Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[devilish]

The system has many critics but we had a vote on changing it and decided against doing so. There is no perfect system and I'm not convinced that there really is a better one.If Junker wants no borders then he is clearly out of touch with most of the people living in the EU. That doesn't seem to matter in the EU which was my point, he doesn't have anything close to a mandate for such a move.

The British system is not just unfair but undemocratic. My vote counts for fecking nothing and there's thousands of vote like that. We had something similar In Malta and in 1982 it nearly caused a civil war. Things changed in 1987. You better have your own house in order before criticising the eu election


He won't get that because someone will veto it to the ground and most European countries are anti immigration. The problem is the flow of asylum seekers. We can't send them back and it's unfair that Greece, Malta, Italy and Co ends up with taken care of hordes of immigrants they never colonised, bombed etc

 

[Javi]

The system has many critics but we had a vote on changing it and decided against doing so. There is no perfect system and I'm not convinced that there really is a better one.If Junker wants no borders then he is clearly out of touch with most of the people living in the EU. That doesn't seem to matter in the EU which was my point, he doesn't have anything close to a mandate for such a move.

Juncker didn't speak for the EU but for himself when he made that claim. Not sure how you concluded that therefore the EU doesn't care about opinions from the people.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

Juncker didn't speak for the EU but for himself when he made that claim. Not sure how you concluded that therefore the EU doesn't care about opinions from the people.

He spoke as the commission president, going on the record promoting a policy which does not have the support of most people living in the EU. I think it is fair comment to say he doesn't give a shit what the people he is supposed to be working for want.

 

[Javi]

He spoke as the commission president, going on the record promoting a policy which does not have the support of most people living in the EU. I think it is fair comment to say he doesn't give a shit what the people he is supposed to be working for want.

I also think he's a clown but it's not true that he was speaking for someone else than hinself. Check the article. I also wouldn't disagree with your last statement but let's be accurate on our criticism.

 

[Chorley1974]

Still so many unable to accept Brexit. Let's keep repeating the referendum until we get the result that we want eh.

 

[devilish]

Still so many unable to accept Brexit. Let's keep repeating the referendum until we get the result that we want eh.

From a European perspective the only ones who can't accept brexit is the brexiters. Brexit mean actually activating clause 50 rather than just talk about it

 

[Bury Red]

Still so many unable to accept Brexit. Let's keep repeating the referendum until we get the result that we want eh.

Yeah, we should just get over it and applaud the majority vote that has condemned us to 2 years in a financially ruinous limbo followed by feck knows what because the liars the idiots chose to follow never actually had a plan and were actually hoping for a close defeat themselves. It was an idiotic protest vote and it matters not whether you were demonstrating your dislike of immigrants (who will keep coming anyway), our politicians (I'm sure this will scare them into improving) or the EU and it's pesky rules (none of which any of you seem to be able to name).

But you won, we should just roll over and accept it and bide our time to the next referendum in 30 years eh? Just like the opposition in parliament rolls over and remains silent after their rivals win the general election eh?

If Brexit's so bloody great and we should learn to live with it then please show us all the improvements it has wrought so far...

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

I didn't vote for Brexit but it has probably saved my job for a while with the drop in value of the pound so there is that I guess.

We joined the EEC in 1973, I don't think anyone could prove that decision was a good or bad idea within the first three months. Thinking about it I'm not sure they could do that 40 years after so we are just going to have to accept the fact that we are out and we are not going to know one way or the other.

 

[devilish]

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-germany-idUKKCN1130GD


German Economy Minister Sigmar Gabriel said on Sunday that if Britain's exit from the European Union was badly handled and other member countries followed its lead, Europe would go "down the drain".

"Brexit is bad but it won't hurt us as much economically as some fear - it's more of a psychological problem and it's a huge problem politically," Gabriel, the deputy to Chancellor Angela Merkel in Germany's governing coalition, told a news conference.

He added that the world was now looking at Europe as an unstable continent.

"If we organise Brexit in the wrong way, then we'll be in deep trouble so now we need to make sure that we don't allow Britain to keep the nice things, so to speak, related to Europe while taking no responsibility," Gabriel said.

