Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

  • Total voters
    194
  • Poll closed .
barros said:
In a few years when UK turns to be better than now I can see more countries leaving the union, UK will save 350 million of pounds a day and right there is a big plus.
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Wrong. It's £250 Million a day - and it doesn't inlcude what we get back.

That £250m is less then 2% of our yearly annual budget.

And most of it will get spent on a new trade agreement with the EU should we want to go down the Norway/Switzerland route.
 
B20 said:
I am not against a referendum. I am against the premises this referendum was based on. This was not an informed vote and couldn't have been without knowing what exiting would actually entail. which is still to be decided.
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We had a referendum on joining the EEC in the first place didn't we. You insult people by saying that that it was not informed. Politicians on the doorstep have commented on how well informed people actually were. Just because people vote the opposite way to you does not mean they are ill informed or it would also mean that you are ill informed too.
 
Fully Fledged said:
Not me I was 7 in 1973. I just know that in the 43 years that we have a member of the EU I haven't once had to go to war with my fellow Europeans. Millions of people haven't died on the green fields of France or the beaches of Normandy while we have been a member of the EU.
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European countries aren't the world players they used to be now we have mega countries if we compare them with any European country besides Russia.
 
Red Defence said:
We had a referendum on joining the EEC in the first place didn't we. You insult people by saying that that it was not informed. Politicians on the doorstep have commented on how well informed people actually were. Just because people vote the opposite way to you does not mean they are ill informed or it would also mean that you are ill informed too.
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We've literally just had someone repeat the bullshit £350m figure in this thread... people may or may not have been informed, but they've defnitely misinformed by perpetual lies that the Leave campagin has spouted.... but hey, fair play to them, it worked.
 
Fully Fledged said:
Not me I was 7 in 1973. I just know that in the 43 years that we have a member of the EU I haven't once had to go to war with my fellow Europeans. Millions of people haven't died on the green fields of France or the beaches of Normandy while we have been a member of the EU.
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Yep. Even the US should 'slap' the UK for doing something so foolish.
 
Annihilate Now! said:
We've literally just had someone repeat the bullshit £350m figure in this thread... people may or may not have been informed, but they've defnitely misinformed by perpetual lies that the Leave campagin has spouted.... but hey, fair play to them, it worked.
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Tantamount to brainwashing. If you keep quoting the same bullshit figures again and again and they're printed in the Sun people will believe them.
 
You reap what you sow.

After years of focusing on 'soundbite' and personality politics we have a vast swathe of the electorate so apathetic, disengaged and/or uneducated about the political and economic sphere that they are willing to mobilise in order to vote for a policy that most have no clue as to how it will actually effect the country. The stay camp are largely made up of the same type of voters. I had hoped in such circumstances the relative sense of status quo would have prevailed.

I have spoken to a fair few "leavers" in the last few months, needless to say that I was able to better vocalise, extrapolate and validate most of their arguments than they themselves were. Not everything they had to say was rubbish but there was often misplaced significance in terms of the relevance to the wider topic (stay/leave) and yet very few were willing to take this on board despite me patiently pointing it out. Sentiment was the key to their stance and it wasn't a sentiment conjured by the inane campaigning but one that has lurked in them for some time. This issue merely provided the platform and "legitimate" excuse for them to express it.

#I accept that not all "leavers" fall under this description and there are some that are able to make well reasoned arguments to validate their stance#

The country has taken a step in to the unknown predicated on largely spurious bollocks and it will be fascinating to see how the voters act at the next general election. My assumption would be that the voting % slumps back down to the more typical level as people so "concerned" about our future and self determination obviate their role in providing direction and input for those very things. Part of me hopes that I am wrong whilst the other hopes that some of these people never step in to a polling booth again.

