In summary - You still have not understood my post - keep digging.
I'm having a perfectly reasonable conversation with Buster. No my point is that the further the Uk drift away from the EU the worse it will get - if that's what you want so be it.
That’s a silly thing to say. I quoted an article from Irish media about it, not English.
It isn't always about the government. Or the EU for that matter.
It is far more about the businessess and the people of the country.
Just because we have left the EU doesn't mean that those businessess and those people are going to do what they have always done.
Work, create, innovate, forge new relationships and grow.
That is happening now. Not because of government but in spite of it.
How is that what I want? Keep on making up silly straw men so that you can come in and post pithy one liners about how nobody other than you gets it.
What is your plan then? I saw JPR asked you a few days ago and your response was essentially that the opposition is shit. As I said, please do enlighten us as to what your plan would be as a UK politician at present in the short, medium and long term. A plan that can actually be enacted by getting voted in.
The investors will look at what the future holds. Will the car manufacturers stay in the Uk.? They're all foreign owned. Even Nissan are making noises they may leave. Supply chains - different standards. The factories will have to comply with EU standards if they are going to sell to the EU or to the standards of whichever other country. You must remember the problems selling cars to the USA even before the UK joined the EC back in the 60s. There are many more factors to be taken into consideration.
What are you so upset about. Three times you've misunderstood my post.
Then I post an article from a British newspaper without me even making a comment and that upset you. I told JPR that the UK needs a decent politician with a backbone to stand up to the Brexiters. Caving into them will solve nothing.
Other posters have said that the mood is changing in the UK and that the majority are against Brexit but apparently it's political suicide to even suggest that it's not a good thing. So to get elected you have to pretend and lie. Haven't you had enough of that?
In the long term , however long it takes, the Uk will rejoin the EU. I won't live to see it.
In the short to medium term is not to drift too far away from the EU. The actions of the next few years could see irreparable damage or at least put the process back ten to twenty years.
Nissan and any other manufacturer will always say that they are going to leave for the simple reason that governments of whichever country will always try to induce them to stay by offering them whatever they want.
And the EV transition with batteries as a key ingredient is likely to centralise manufacturing.
And inside or outside the EU, the UK is an outlier, physically.
If you don't mind me saying, you seem to have an idealistic view of politicians. As if they can operate in a vacuum.
Even Margaret Thatcher came to realise that.
To be in a position of power you first have to attain that position of power. And surrounded yourself with a strong power base.
The whole subject of Brexit is highly toxic here. And that is why politicians have to skirt round the edges. Starmer understands that.
Now is not the right time.
I'm not upset, I find the strawmen you build to be funny though. Saying I misunderstand your post and then suggesting that I want divergence from the EU, based on nothing....
You still haven't really given anything of substance. Don't drift too far away from the EU, what does that mean in practice?
It's also arguably just what ' make brexit work', a phrase that seems to infuriate you, means, only presented in a slightly more electorally palatable way.
Because ultimately whether the UK decide they're going to be dicks and turn everything into a race to the bottom standards wise, or decide from very early on that it needs to align fully again with the EU and becomes the most Europhilic country on the continent....there will still be brexit and there will still be brexit for decades, as we are all pretty much in agreement on.
So constant self flagellation, at least electorally, is neither appropriate nor helpful. There has to be an attempt to make the best of a bad situation in the meantime.
Physical position is not the problem. The UK have been making vehicles for many years with the supply chains but not with different standards, not with customs checks and paperwork etc. When a gearbox for a Mini crosses the customs border five times, it becomes no longer viable to make the car in the UK. If a car is built to UK standards in the UK it is not sellable elsewhere and cars are the largest export of the UK at the moment. What happens now is not what was happening even three years ago. And the Uk government have announced that they are going to change the laws and standards - this is still to come.
Politicians only work for their personal ambition, I have no illusion. Starmer wants to get elected and he may spend five years as PM if he survives that long and then he's gone for good. No benefit whatsoever for the long term outlook for the UK other than short term getting rid of the lunatics currently in charge.
You say that now is not the right time . At what point does it become the right time - how bad does it have to get?
Notwithstanding that if Starmer gets elected and it all goes t!ts up , guess who's getting the blame for not implementing Brexit properly.
Actually, EV batteries because of their mass and the obvious safety issues with transporting batteries does bring it's own problems. Quite unlike those of a Mini gearbox.
And I am sure you understand that.
Anyway. As I have said before. we are both largely on the same side of the argument. Despite having differing views.
I would love things to be different. Really I would.
And I would love politicians to act on principles as opposed to populism.
But as an ex engineer, I have always dealt with the facts and not the emotions. Boring as that may seem.