Since Britain's stunning June 23 referendum vote to leave the European Union, all eyes have been on Germany to indicate a way out of danger for the 27 members who will remain.

On Aug. 24, Merkel said remaining member states must listen to each other carefully and avoid rushing into policy decisions. "If you do it wrong from the beginning and you don't listen, – and act just for the sake of acting - then you can make many mistakes," the conservative German leader said.

Merkel has met 15 other European heads of state during the past week to prepare the groundwork for a Sept. 16 EU summit in Bratislava aimed at shoring up the battered bloc.

A British government spokesman said in mid-August that Prime Minister Theresa May will not begin formal divorce talks with the EU before the end of the year.

EU leaders are refusing to countenance a "Europe a la carte" by letting Britain select the parts of its future relationship that it may like, such as access to the bloc's single market of 500 million consumers, while dispensing with EU principles such as the free movement of people.



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What many including myself has been saying all along. The EU literally cant afford giving the UK a good deal and the UK are overrating their economic power over the EU

 

[Chorley1974]

Yeah, we should just get over it and applaud the majority vote that has condemned us to 2 years in a financially ruinous limbo followed by feck knows what because the liars the idiots chose to follow never actually had a plan and were actually hoping for a close defeat themselves. It was an idiotic protest vote and it matters not whether you were demonstrating your dislike of immigrants (who will keep coming anyway), our politicians (I'm sure this will scare them into improving) or the EU and it's pesky rules (none of which any of you seem to be able to name).

But you won, we should just roll over and accept it and bide our time to the next referendum in 30 years eh? Just like the opposition in parliament rolls over and remains silent after their rivals win the general election eh?

If Brexit's so bloody great and we should learn to live with it then please show us all the improvements it has wrought so far...

Meow. I'm not a Brexit person, I didn't vote for it, I don't think the timing is right in term of the global economic recovery. What I don't get is your and others ridiculous outrage at democracy in process. Can you not just respect the democratic process, rather than have a we know best, brexit people are stupid attitude???

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

I thought the talk in the news about a North Sea Union was interesting, something i'll have to look into later.

From a European perspective the only ones who can't accept brexit is the brexiters. Brexit mean actually activating clause 50 rather than just talk about it

Much of the blame for which, one can lay at the feet of the Remainer-led government that had implemented no planning in the event of a Brexit. The less said about the official opposition, the better; they're either bickering among themselves, or talking about a second referendum.

It is only right and proper that the UK gets all of its ducks in a row before starting the negotiating process.

 

[Cheesy]

I thought the talk in the news about a North Sea Union was interesting, something i'll have to look into later.




Much of the blame for which, one can lay at the feet of the Remainer-led government that had implemented no planning in the event of a Brexit. The less said about the official opposition, the better; they're either bickering among themselves, or talking about a second referendum.

It is only right and proper that the UK gets all of its ducks in a row before starting the negotiating process.

Cameron should've absolutely done more in the case of Brexit, but I don't see how any Brexiter can be alright with the fact that their own side had no plan, vision or conception of how post-Brexit Britain would look.

Boris ruled himself out of becoming PM shortly afterwards once Gove stabbed him in the back, Gove's a fecking idiot, and Leadsom didn't last long either. Then you've got Farage, who backed out of politics altogether once the vote passed, rather convenient considering he now doesn't have to do anything and can just appear on TV like a reality celebrity whenever he feels like it.

I mean...I can understand Boris not having a plan because he never fully supported Brexit...it was a political move on his part to try and further advance his career, but Farage has been building to this for his entire political career. Why is he now so intent on backing out that it's passed? Surely if he cares about the UK being outside the EU so much, he'd want to be as involved and as influential as he possibly can be on the process of Brexit? To ensure we see reduced immigration, for example? Or to ensure we get the best deals he believes to be possible? The fact he's now retreated into the background despite being one of Brexit's central figures speaks volumes about the whole campaign and the farce it was.

 

[endless_wheelies]

When I look back I actually think it was all of our faults that leave won, not just the campaign teams themselves.