At this point we have no idea how the EU would have changed/acted had we stayed. Any future actions, reforms, improvements can not be guaranteed to have occurred without this seismic event that will likely force a degree of introspection within the political mechanisms of the union. We need to concentrate on where we are and take steps to ensure that future decisions are not made on facile summations, half-truths and outright lies (both sides). The AV vote and Scottish independence campaign were both ominous precursors to this referendum with the deliberate lack of clarity presented by either side in favour of fear driven mantras. Why? Because we made it that way or at the very least allowed it to become/stay that way under our watch. Politics and politicians won't change unless we force a change, they are by their very nature opportunists that seek to exploit sentiments through their own pragmatism. They behave how they behave because it procures results in the current system and environment. The media is much the same in that it generates content that is designed to grab ones attention or cause shock/outrage as opposed to breaking down nuanced events and providing genuine insight that furthers understanding. This is our culture and sadly we opt-in, endorse it, pay for it and ultimately perpetuate it everyday.
 
Annihilate Now! said:
We've literally just had someone repeat the bullshit £350m figure in this thread... people may or may not have been informed, but they've defnitely misinformed by perpetual lies that the Leave campagin has spouted.... but hey, fair play to them, it worked.
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Least they've got the general idea which is more than some remainers had.
 
Annihilate Now! said:
Wrong. It's £250 Million a day - and it doesn't inlcude what we get back.

That £250m is less then 2% of our yearly annual budget.

And most of it will get spent on a new trade agreement with the EU should we want to go down the Norway/Switzerland route.
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per week not per day.
 
JustAFan said:
That is true of all votes though. Which party you put in power in an election even if they only stay in power a few years the effect of what they do can be felt for decades or longer. Do the decisions of leaders like FDR and Churchill still have effects in the modern world? LBJ and his support of the Civil Rights movement, is that still felt today?

In reality since this is a permanent decision, or at least unlikely to be reversed it's effects may really go beyond the lifetime of anyone alive today. If that is the case, who really deserves to vote on issues like this?

So where do you draw the line on who gets to vote on what?
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This is why you vote for Governments to decide for you, issues as specific and with deeper implications as this shouldn't be decided through a referendum, imo.
 
RedSky said:
My generation is taking a hammering too. Just as we reach working age we get into a recession and now this. Anyone born after from the 80's onwards is taking a hammering. Oh I wish I could return back to my life in the 90's when the only big debate was whether you were a Blur or Oasis fan. :(
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Still a potential Trump presidency to come too! :drool:

Also, the correct answer is Blur. Lets not make today any worse.
 
B20 said:
The way I see it, David Cameron fecked you all over. Remain and Leave alike.

Setting this up as a simple stay/leave decision is just utterly reckless. You essentially went to vote on "Status quo or.... um, we don't really know what 'leave' exactly will entail, but less immigrants, mkay?'.

The sensible decision would have been two referendums. One whether you should begin negotiations to leave EU. And another, when finalised, whether you want to leave once those terms have been laid out.


I am astounded at the naitevity of this referendum. Lord of the Flies stuff this.
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I agree that simply holding a referendum like this was incredibly stupid but your alternative doesn't make a lot of sense from the perspective of the EU.

How could they negotiate the exit of the UK when it's not even certain the UK would want to leave? If the second referendum ends with a "stay", it would give no closure; it would basically mean we don't want to leave under those particular terms offered. The issue could be opened again and again and again.

EDIT: I think that what 'Leave' means should have been clarified before the referendum. Make the terms clear: if Leave wins, the government immediately triggers Article 50 and starts negotiations.

But it's clear that everyone expected this to amount to nothing more than political posturing and Remain would win.
 
Thanks for clearing this up for me BBC! :)

What does the term Brexit mean?
It is a word that has become used as a shorthand way of saying the UK leaving the EU - merging the words Britain and exit to get Brexit, in a same way as a Greek exit from the EU was dubbed Grexit in the past.
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If you could not work this one out for yourself, you should not have been allowed to vote.
 
Red Defence said:
We had a referendum on joining the EEC in the first place didn't we. You insult people by saying that that it was not informed. Politicians on the doorstep have commented on how well informed people actually were. Just because people vote the opposite way to you does not mean they are ill informed or it would also mean that you are ill informed too.
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No I am not. You are missing the point - By definition, it can not be informed, because the information doesn't yet exist - What kind of deal will UK negotiate with EU for the exit?

Hell, what is the proposed deal they intend to negotiate for an exit? Nothing has been negotiated even among the leave parties. Only ideas thrown out there.

None of this has been formulated yet so one can not, by definition, be informed about the true implications of voting 'leave'. Though, if I were to insult someone, it is a bit thick to claim to be informed about information yet to be formulated (this is btw, a classic trait of lacking intelligence). bite. bite.

