common Agricultural Policy. I would prefer not to rear bacon pigs, but if this not the type you want not rearing, I will just as gladly not rear porkers. Are there any advantages in not rearing rare breeds such as Saddlebacks or Gloucester Old Spots, or are there too many farmers not rearing these already?

As I see it, the hardest part of this programme will be keeping an accurate record of just how many pigs I haven’t reared. Are there any EU or Government or Local Authority courses on this?

My friend is very satisfied with this business. He has been rearing pigs for forty years or so, and the best annual return he ever made on them was £1,422 in 1978; that is, until this year, when he received your cheque for £3,000 for not rearing any.

If I were to get £3,000 for not rearing fifty pigs, will I be entitled to £6,000 for not rearing a hundred? I plan to operate on a small scale at first, holding myself down to about 4,000 pigs not raised, which will mean about £240,000 for the first year. However, as I become more expert in not rearing pigs, I plan to be more ambitious, perhaps increasing to, say, 40,000 pigs not reared in my second year, for which I should expect about £2.4 million from your department.

Incidentally, I wonder if I would be eligible to receive EU tradable carbon credits for all these pigs not producing harmful and polluting methane gases?

Another point: these pigs that I plan not to rear will not eat 2,000 tonnes of cereals. I understand that the EU also pay farmers not to grow crops, so will I qualify for set-aside payments for not growing cereals in order not to feed the pigs I don’t rear?

In order to diversify, I am also considering the ‘not milking cows’ business, so please send any information leaflets you have on that too, please. Would you also include the current EU advice on set-aside fields? Can this be done on an e-commerce basis of ‘virtual’ fields of which I seem to have several thousand hectares?

In view of the above, you will realise that I shall be totally unemployed and will, therefore, qualify for unemployment benefits over and above the monies that I shall receive from the EU via DEFRA’s Rural Payments Agency.

I shall, of course, be voting for your party at the next General Election.

Yours Faithfully

 

[Ubik]

I've never quite understood the 'NHS will fall apart without immigrants' argument.
Just guarantee visas, residence, nationality, whichever it takes according to need, the UK need that is.
Sorted.

It's usually a response to the "they're a drain on our essential services and we can't cope" line.

 

[Rams]

Unfortunately, 52% of people in the UK chose to believe the lies of Farrage and Johnson rather than the 48% who chose to believe the lies of Cameron and Osborne.

And both the UK Government and the EU are now telling lies - everything has just moved up to the next level of liers.

And you guys need to remember that there are plenty of people in Euope who are just as worried about will happen to their jobs and taxes if they can't export Tariff Free to the UK. This isn't a one way street - it's only the politicians who will have you believe it's a one way street.

Anyway, what is interesting, is that the Knuckleheads in Brussels / Luxemburg / Strasbourg have said that any differences during the negotiations must be settled by the ECJ. They seem to have forgotten that after 30.03.2019, the ECJ will have been written out of the UK's legislation and will have no precedence in UK Law. Any ECJ judgements, therefore, can be simply ignored by the UK without breaking any international laws, only EU laws. But as the UK will no longer be in the EU, etc.....

And you think it's only the UK that has idiots for politicians.

Yes because that pesky EU is the root of all evil and Britain is much better off out, leading the rest of world into prosperity as we enter this glorious period of new British World domination and we negotiate those neoliberal continentals in to a pulp with our brilliant politicians. And Britain will show Europe how it's done with our state of the art infrastructure, technology, NHS and housing. Made in Britain will become the the standard of the World. Britannia rule the waves!


meanwhile, back on planet earth..

 

[Mozza]

I've never quite understood the 'NHS will fall apart without immigrants' argument.
Just guarantee visas, residence, nationality, whichever it takes according to need, the UK need that is.
Sorted.