The average leave voters were far more proactive in their approach to swaying other people to vote leave; whilst most remainers were pretty much just content to sit on forums we were already signed up to such as this and guffaw at the fallacies of leave arguments, the leavers were actively peddling their crap in as many corners of the internet and beyond as they could find and it should be no surprise that in the end they found enough people to swallow their crap that they claimed an overall majority.

What I now for the life of me don't understand is why the UK and the EU are not talking to each other about reaching a settlement where the decisive 1.7% of the electorate is satisfied that we can remain.

It's hardly insurmountable.

 

[Adisa]

I keep hearing that may is preparing for negotiations to trigger A 50. The Europeans have made it abundantly clear that there will be no negotiation (formal or informal) until A 50 is triggered. What's going on?

 

[devilish]

I thought the talk in the news about a North Sea Union was interesting, something i'll have to look into later.




Much of the blame for which, one can lay at the feet of the Remainer-led government that had implemented no planning in the event of a Brexit. The less said about the official opposition, the better; they're either bickering among themselves, or talking about a second referendum.

It is only right and proper that the UK gets all of its ducks in a row before starting the negotiating process.

I think the EU countries can't care less about that TBH. The more time passes the more patience will wear thin and that will be reflected in the negotiations. Its ridiculous that the UK would go into such an important decisions without plans in hand and that will be perceived as weak from your part.

 

[Jippy]

Hmm, this might be a pipe dream, but talk of sector by sector common market access deals, eg we keep financial services in and stay in for cars too. And get to limit migration.
Might be a bit cherry-picking for Juncker.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...access-to-single-market-and-curb-migration-u/

 

[devilish]

Hmm, this might be a pipe dream, but talk of sector by sector common market access deals, eg we keep financial services in and stay in for cars too. And get to limit migration.
Might be a bit cherry-picking for Juncker.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...access-to-single-market-and-curb-migration-u/

I much doubt that will happen. Germany may enjoy the deal on cars but others cant care less about that and they are armed with the Veto. Every country will want a piece of the cake. Spain would probably want shared sovreignity of Gibraltar, most of Europe will insist for freedom of movement and countries like Ireland, France, Germany etc would want a piece of the financial services

 

[Jippy]

I much doubt that will happen. Germany may enjoy the deal on cars but others cant care less about that and they are armed with the Veto

Probably. Let's face it though, we face more than two years of theories and speculation.

 

[devilish]

Probably. Let's face it though, we face more than two years of theories and speculation.

The problem is that the UK has absolutely no idea of what the EU is all about. FFS EU expert Davis thought that the UK would be able to conduct ad hoc trade deals with individual EU countries which is totally illegally within the EU system. Such ignorance is contributing in insulting more and more countries who will be forced to act hostile to show their people that they are not some puppet inside Merkel's control. The EU isn't helping. Backroom meetings between Italy, France and Germany hasn't helped. It's ridiculous but there seem to be an agenda from both the UK (May appointing Boris as foreign secretary is another example of what I am saying) and Brussels for talks to fail.

I dont know alot about Barnier although he's said to be quite a tough cookie whose not very fond of the British. However I do know alot about Malmstrom and she used to take care of immigration and my country/Italy clashed swords with her for years. She's quite a Ahole, the type you wouldn't want her around during negotiation time. The Maltese are pretty EUphiles but Malmstrom is the equivalent for them as Thatcher was for the miners. This wont be pretty

 

[711]

Neither side has been proved right or wrong in such a short period of time, but two things stick in my mind:
Firstly how anyone with investments has gained substantially, not what I forecast but very welcome. Those without will probably be worse off for it in time though.
Secondly how Boris utterly shat himself when he won, something he clearly hadn't planned for, and how he lost his chance to be PM when it was actually so close. Highly amusing.

 

[devilish]

Neither side has been proved right or wrong in such a short period of time, but two things stick in my mind:
Firstly how anyone with investments has gained substantially, not what I forecast but very welcome. Those without will probably be worse off for it in time though.
Secondly how Boris utterly shat himself when he won, something he clearly hadn't planned for, and how he lost his chance to be PM when it was actually so close. Highly amusing.