Yes of course. We do share the same views in the main. In my job as well it was not based on emotion, not even this , although it is sad to see. The last thing you do in trade is put up barriers - there are more and more going up still. I am so sick of the lies and the gullibility of people. But hoping that all these problems are going to go away on their own, it's not happening.
Exactly this thread has become nothing but an echo chamber.Paul used to be the voice of reason in here against the brexiteers. Now the brexiteers are all gone on he looks a bit mad.
Exactly this thread has become nothing but an echo chamber.
Brexiteers' believe they won (exactly what, many are not sure), Remainers keep on moaning, about losses which are not always clearly addressed (maybe come more so in future) but if VAR had been around they would be blaming that for the Leave result.
Surely all that matters now is the way forward?
Exactly this thread has become nothing but an echo chamber.
Brexiteers' believe they won (exactly what, many are not sure), Remainers keep on moaning, about losses which are not always clearly addressed (maybe come more so in future) but if VAR had been around they would be blaming that for the Leave result.
Surely all that matters now is the way forward?
I am only talking about the way forward but people don't seem to like it. This thread I see as more of the news of what is happening but maybe the solution is to stick your fingers in your ears and find another reason why the Uk is in so much mess. The Brexiters have cleared off years ago after losing every single argument.
Anyone who thinks that Brexit is done and this is the worst it gets then there's such a shock coming. Which is why the Uk needs someone with some guts to deal with it. Starmer is not that person.
Everyone seems frightened of the big bad Brexiter whom nobody must upset. 7 years of this feebleness and it's still going on.
On here, you are largely preaching to the choir. We know Brexit is self-sabotage and we knew that in 2016. But there are no votes to be had in pointing that out as voters in favour of rapprochement with the EU will not vote Tory anyway, while, in some seats, such talk might repel voters. It would certainly give the right-wing press a line of attack on Starmer as a metropolitan elitist EU fanatic. Therefore, in the real world, the best Labour can do on Brexit as an electoral strategy is to neutralise it (who can attack “make Brexit work”?) in order to obtain power with a decent majority and then to try to “limit the damage“ (obviously a less attractive slogan). Beyond that, I don’t know what he can realistically propose in order to achieve power, without which Labour is back to the oppositionist posturing of the Corbyn era. Once in power, it’s a different story and I do take solace from the fact that Starmer is not an idiot and must realise that re-establishing better relations with the giant bloc on our doorstep is an indispensable part of trying to restore the country. Maybe after winning an election and with the authority that comes with being PM, he can at some point start to have a more frank discussion with the electorate. Until then, all that matters is getting the UKiP entryists out of office.
I don't think I am preaching to the choir. I understand you need to get the current government out of office. But what I would like to know is what Starmer's plans are for the many items I've listed on here because if they're not dealt with very soon it will be too late. I'm not talking about rejoining the CU or SM or the EU. Even better relations are not the priority but if certain laws or bills are passed it's a big problem. He hasn't got five years to sort this out.
On here, you are largely preaching to the choir. We know Brexit is self-sabotage and we knew that in 2016. But there are no votes to be had in pointing that out as voters in favour of rapprochement with the EU will not vote Tory anyway, while, in some seats, such talk might repel voters. It would certainly give the right-wing press a line of attack on Starmer as a metropolitan elitist EU fanatic. Therefore, in the real world, the best Labour can do on Brexit as an electoral strategy is to neutralise it (who can attack “make Brexit work”?) in order to obtain power with a decent majority and then to try to “limit the damage“ (obviously a less attractive slogan). Beyond that, I don’t know what he can realistically propose in order to achieve power, without which Labour is back to the oppositionist posturing of the Corbyn era. Once in power, it’s a different story and I do take solace from the fact that Starmer is not an idiot and must realise that re-establishing better relations with the giant bloc on our doorstep is an indispensable part of trying to restore the country. Maybe after winning an election and with the authority that comes with being PM, he can at some point start to have a more frank discussion with the electorate. Until then, all that matters is getting the UKiP entryists out of office.
Labour are in opposition and can’t stop the the ERG scorched earth bill on their own - only Sunak and any remaining sane Tories can do that. As for the plans of a future Labour government, I don’t know what they are but, to repeat myself, there is no electoral upside for Starmer in explicitly setting out a position of closer alignment at this stage.
There are 2 conflicting views here.
1. The reality of the situation that is dictating the need for Starmer to have to play the long game - get into power first and then try to limit the damage going forward.
2. Paul telling us that playing the long game is not the right thing to do because by then, the damage will have been done.
To a degree, we on here are primarily spectators with almost no actual influence.
I believe that I understand enough of what Paul has posted recently to know that what he is saying is likely to be correct.