Have you ever tried getting a UK visa? I have. Our system is expensive and the forms complicated. We will also be competing with nations where the population isn't hostile to foreigners, and where the currency hasn't devalued by 15%

 

[711]

Have you ever tried getting a UK visa? I have. Our system is expensive and the forms complicated. We will also be competing with nations where the population isn't hostile to foreigners, and where the currency hasn't devalued by 15%

Oh noes, we'll be doomed. Desperate stuff. People will be able to enter the US, Australia etc ok, but not the UK, our requirements are impossible and can never be changed. Hostile to foreigners? Some people are of course, yet we seem to be one of the most successfully multicultural nations on earth, the mayor of our capital the son of a muslim immigrant. Currency is a good point, but it's fallen before, the rate of immigration hasn't.

Ubik was right, it generally is a response to "they're a drain on our essential services and we can't cope", I just get fed up of poor arguments on both sides.

 

[Mozza]

Oh noes, we'll be doomed. Desperate stuff. People will be able to enter the US, Australia etc ok, but not the UK, our requirements are impossible and can never be changed. Hostile to foreigners? Some people are of course, yet we seem to be one of the most successfully multicultural nations on earth, the mayor of our capital the son of a muslim immigrant. Currency is a good point, but it's fallen before, the rate of immigration hasn't.

Ubik was right, it generally is a response to "they're a drain on our essential services and we can't cope", I just get fed up of poor arguments on both sides.

Sadiq khan stood in London.

We have a people hostile enough to foreigners that they voted out of the EU to stop free movement, something that will undoubtedly hurt them financially.

 

[Stanley Road]

Ah...But EU money wasted by one person is easy money earned by another person. And you guys in the UK wouldn't even have to come over here to get it.


Secretary of State,

Dept. for the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA),
Nobel House,
17, Smith Square,
London SW1P 3JR.


16 May 2013.

Dear Secretary of State,



A friend, who is in farming at the moment, has recently received a cheque for £3,000 from the Rural Payments Agency for not rearing pigs and I would like to join the ‘not rearing pigs’ business.

In your opinion, what is the best kind of farm not to rear pigs on, and which is the best breed of pig not to rear? I want to be sure I approach this endeavour in keeping with all government policies, as dictated by the EU under the Common Agricultural Policy. I would prefer not to rear bacon pigs, but if this not the type you want not rearing, I will just as gladly not rear porkers. Are there any advantages in not rearing rare breeds such as Saddlebacks or Gloucester Old Spots, or are there too many farmers not rearing these already?

As I see it, the hardest part of this programme will be keeping an accurate record of just how many pigs I haven’t reared. Are there any EU or Government or Local Authority courses on this?

My friend is very satisfied with this business. He has been rearing pigs for forty years or so, and the best annual return he ever made on them was £1,422 in 1978; that is, until this year, when he received your cheque for £3,000 for not rearing any.

If I were to get £3,000 for not rearing fifty pigs, will I be entitled to £6,000 for not rearing a hundred? I plan to operate on a small scale at first, holding myself down to about 4,000 pigs not raised, which will mean about £240,000 for the first year. However, as I become more expert in not rearing pigs, I plan to be more ambitious, perhaps increasing to, say, 40,000 pigs not reared in my second year, for which I should expect about £2.4 million from your department.

Incidentally, I wonder if I would be eligible to receive EU tradable carbon credits for all these pigs not producing harmful and polluting methane gases?

Another point: these pigs that I plan not to rear will not eat 2,000 tonnes of cereals. I understand that the EU also pay farmers not to grow crops, so will I qualify for set-aside payments for not growing cereals in order not to feed the pigs I don’t rear?

In order to diversify, I am also considering the ‘not milking cows’ business, so please send any information leaflets you have on that too, please. Would you also include the current EU advice on set-aside fields? Can this be done on an e-commerce basis of ‘virtual’ fields of which I seem to have several thousand hectares?

In view of the above, you will realise that I shall be totally unemployed and will, therefore, qualify for unemployment benefits over and above the monies that I shall receive from the EU via DEFRA’s Rural Payments Agency.