Which is why it would have made better sense to make it a two-stage referendum, so the people could also vote on whether the deal they will actually end up with is also the deal they want to end up with.
 
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Annihilate Now! said:
We've literally just had someone repeat the bullshit £350m figure in this thread... people may or may not have been informed, but they've defnitely misinformed by perpetual lies that the Leave campagin has spouted.... but hey, fair play to them, it worked.
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Just checked and was per week, but UK contribute to EU 13 billions and got back 4.5 last year so still a bit of money.
 
sullydnl said:
Still a potential Trump presidency to come too! :drool:

Also, the correct answer is Blur. Lets not make today any worse.
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After this vote I wouldn't put anything past a general populous

Yeah that Oasis was just too sweet and left an bitter after taste in your mouth. Worst drink ever.
 
Siorac said:
I agree that simply holding a referendum like this was incredibly stupid but your alternative doesn't make a lot of sense from the perspective of the EU.

How could they negotiate the exit of the UK when it's not even certain the UK would want to leave? If the second referendum ends with a "stay", it would give no closure; it would basically mean we don't want to leave under those particular terms offered. The issue could be opened again and again and again.
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It makes fine sense. Denmark initially voted 'no' to the EU. With a different plan on the table, that changed to 'yes' a year later.

They would negotiate on the premise that the UK has signalled a clear intention of its wish to leave.

There is no such thing as closure in politics. You think 'leave' will give closure to the UK? The fallout will last decades.
 
barros said:
In a few years when UK turns to be better than now I can see more countries leaving the union, UK will save 350 million of pounds a day and right there is a big plus.
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the troll is strong in this one...
 
Red Defence said:
Least they've got the general idea which is more than some remainers had.
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A general idea? On leave campaign literature I have seen, I've read that we spend £350m per week on the EU, that most of our immigration comes from the EU, that the EU control ALL our laws, that the EU controls ALL our borders, and the fact that Turkey are definitely about to join.

All of the above are 100% not true... so how is this a general idea?

JPRouve said:
per week not per day.
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Yeah I know, I was typing in a fit of rage though in my defence.
 
barros said:
Just checked and was per week, but UK contribute to EU 13 billions and got back 4.5 last year so still a bit of money.
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Nope, that's the amount they get just with the CAP, the UK receive around 7-8bn.
 
itso 7 said:
This is why you vote for Governments to decide for you, issues as specific and with deeper implications as this shouldn't be decided through a referendum, imo.
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I think they should actually. The surrender of sovereignty, ie, how powerful is my own vote, should always go to this.

It needs to be more carefully structured than this though. Cameron is a dolt.
 
barros said:
Just checked and was per week, but UK contribute to EU 13 billions and got back 4.5 last year so still a bit of money.
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It is, but not in the grand scheme of our yearly budget... and it's roughly the same amount we'd have to spend anyway if we wanted to set up a trade agreement with the EU ala Norway or the Swiss (like all the LEAVE literature wants us to do)...
 
Red Defence said:
Giving people the referendum was the right thing to do. People wanted it and we are a democracy.
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He did it because:

1) He thought it would counter the threat from UKIP and quell growing backbench grumbles in his own party.

2) He never really thought it would happen; a Conservative majority at the last election was a low-probability outcome and the Lib Dems would have blocked any referendum in coalition.

None of this had anything to do with giving "the people" their voice, it was a high-stakes political gamble that backfired and Cameron has paid for his own recklessness.


barros said:
In a few years when UK turns to be better than now I can see more countries leaving the union, UK will save 350 million of pounds a day and right there is a big plus.
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You're confused. That was the per week figure oft-quoted by the Leave campaign, not per day. The figure is at any rate erroneous. It's actually £342 million per week, but that money doesn't actually go to Brussels of course, as that figure ignores our rebate (which last year totalled £4.9 billion). It also ignores the money the EU spends on the UK (last year £4.4 billion) and injects into the private sector (eg scientific research programs - the most recent figure for this is 2013 - £1.4 billion), so that's another £5.8 billion to subtract from the bill, leaving a net total of £136m per week.
 
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