Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Berbasbullet]

Is it not also a WTO requirement anyway?

Pretty certain this is true.

 

[Abizzz]

The deal didn't get through UK parliament...

Yes because the UK parliament voted in a government and then failed to support it. How is that anyone else's problem?

 

[WensleyMU]

Sure, but the UK also voted "no" to about eight other alternatives and "yes" to precisely none.

This happens with a democracy like the UK. It's frustrating but commonplace.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

This happens with a democracy like the UK. It's frustrating but commonplace.

Strangely in 27 other democracies they all agreed.

 

[WensleyMU]

Yes because the UK parliament voted in a government and then failed to support it. How is that anyone else's problem?

I refer you back to my point a few pages back about the ineffective nature of hung parliaments and coalition governments.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I refer you back to my point a few pages back about the ineffective nature of hung parliaments and coalition governments.

May had a majority government before the 2017 election and she and her government negotiated the agreement, furthermore it's not just because there are different parties involved , it's because there are different factions within each party.

Haven't had your opinion on having open borders with all the other WTO members.

 

[WensleyMU]

Strangely in 27 other democracies they all agreed.

It's a shame there are 28 involved though.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

It's a shame there are 28 involved though.

Not for much longer hopefully.

 

[Abizzz]

I refer you back to my point a few pages back about the ineffective nature of hung parliaments and coalition governments.

Well, what a shame then. If the UK is just too disfunctional at the moment to come to an agreement it can honor I don't see any reason for any further negotiations... they'd all be pointless, no matter the outcome.

 

[Berbasbullet]

May had a majority government before the 2017 election and she and her government negotiated the agreement, furthermore it's not just because there are different parties involved , it's because there are different factions within each party.

Haven't had your opinion on having open borders with all the other WTO members.

Is that how it works then? If we open our borders to ROI then we then have open borders with all? So what does that practically mean? Anyone can just waltz into the UK?

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Is that how it works then? If we open our borders to ROI then we then have open borders with all? So what does that practically mean? Anyone can just waltz into the UK?

Theoretically unless you have an agreement with countries, then all WTO members have to be treated the same.

 

[WensleyMU]

May had a majority government before the 2017 election and she and her government negotiated the agreement, furthermore it's not just because there are different parties involved , it's because there are different factions within each party.

Haven't had your opinion on having open borders with all the other WTO members.

May wasn't very bright was she?

By open borders with WTO members I assume you mean equal trading terms of we give Ireland MFN status? Thems the rules, though it would require another WTO nation to actually complain about it for anything to happen, and then take years to resolve.

 

[WensleyMU]

Is that how it works then? If we open our borders to ROI then we then have open borders with all? So what does that practically mean? Anyone can just waltz into the UK?

FoM of people doesn't exist under WTO rules as it does under EU rules.

So no, anyone couldnt just waltz in.

 

[WensleyMU]

Well, what a shame then. If the UK is just too disfunctional at the moment to come to an agreement it can honor I don't see any reason for any further negotiations... they'd all be pointless, no matter the outcome.

The UK is far from alone in this respect.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

May wasn't very bright was she?

By open borders with WTO members I assume you mean equal trading terms of we give Ireland MFN status? Thems the rules, though it would require another WTO nation to actually complain about it for anything to happen, and then take years to resolve.

No she wasn't but in hindsight I doubt it would make much difference, there are too many divisions , the Uk parliament will never agree on anything let alone something that will be acceptable to the EU.

Re trading, yes but you are not giving Ireland MFN status, it's the whole EU but annoying other nations will not help you get any deals and you've got to have your tariff schedule agreed. Sounds like rogue nation status.

 

[Abizzz]

The UK is far from alone in this respect.

Of the 28 it is.

 

[WensleyMU]

Of the 28 it is.

It really isn't.

 

[JPRouve]

It really isn't.

How is that?

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

So Corbyn wants a referendum but his own party will remain neutral on select positions, wtf?

If they ever manage to get another referendum in place the options should only be "Leave without deal" and "Remain".

"Leave with deal" is just a compromise that aligns more with Remain anyway and dilutes the whole fundamentals of having a brexit in first place.

 

[WensleyMU]

How is that?