I shall, of course, be voting for your party at the next General Election.

Yours Faithfully

lol

Just about sums the club up. One caf member receives thousands a year for just having a fence at the end of his farm. feckin joke

 

[Chorley1974]

I was talking about unemployment, but whether I agree with all EU policy is highly unlikely , I shouldn't think anyone anywhere agrees 100% with any organisation or government, and if they say they do they're lying. It's a balance and they're are far more things I like about the EU than being outside it.
The few hundred pounds it may cost me a year I have no complaints about.
It would no doubt cost me much more if we weren't in it.

Hope the Brexiteers realise this. Wonder how many of them actually pay anything, that'd be interesting to find out.

Cost you more? You simply don't know. Both the remain and brexit campaigns were full of spurious shit like this. You won't actually know until the deal is done, and the effects are measured over a period afterwards.

As to the last point, pure conjecture. It's like saying the poor working class don't contribute anything and therefore shouldn't have a voice?

 

[devilish]

Oh noes, we'll be doomed. Desperate stuff. People will be able to enter the US, Australia etc ok, but not the UK, our requirements are impossible and can never be changed. Hostile to foreigners? Some people are of course, yet we seem to be one of the most successfully multicultural nations on earth, the mayor of our capital the son of a muslim immigrant. Currency is a good point, but it's fallen before, the rate of immigration hasn't.

Ubik was right, it generally is a response to "they're a drain on our essential services and we can't cope", I just get fed up of poor arguments on both sides.

As an immigrant myself, I think that the reality is somehow in the middle.

Immigrants take in consideration a lot of things and if things get messy then most skilled labour who want to settle somewhere else for good would rather go to Australia or Canada then the UK. Take doctors as an example (I happen to have many friends among them). The gold mine is Dubai and the best country in terms of standard of living/money is Australia.

However that's not the only things immigrants take in consideration.

a- the proximity between their home country and the country they moved into. The UK is just 3 hours flight from my country. Australia would take me a day
b- re-education. In Australia most docs would need to re-validate some of their qualifications. That's not an issue in the UK. At least for the time being

If you ask me, if things get tougher in terms of Visa then most Maltese doctors coming in the UK would come for short term, possibly to get that experience needed to return home. On the other hand those who had been here for ages will probably remain.

 

[Dr. Funkenstein]

How are the EU supposed to create jobs, the individual nations have to change their policies - we are not the United States of Europe but a union of nations.

If the EU would stop interfering with national labour markets through the free movement of labour, it would be much easier for the member states to tackle unemployment.

 

[Full bodied red]

Sadiq khan stood in London.

We have a people hostile enough to foreigners that they voted out of the EU to stop free movement, something that will undoubtedly hurt them financially.

Yawn.....

 

[Rams]

lol

Just about sums the club up. One caf member receives thousands a year for just having a fence at the end of his farm. feckin joke

Rather than be concerned about legislation, which for good or bad, is there because a serious problem with over farming, maybe we should be more concerned about (for example) the state of the NHS which is in dire straits and hardly functioning properly anymore. ...oh hang, we're going to put all the money we've saved from our EU membership in the NHS and then all those pigs may fly.

 

[Giant Midget]

 

[Rams]

The whole argument that we're better off without the EU is rediculous. You really are fooling yourselves. Brexit is bad for the EU and a disaster for the U.K. There are only going to losers here and Brexit will be all about damage limitation.

 

[Full bodied red]

Rather than be concerned about legislation, which for good or bad, is there because a serious problem with over farming, maybe we should be more concerned about (for example) the state of the NHS which is in dire straits and hardly functioning properly anymore. ...oh hang, we're going to put all the money we've saved from our EU membership in the NHS and then all those pigs may fly.

Why not write to the EU, yourself, and ask why it continues to subsidise farmers ( especially inefficient farmers ) if there is over production as you say, and instead use the cash it's saved to subsidise healthcare for sick people in countries whose governments don't have enough money for a fully functioning health system - apparently like the UK.

