Calling that fallacious is the same sort of rejection of experts that got you in this shit in the first place!
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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Calling that fallacious is the same sort of rejection of experts that got you in this shit in the first place!
They said Brexit would tie the UK closer to the States.
Good stuff. This won't go badly at all.
Good stuff. This won't go badly at all.
I can see how it would be seen that way, especially in light of recent events, but it is slightly different.
Thats a classic example of an argument from authority. An assumption that because of who they are they are right and the other person is wrong. For example, I have no idea why Sir David Edward thinks that, but just that he does. His argument might be absolutely terrible, but we don't know either way because we haven't seen it.
Ultimately whether the people Sun_Tzu has referenced are right or not is dependent on what they have said, an opinion that is surely informed by years of experience in the field, but not because of who said it.
I spend my life disagreeing with established historians who, despite generally being right, are sometimes wrong. If I spent my life thinking 'well if JH Round said it then it must be true' I'd have nothing to do!
"Pretend inferiority and encourage his arrogance"
Did Sun Tzu meet Trump in a previous incarnation ?
Its funny to see Brexiters on the express thrilled that Trump had said he'll put the US first. They think its the foundations for a great trade deal for the UK
I think your hatred for the Tories seems to be sounding out loud and clear on this issue, fair play. The financial contribution and propping up Greece etc isn't front of mind for UK people though, uncontrolled immigration is by far the biggest issue for UK voters. Pumping in massive amounts of money with little return does seem an issue.
How can you speak for all UK voters?
Majority then if you want to nitpick
That's it, though. I am nit-picking. The referendum was won by a tiny minority. With varied motivations for voting Leave. Now Teresa May is saying that freedom of movement is the one issue that is non-negotiable. Which is why a simple referendum is a stupid way to deal with a complex situation.
The only opinion polls I saw after Brexit suggested that the rather vague aspiration to "take back control of our country" placed ahead of immigration as the driving factor amongst Brexiters. Which really casts doubt on the idea that immigration was the biggest issue amongst the majority of UK voters in general given that Remainers were hardly driven by a demand for more immigration.
There are certainly quite a few pro-Brexit posters here who insisted it wasn't about immigration. In fact they objected to that very notion when Remainers suggested it.
Yeah, but expecting a consistent position on this from them is silly.
It's never been about immigration until it is, and then it isn't again. It's very hard to keep up with.
It was a small majority, decision done. Shall we go back because it wasn't the decision wanted???!!??
By that logic, shall we cancel General Elections?
After all, the Conservatives won. Decision done, no point having another one.
My point is that the referendum was an incredibly stupid idea. Obviously you're stuck with it now but the Tories deciding what is and isn't the key issues for voters on their behalf is compounding the problem. The Leave voters were a diverse bunch, with diverse issues that matter most to them. The anti-immigration rhetoric is an attempt to win back UKIP voters, not the most important issue for everyone who wanted to leave.
Brexit will destroy Good Friday Agreement - Adams
http://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0121/846744-gerry-adams-brexit/
http://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0121/846744-gerry-adams-brexit/
We are forced to implement the tariffs set by the EU as of members of it.
You are like the kidnapper who blames the victims family for not paying the ransom. If you choose to link two things that are not directly causal that is your choice.
The UK doesn't want to put up a tariff wall between it and the EU if one goes up that is the EU's doing and they are the ones making that decision, blame them for the consequences.
I'm not sure Brexiters in GB particularly cared about or even considered the effect their vote would have in NI.
Right now we couldn't wish people in the EU good morning without being criticized for cherry picking only the good mornings.
At some point over the next 12 months minds will focus on doing what is best given we are leaving.
You are right, it was stupid from me.
Well he is right, no one has to put tariffs on anything, why would you?
I literally said that he was right.
Ok. Cant tell these days in this thread.
@Don't Kill Bill
No, I wanted people who weren't from NI to actually consider the negative effect Brexit would have on the progress made there, or the contradictions between taking NI out of the EU and prior policy on citizenship and borders. Hardly too much to ask for, I'd have thought.
In another thread @Stanley Road said that whatever comes next can't be worse than the way things are now. Well in NI it very easily could.
No, I wanted people who weren't from NI to actually consider the negative effect Brexit would have on the progress made there, or the contradictions between taking NI out of the EU and prior policy on citizenship and borders. Hardly too much to ask for, I'd have thought.
In another thread @Stanley Road said that whatever comes next can't be worse than the way things are now. Well in NI it very easily could.
Bullshit, it is the UK´s doing by laying down their EU membership status and then not meeting the standart (respecting the four freedoms) to get access to the single market via a trade deal.
Tariffs are not some kind of wall or tool of punishment, they are the norm in International trade. The single market creates a special trading zone, where said tariffs are exempted. Gaining access to the single market can be accomplished via two ways:
a) Being part of the European Union, which the UK does not want to be anymore
b) A trade deal for non members (e.g. Norway, Switzerland) which gives access if certain conditions are met. The UK is not ready to meet said conditions. It wants special treatment to be not bound by the same standarts which every other current participant respects.
To put it very simply: The UK is a person who decided (Brexit) to leave a room full of people (EU/single market) and now complains before exiting the room (triggering article 50) that the remaining people don´t build him/her a special door, that only (s)he can use, to come back in. Surely the remaining people are the ones to blame here....
@Sphaero
If we are strict, he is right. The EU and almost all the countries in the world use tarrifs and we can't claim that the UK will put tarrifs until they actually do. We all know that they are going to do it for very obvious reasons, like China having a labour cost far inferior for example.
If we are strict, he is right. The EU and almost all the countries in the world use tarrifs and we can't claim that the UK will put tarrifs until they actually do. We all know that they are going to do it for very obvious reasons, like China having a labour cost far inferior for example.
The UK is perfectly happy to leave trade tariff-free and not link it with all the rest of the EU bullshit. If the EU isn't prepared to do so that is their prerogative but one which they have to take the responsibility for.
There is no causal link between free trade and settlement rights they don't have to be paired.
No, but I claim that the EU will do so, for the simple reason as it does so for every country outside the single market.
There is a causal link, you need to respect the same rules and not create a disloyal advantage by for example reducing taxes or wages to ridicule figures. If the leavers are true to their word, they don't want to respect the market rules and want to make their owns.
In the European single market? Of course there is. Every participant of the single market has to respect the four freedoms, including the freedom of movement. It is a prime condition of membership and the trade deals with other non members.
That's not true, Turkey don't respect those pillars but are member of the single market. The problem is that they have to obey to all the rules and have no say, which the UK will rightfully not accept.
Well i was referring to the big picture. As far as im concerned the sooner we have new leaders in europe the better, a move away from the nei liberallism disease, if brexit is a relative success then i feel this will happen.
Is it? I don't think it is.
Turkey aren't in the single market @JPRouve
They have a custom union for goods only, no services, no finance.
To be explicit they are member of a free trade area with the single market. They don't have tarrifs on non essentials economic areas and don't have FOM but they have to follow all the EU single market's rules.
Exactly, they are not in the single market.
Yeah, I meant free trade area which is the subject of the conversion but reduced it to single market. Now, that's not really important because the UK don't want to be in the single market but have a free trade agreement.
No finance or services for Turkey which is most important to UK.
I wish you were right and that it was a member of the single market. Sadly, it gets a pretty rubbish deal because the current dictator didn't look to ever have any real ambition of moving Turkey on from the customs union to the next stage.
When we leave the EU we become the rest of the world, and so will face the same tariffs as them. Our decision to leave, our fault we face tarrifs