But I also believe that Starmer has little room for manoeuvre because of the toxicity of Brexit and until he is in power, is much like the rest of us. Having to watch and wait.
And here is the explanatory note from Labour defending this claim.We need to be frank about the path of decline the Tories have set our country on. The British people are falling behind while our European neighbours get richer. In the East as well as in countries like France and Germany. I’m not comfortable with that. Not comfortable with a trajectory that will soon see Britain overtaken by Poland. Nor am I prepared to accept what the consequences of this failure would mean.
Ahem, something hasn't registered in Starmer's brain.and then:World Bank data shows that the UK had a GDP per capita of $44,979 in 2021 (latest available data) compared with $34,915 in Poland, and $33,593 in Hungary, and $30,777 in Romania.
UK GDP (Gross Domestic Product) per capita grew at an average annual rate of 0.5% in real terms from 2010-21, compared to 3.6% for Poland, 3% for Hungary and 3.8% for Romania.
Assuming these trends continue, by 2030, the UK will be around US$600 (PPP adjusted) poorer per person than Poland.
By 2040, the UK will be around US$12,000 and US$8,000 poorer per person than Romania and Hungary respectively.
Look if your house is on fire do you want a pyromaniac to handle it or a incompetent fire chief? Yes neither is ideal but I know what I would go for.Extracts from Starmer's speech today:
And here is the explanatory note from Labour defending this claim.
Ahem, something hasn't registered in Starmer's brain.and then:
Q: How would you change Brexit to promote growth?
Starmer says “we are fooling ourselves” if we say Brexit is the only thing holding back growth. Growth was poor before Brexit, he says.
He says when he talks to businesses, they say stability is their priority.
But he does think there are improvements that can be made on Brexit, he says. They go beyond changes to the protocol.
No faith at all in this person. Seems so out of his depth. Maybe he could manage Chelsea.
Look if your house is on fire do you want a pyromaniac to handle it or a incompetent fire chief? Yes neither is ideal but I know what I would go for.
Then add that he hopefully might just play incompetent to the crowd to get into the position of fire chief in the first place.
Extracts from Starmer's speech today:
And here is the explanatory note from Labour defending this claim.
Ahem, something hasn't registered in Starmer's brain.and then:
Q: How would you change Brexit to promote growth?
Starmer says “we are fooling ourselves” if we say Brexit is the only thing holding back growth. Growth was poor before Brexit, he says.
He says when he talks to businesses, they say stability is their priority.
But he does think there are improvements that can be made on Brexit, he says. They go beyond changes to the protocol.
No faith at all in this person. Seems so out of his depth. Maybe he could manage Chelsea.
But he was quite right about growth of the economy being poor before Brexit. It was.
Nevertheless, you may be right in your view of Starmer.
But out of the choices of him, Sunak or even Boris, I know who I would go with. Just look at what happened when Truss became leader.
And I doubt very much that Britain is unique in having a terrible batch of politicians. I mean just look at the US. Same for Germany. And is Macron really any better?
To be honest it's too late any way you look at it now. The time would have been 2014, 2015 and first half 2016. However we all know how that went, the snake oil men won. Their lies went unchecked back then and their promises have shown themselves up to be nothing but the toddler's dreams everyone with half a brain said at the time. The majority of the electorate has shown itself to be gullible and ignorant, or at the very least reckless in pursuing actual goals.I don't buy the lie to get into power and then change it. If he gets into power, it's too late, what can he do several years down the line. The time to do something was over the last 7 years. his only contribution was 'we'll hold a second referendum and have a new deal within six months' or 'we will accept a deal with the EU if we have the same benefits outside as inside'. Pathetic.
'Businesses need stability' - yeah - that's what you had before Brexit. They also need to sell their products without barriers. Absolutely clueless.
Forward to Turnip!Exactly this thread has become nothing but an echo chamber.
Brexiteers' believe they won (exactly what, many are not sure), Remainers keep on moaning, about losses which are not always clearly addressed (maybe come more so in future) but if VAR had been around they would be blaming that for the Leave result.
Surely all that matters now is the way forward?
Amazingly went shopping today, half a kilo of red firm tomatoes, whole pack of mushrooms and a beautiful firm red pepper all for a grand total of €3.63 - and not a trace of frost on any of it.
Same here. But not in a supermarket. The local green grocer. Red pepper was 69p, peck of plumb tomatoes £1.19 and cartoon of chestnut mushrooms £1.49. Ingredients for pasta.
So Sunak just killed Brexit dead, right?
Brexit means brexit.What exactly does get Brexit over the line mean?
Brexit was over the line when we left, what does it mean to Brexiters?