 

[Mozza]

If the EU would stop interfering with national labour markets through the free movement of labour, it would be much easier for the member states to tackle unemployment.

Part if the idea of free movement is to make it easy for people to move to where the jobs are

 

[Full bodied red]

Part if the idea of free movement is to make it easy for people to move to where the jobs are

Fair comment.

But I wonder why there are plenty of jobs available in the UK, which just happens not to be in the Eurozone.

Coincidence ?

 

[Rams]

Why not write to the EU, yourself, and ask why it continues to subsidise farmers ( especially inefficient farmers ) if there is over production as you say, and instead use the cash it's saved to subsidise healthcare for sick people in countries whose governments don't have enough money for a fully functioning health system - apparently like the UK.

Because most don't have an NHS anymore because an NHS is not of this time and unaffordable. But rather than being honest about it British politicians don't dare to tell the public this because they're scared of fall out. The problem with over farming is one I'm not going to claim to be an expert on. But if you are going to use EU legislation on farming as an example of how terrible the EU is, at least be honest, paint the full picture and objectively explain why such legislation is made in the first place so that people can form balanced and well informed opinions!!

 

[Mozza]

Fair comment.

But I wonder why there are plenty of jobs available in the UK, which just happens not to be in the Eurozone.

Coincidence ?

UK, Germany, Holland, Ireland. We are not the only ones with a good employment rate.

Last month all 28 nations in the EU grew

 

[Bury Red]

Why not write to the EU, yourself, and ask why it continues to subsidise farmers ( especially inefficient farmers ) if there is over production as you say, and instead use the cash it's saved to subsidise healthcare for sick people in countries whose governments don't have enough money for a fully functioning health system - apparently like the UK.

Farming subsidies are a necessary evil if we do not wish to become completely reliant on others for our entire food supply and risk the environmental consequences of unfettered urbanisation or disproportionately scaled farming.

There's very, very good reasons why we are better off both environmentally and security wise in maintaining our own food production and aiming for self sufficiency. Do you really want your fresh goods flown or shipped halfway around the world because land and labour are cheaper there whilst our farmers stop working their asses off and sell off their only real asset to live a life of luxury? Can you not see how that would put you at risk of unfair price rises for a necessity, at danger of poor food standards and potentially even at risk of attack through deliberately tainted food?

It's fine to get all Daily Maily over ludicrous examples like a farmer being paid not to breed pigs or to grow hedges and put up fences but the alternative is that farms go industrial scale damaging local employment in favour of huge boundless fields with combine harvesters or wide scale grazing and foraging land with the subsequent environmental damage caused by increasing rainfall runoff at the very top end of the water cycle and overloading drainage capacity in lower lying areas with more of the subsequent flooding we are already seeing. I'm sure you'd get similarly Daily Maily over increasing unemployment, increasing nitrogen and phosphate pollution of our rivers, increased frequency and severity of flooding to urban areas and increasing food prices.

 

[711]

As an immigrant myself, I think that the reality is somehow in the middle.

Yeah, there's lots of factors, as you describe and more, I was merely saying that if a Brexit UK felt the need to allow more immigration it could do.
Which might negate much of the Brexit vote of course, but that would be a separate point.

 

[711]

Farming subsidies are a necessary evil if we do not wish to become completely reliant on others for our entire food supply and risk the environmental consequences of unfettered urbanisation or disproportionately scaled farming.