Neither side has been proven right or wrong because nothing went according to their plans. Both Leavers and Remainers believed that if the leavers won, there would have been a swift Brexit lead by a leaver. The leavers thought that swift Brexit would bring the near collapse of the EU with Brussels begging at Westminster for a trade deal with them in a bid to keep the whole ship afloat. The Remainers believed that a swift Brexit would shock the British economic system to the core, which would lead to an exodus of both businesses and immigrants. Instead we've got a delayed Brexit with a Remainer in command and the three prominent Brexit leaders skinning each other alive for a place near the sun.

May's plan is almost diabolical. While Boris, Farage and Gove were busy slagging everyone off (Obama, Clinton, experts, EU etc) she stayed in line with her leader (which shows loyalty but also allowed her reputation with the big players to remain almost intact) without showing too much commitment to the Remainer's camp. That allowed her to shine while the rest were busy either resigning or skinning each other alive. After she became prime minister she gave the Leaver camp enough rope to hang themselves with it. If the UK gets a good Brexit deal then that would be thanks to May's firm leadership (the UK is begging for a new Thatcher). If it gets a raw deal it will be all the Brexit minister and Foreign secretary's fault. They were the ones who dragged the UK into Brexit and they were the ones who should have delivered the goods.

What concerns me is, with so much Game of Thrones drama going on between Tory Brexiters, Tory remainers, Blairites, Hippies who sit on train's floors and Scottish independents can the UK deliver a united and experienced front capable of bringing results against the big boys (US, China, EU etc)? Cause the impression being given at the moment is that the UK lack neither the expertise nor the willingness to make things work. Boris assignment is a kick at the face for the EU, Clinton and Putin (most PMs really) while May's stance on Hinkley Point must have pissed the Chinese big time.

Its time for the UK to take these issues very seriously. Barnier's appointment + its reluctance to start preliminary talks are a clear intention from the EU that it will be hitting hard. If you also have to deal with Malmstrom than seriously guys you should get your act together.

 

[Wibble]

What many including myself has been saying all along. The EU literally cant afford giving the UK a good deal and the UK are overrating their economic power over the EU

Yes. Europe would be mad to give an inch. In or out. You can't cherry pick the bits you like but refuse to pay for the rest.

 

[Wibble]

Hmm, this might be a pipe dream, but talk of sector by sector common market access deals, eg we keep financial services in and stay in for cars too. And get to limit migration.
Might be a bit cherry-picking for Juncker.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...access-to-single-market-and-curb-migration-u/

That sounds like pie in the sky bullshit to me.

 

[Jippy]

That sounds like pie in the sky bullshit to me.

Was the Telegraph's lead story yesterday and they've oddly written it as fact rather than conjecture. I guess they may well be planning it, but getting the EU to agree is a whole other issue.

 

[Wibble]

Meow. I'm not a Brexit person, I didn't vote for it, I don't think the timing is right in term of the global economic recovery. What I don't get is your and others ridiculous outrage at democracy in process. Can you not just respect the democratic process, rather than have a we know best, brexit people are stupid attitude???

Bretix voters must be stupid or they wouldn't have voted as they did. It is outright the most stupid thing to occur in British politics in forever.

 

[Wibble]

Was the Telegraph's lead story yesterday and they've oddly written it as fact rather than conjecture. I guess they may well be planning it, but getting the EU to agree is a whole other issue.

The Torygraph were for Britex weren't they? So perhaps it is an "Always look on the bright side of life" attempt to paint Britex as anything other than an utter disaster?

 

[Jippy]

The Torygraph were for Britex weren't they? So perhaps it is an "Always look on the bright side of life" attempt to paint Britex as anything other than an utter disaster?

They were. It got a bit confusing at the end though, especially when the Mail on Sunday did late switch to remain while the DM stayed rabidly Brexit.
The Tel's finance and business pages have been consistently banging the 'we'll somehow rise as an ecomonic powerhouse' drum.

 

[Bury Red]

Meow. I'm not a Brexit person, I didn't vote for it, I don't think the timing is right in term of the global economic recovery. What I don't get is your and others ridiculous outrage at democracy in process. Can you not just respect the democratic process, rather than have a we know best, brexit people are stupid attitude???

What democracy in progress? Democracy is a system of self governance where the majority elect a representative to govern the country to their will. It's not perfect, we rarely end up with the government we wanted but we rest safe in the knowledge that in 4 or 5 years time we can vote out this bunch of incompetents and replace them with somebody equally inept.

The Brexit vote was not required, it was a vanity vote on the part of Cameron looking to rein in the right wing of his party and voters who were beginning to sway in the direction of the noisy pub racist and his one issue party of bigotry. It was a chance for Cameron to call them out and force them to toe the line and at the same time deal with his old Eton chum Boris who was jostling for position. He had no need nor mandate to call the referendum but did so secure in the knowledge that he couldn't lose. The idiotic braying public school twats gambled away my right to a European citizenship I held proudly for almost my entire life. They gambled away our short term and possibly long term financial security and our voice at the table in how Europe works. I didn't give them the right to gamble all that away, I'm unlikely to ever see a chance to vote and fix this debacle again but somehow I have to suck it up and live by this democratic decision that saw 36% of the electorate vote out, 35% in and the remaining 29% too idle, feckless, disenfranchised or stupid to be bothered voting. Excuse me if I don't celebrate this marvelous democracy or accept that I should be forced to live by such a fecking stupid decision.

 

[Stanley Road]

Bretix voters must be stupid or they wouldn't have voted as they did. It is outright the most stupid thing to occur in British politics in forever.

Really?

 

[devilish]

I wouldn't say stupid just terribly mislead. Ignorance, British empire nostalgia and xenophobia had also played it's part

 

[Wibble]

Really?

Or perhaps gullible. Really, really gullible.

And those who will suffer the most voted to leave the most.

 

[Wibble]

What democracy in progress? Democracy is a system of self governance where the majority elect a representative to govern the country to their will. It's not perfect, we rarely end up with the government we wanted but we rest safe in the knowledge that in 4 or 5 years time we can vote out this bunch of incompetents and replace them with somebody equally inept.

The Brexit vote was not required, it was a vanity vote on the part of Cameron looking to rein in the right wing of his party and voters who were beginning to sway in the direction of the noisy pub racist and his one issue party of bigotry. It was a chance for Cameron to call them out and force them to toe the line and at the same time deal with his old Eton chum Boris who was jostling for position. He had no need nor mandate to call the referendum but did so secure in the knowledge that he couldn't lose. The idiotic braying public school twats gambled away my right to a European citizenship I held proudly for almost my entire life. They gambled away our short term and possibly long term financial security and our voice at the table in how Europe works. I didn't give them the right to gamble all that away, I'm unlikely to ever see a chance to vote and fix this debacle again but somehow I have to suck it up and live by this democratic decision that saw 36% of the electorate vote out, 35% in and the remaining 29% too idle, feckless, disenfranchised or stupid to be bothered voting. Excuse me if I don't celebrate this marvelous democracy or accept that I should be forced to live by such a fecking stupid decision.

Well said Bury. I've already applied for an Irish passport for my son. Wish I could get one.

 

[PedroMendez]

I wouldn't say stupid just terribly mislead. Ignorance, British empire nostalgia and xenophobia had also played it's part

I mostly agree with that. The Brexit campaign was a horror-show of dishonesty. That said it is quite damning for the remain-campaign to lose against that and they bear a fair share of responsibility as well. British politicians (including those who campaigned for remain) used the EU as punching-bag for decades. There is a lot to dislike about the EU, but they mostly used it to deflect from their own incompetence.


That said never underestimate the ability of politicians to come up with compromises that preserve the status-quo.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Or perhaps gullible. Really, really gullible.

And those who will suffer the most voted to leave the most.

I'd say those who will suffer the most are the children of those who voted to leave the most.

I feel genuinely sorry for the young people, the majority of whom voted to stay, who potentially won't have free travel in the most culturally diverse continent in the world in their future.

 

[Cheesy]

I'd say those who will suffer the most are the children of those who voted to leave the most.

I feel genuinely sorry for the young people, the majority of whom voted to stay, who potentially won't have free travel in the most culturally diverse continent in the world in their future.