There's very, very good reasons why we are better off both environmentally and security wise in maintaining our own food production and aiming for self sufficiency. Do you really want your fresh goods flown or shipped halfway around the world because land and labour are cheaper there whilst our farmers stop working their asses off and sell off their only real asset to live a life of luxury? Can you not see how that would put you at risk of unfair price rises for a necessity, at danger of poor food standards and potentially even at risk of attack through deliberately tainted food?
It's fine to get all Daily Maily over ludicrous examples like a farmer being paid not to breed pigs or to grow hedges and put up fences but the alternative is that farms go industrial scale damaging local employment in favour of huge boundless fields with combine harvesters or wide scale grazing and foraging land with the subsequent environmental damage caused by increasing rainfall runoff at the very top end of the water cycle and overloading drainage capacity in lower lying areas with more of the subsequent flooding we are already seeing. I'm sure you'd get similarly Daily Maily over increasing unemployment, increasing nitrogen and phosphate pollution of our rivers, increased frequency and severity of flooding to urban areas and increasing food prices.

The UK had all sorts of farming subsidies before we ever joined the EU. They need continually re-assessing, but the principle has been around a long time.

 

[Rams]

Ignorance = The condition of being uneducated, unaware, or uninformed.

 

[Full bodied red]

Farming subsidies are a necessary evil if we do not wish to become completely reliant on others for our entire food supply and risk the environmental consequences of unfettered urbanisation or disproportionately scaled farming.

There's very, very good reasons why we are better off both environmentally and security wise in maintaining our own food production and aiming for self sufficiency. Do you really want your fresh goods flown or shipped halfway around the world because land and labour are cheaper there whilst our farmers stop working their asses off and sell off their only real asset to live a life of luxury? Can you not see how that would put you at risk of unfair price rises for a necessity, at danger of poor food standards and potentially even at risk of attack through deliberately tainted food?

It's fine to get all Daily Maily over ludicrous examples like a farmer being paid not to breed pigs or to grow hedges and put up fences but the alternative is that farms go industrial scale damaging local employment in favour of huge boundless fields with combine harvesters or wide scale grazing and foraging land with the subsequent environmental damage caused by increasing rainfall runoff at the very top end of the water cycle and overloading drainage capacity in lower lying areas with more of the subsequent flooding we are already seeing. I'm sure you'd get similarly Daily Maily over increasing unemployment, increasing nitrogen and phosphate pollution of our rivers, increased frequency and severity of flooding to urban areas and increasing food prices.

You were making a good point until your reference to the Daily Mail. Don't ever accuse me of being Daily Mail.

But I suppose you never buy any food imported into the UK / EU do you ?

I spent 20+ years flying fruit, vegetables, and flowers into Europe from East Africa. 30 tons of it every week. Obviously you didn't buy any of that. Or the strawberries from Morocco and cherries from Lebanon that I used to fly into the UK so that you could have those in March instead of having to wait until June for UK grown ones.

Presumably you don't buy any of those because of the environmental cost of shipping them half way round the world. Or the avocados flown half the way round the world from Peru ? Or Sth African or Sth American or Australian wine ?

Closer to home presumably you don't buythe greenhouse grown tomatoes and peppers which leave Spain in hundreds of trucks every day for the UK, or the greenhouse grown flowers which leave the Netherlands by the truckload everday, but could be grown in greenhouses in the UK without the need for the diesel pollution from all those trucks driving across Europe.

Tell me, hand on heart, that you don't and I'll start to take your personal environmental credentials seriously.

C'mon - East Africa ( Kenya, Uganda, Tanzania, Zimbabwe ) could feed the whole of Europe, easily.

Does the EU allow them Tariff Free access ? Of course not.

Does that mean we all pay more for those fruit and veg ? Of course we do.

Do the Afrcan farmers benefit from those higher prices ? Of course they don't.

And would they like a Tariff Free Agreement ? Of course they would.

Instead, the EU collects the tariffs, throws them into their money-go-round with yours and my taxes, and then pays non-farmers ( like Paul Dacre if you want to bring the Daily Mail into it ) and Emerati Royals, and small, hopelessly inefficient farmers £000s every year NOT to grow stuff because there might already be too much being grown or reared.

The CAP is probably the highest form of protectionism in world food production. And equally probably the most expensive.