It's pretty much the standard in the UK. Younger people voted for greater numbers in Scotland to go independent, younger people tend not to vote Tory, and of course younger people didn't vote for Brexit. Oldies vote in great numbers, though, and they're only increasing in numbers.

And of course there's not much that can be done about that as such...because old people obviously still have the right to vote and don't deserve to have it stripped from them, even if it's annoying to see them dictating vote after vote in a direction that doesn't seem to suit the younger in the country at all.

 

[devilish]

I mostly agree with that. The Brexit campaign was a horror-show of dishonesty. That said it is quite damning for the remain-campaign to lose against that and they bear a fair share of responsibility as well. British politicians (including those who campaigned for remain) used the EU as punching-bag for decades. There is a lot to dislike about the EU, but they mostly used it to deflect from their own incompetence.


That said never underestimate the ability of politicians to come up with compromises that preserve the status-quo.

This

Tbf the British politicians aren't the only ones doing that. It happens everywhere . Maybe it's time for the eu to hire ambassadors in all eu countries which can keep tabs on what happens in the area and who can defend the eu from unfair criticism

 

[Cheesy]

This

Tbf the British politicians aren't the only ones doing that. It happens everywhere . Maybe it's time for the eu to hire ambassadors in all eu countries which can keep tabs on what happens in the area and who can defend the eu from unfair criticism

I don't think that'd work. Such figures would probably end up being relatively spineless, more propaganda tools for bigger EU figures than anything else. They'd also probably be construed by a large part of the general public as out of touch figures coming over to tell us what to think...and they'd maybe have a point. I mean, what would happen when someone makes a legit criticism of the EU? Does the ambassador just go, "Yeah, fair enough", or do they argue in favour of everything EU related?

 

[Penna]

I completely agree with @Bury Red and I feel the same way. I like being in Europe, I like being a European and I have no desire to go back to what we had when I was younger. I'm still really angry that that's been taken away from me.

We have to assume that the people who chose not to vote were not interested in/uninformed about the whole thing, which generally happens if you are OK with the status quo. If someone offers you something different, people who want it will not miss their chance to vote. The same thing happened in the Welsh Assembly vote, I think just over one-quarter of the electorate actually voted "yes". Almost three-quarters either voted "no" or simply didn't care enough about it to vote at all.

I really think that for referendums, we need a much higher percentage voting "yes" before any changes are made - at least 75%.

 

[berbatrick]

Or perhaps gullible. Really, really gullible.

And those who will suffer the most voted to leave the most.

The strongest support for Brexit came from Conservatives, not Labour. Labuor Brexit voters were well under half of 2015 Labour voters.
Of course, it may be true that a majority of the the Conservative Brexit voters are working class, in which case, they voted against their interests repeatedly.

 

[Cheesy]

I completely agree with @Bury Red and I feel the same way. I like being in Europe, I like being a European and I have no desire to go back to what we had when I was younger. I'm still really angry that that's been taken away from me.

We have to assume that the people who chose not to vote were not interested in/uninformed about the whole thing, which generally happens if you are OK with the status quo. If someone offers you something different, people who want it will not miss their chance to vote. The same thing happened in the Welsh Assembly vote, I think just over one-quarter of the electorate actually voted "yes". Almost three-quarters either voted "no" or simply didn't care enough about it to vote at all.

I really think that for referendums, we need a much higher percentage voting "yes" before any changes are made - at least 75%.

The problem is though that this is a bit of a dangerous assumption. You can assume that, yeah, but it could also equally be argued the other way: that people who didn't vote didn't care all that much about the EU and weren't bothered about remaining in it, but didn't care enough to leave either. You'd also probably never see referendums on such issues - David Cameron would've never offered a Scottish or EU referendum at all had it required 75% to pass, because it'd be a waste of time since everyone knows it's not going to be anywhere near that high.

75% is just a bit too big of a number. It's massive - imagine 74.9% of the population voting one way on a particular issue and not getting it. You'd be talking about denying the will of an overwhelming, emphatic majority.

I wonder if a sort of "best of three" option would be viable for such decisions? Have three votes, spread over a few months. First to two wins - you've then got a decisive, confirmed choice, and more of a basis that it wasn't a kneejerk, sudden reaction.