 

[PedroMendez]

There's very, very good reasons why we are better off both environmentally and security wise in maintaining our own food production and aiming for self sufficiency. Do you really want your fresh goods flown or shipped halfway around the world because land and labour are cheaper there whilst our farmers stop working their asses off and sell off their only real asset to live a life of luxury? Can you not see how that would put you at risk of unfair price rises for a necessity, at danger of poor food standards and potentially even at risk of attack through deliberately tainted food?

We are already important huge quantities of food and there is no problem with prices or standards. There are also primarily emotional reasons to maintain some level of autarky in this one sector. Some subsidies when it comes to insurance are justifiable, but overall it is just the result of lobbying of powerful national industry, that don’t want to compete in a global market, while the general public has to pay for it.

Yet, as already mentioned, the EU didn’t invent subsidies for this sector; it is one of the sectors where producers just have a lot of influence for a variety of reasons, but the result is that many countries following the same path (USA, Japan). Additionally it is also not the only sector where this is happening. So many people who are taking offense by this specific subsidy are ignoring, that the EU is just doing what most states did or are doing as well. So the counter-factual is not a world without these subsidies, but one where equal subsidies would be paid by the individual nations.

 

[Stanley Road]

Part if the idea of free movement is to make it easy for people to move to where the jobs are

it then becomes a place where the jobs were.

if there were no borders even for non eu countries then Africa would be empty

 

[Chorley1974]

Have you ever tried getting a UK visa? I have. Our system is expensive and the forms complicated. We will also be competing with nations where the population isn't hostile to foreigners, and where the currency hasn't devalued by 15%

Absolute BS.

 

[Stanley Road]

I kind of admired Bruce Dickinson of iron maiden, when he was asked if he thought it was wrong to live in a tax haven and not contribute to inland revenue in the UK.

He replied that he'd be quite happy to pay taxes if he could decide what they are spent on, until then he wont pay a penny.

So if you are happy to give money to NOT farm then that's a wonderful idea, I am not

 

[Full bodied red]

As an immigrant myself, I think that the reality is somehow in the middle.

Immigrants take in consideration a lot of things and if things get messy then most skilled labour who want to settle somewhere else for good would rather go to Australia or Canada then the UK. Take doctors as an example (I happen to have many friends among them). The gold mine is Dubai and the best country in terms of standard of living/money is Australia.

However that's not the only things immigrants take in consideration.

a- the proximity between their home country and the country they moved into. The UK is just 3 hours flight from my country. Australia would take me a day
b- re-education. In Australia most docs would need to re-validate some of their qualifications. That's not an issue in the UK. At least for the time being

If you ask me, if things get tougher in terms of Visa then most Maltese doctors coming in the UK would come for short term, possibly to get that experience needed to return home. On the other hand those who had been here for ages will probably remain.

As you have personal experience.

How do the other EU countries, Malta I assume in yor own case, feel about losing so many newly and expensively trained doctors and nurses to the NHS ?

To me those on here shouting about the NHS collapsing without EU nationals staffing the NHS seem a bit selfish - they don't seem to think twice at the consequences to other countries' Health Services if the NHS continues to suck in doctors and nurses from all over the EU. Our daughter spent a week or so in a UK hospital last year after an accident, and all the nurses she came into contact with were Portuguese or Spanish. Makes me wonder whether Spain and Portugal are training too many nurses, or Spain and Portugal will soon have their own nurses' shortages id they all move to the UK as soon as they're qualified.

 

[Stanley Road]

Sadiq khan stood in London.

We have a people hostile enough to foreigners that they voted out of the EU to stop free movement, something that will undoubtedly hurt them financially.

British people are far more tolerant than the dutch imo, not a day passes that I don't hear a dozen flippant racist comments.

 

[Mozza]

it then becomes a place where the jobs were.

if there were no borders even for non eu countries then Africa would be empty

Jobs growth creates demand which creates jobs

We don't have open borders with African nations as non of them meet the criteria for joining the EU