Hung parliaments and coalition governments are generally weaker than a single party having a majority.

They are often unstable, slow to pass legislation and are almost always strained.

There are several in the EU.

 

[Shinjch]

So Corbyn wants a referendum but his own party will remain neutral on select positions, wtf?

If they ever manage to get another referendum in place the options should only be "Leave without deal" and "Remain".

"Leave with deal" is just a compromise that aligns more with Remain anyway and dilutes the whole fundamentals of having a brexit in first place.

How does leaving align more with Remain?

 

[JPRouve]

Hung parliaments and coalition governments are generally weaker than a single party having a majority.

They are often unstable, slow to pass legislation and are almost always strained.

There are several in the EU.

This makes no sense and doesn't answer the point made by @Abizzz, the 27 states meant to agree on a deal agreed on a deal, one member state out of 28 failed to agree on a deal with himself.

 

[Shamwow]

So Corbyn wants a referendum but his own party will remain neutral on select positions, wtf?

If they ever manage to get another referendum in place the options should only be "Leave without deal" and "Remain".

"Leave with deal" is just a compromise that aligns more with Remain anyway and dilutes the whole fundamentals of having a brexit in first place.

Wtf indeed

 

[Massive Spanner]

Hung parliaments and coalition governments are generally weaker than a single party having a majority.

They are often unstable, slow to pass legislation and are almost always strained.

There are several in the EU.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

How does leaving align more with Remain?

Because such an option depends more on kind of deal, which nobody knows. If you are leaving with diluted/minimal restrictions on immigration, border, trade etc...then what advantages does leaving offer?

 

[WensleyMU]

This makes no sense and doesn't answer the point made by @Abizzz, the 27 states meant to agree on a deal agreed on a deal, one member state out of 28 failed to agree on a deal with himself.

It was a general comment regarding coalitions and the fact they often cannot find common ground.

This is the situation the UK is in. It did not pass the WA, therefore 27 EU members agreeing to it is irrelevant.

 

[Ultimate Grib]

But they can stop them in Dover whereas they couldn't stop them at the Irish border .The point I was trying to make is that there are things that that EU don't want to pass through an unchecked border after the Uk have left and probably neither does the UK.

Yes but they're on UK soil which is the ultimate destination of the vast majority of jungle inhabitants so the problem goes away for France. No deal will massively increase non-eu immigration which would defeat the purpose of having closed borders.

 

[Shinjch]

Because such an option depends more on kind of deal, which nobody knows. If you are leaving with diluted/minimal restrictions on immigration, border, trade etc...then what advantages does leaving offer?

And leaving with no deal solves this?

 

[JPRouve]

It was a general comment regarding coalitions and the fact they often cannot find common ground.

This is the situation the UK is in. It did not pass the WA, therefore 27 EU members agreeing to it is irrelevant.

Which is the point that Abizz made and you somehow disagreed with.

 

[WensleyMU]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

Not really sure what this has to do with anything nor am I convinced you do. You've picked it up as a buzzword in recent times and drop it randomly into conversations without much of an idea what it actually means.

A common practice these days.

 

[WensleyMU]

Which is the point that Abizz made and you somehow disagreed with.

It's been my point all along. That the WA is dead, and unless the EU is willing to come back to the table, then we leave with no deal.

Others keep refering to the 27 agreeing to it. I've maintained that the UK didn't pass it so therefore it is no longer under consideration.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Not really sure what this has to do with anything nor am I convinced you do. You've picked it up as a buzzword in recent times and drop it randomly into conversations without much of an idea what it actually means.

A common practice these days.

you were asked a question, deflected and instead harped on about some broader, irrelevant term. it's the textbook definition of whataboutism.

 

[JPRouve]

It's been my point all along. That the WA is dead, and unless the EU is willing to come back to the table, then we leave with no deal.

Others keep refering to the 27 agreeing to it. I've maintained that the UK didn't pass it so therefore it is no longer under consideration.

Are you doing it on purpose? You suggested that the UK weren't the only country failing to agree on a deal out of the 28 members of the EU when the other 27 actually agreed on a deal, it's the withdrawal agreement.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

And leaving with no deal solves this?

No, but if offers an definitive alternative to Remain.

 

[WensleyMU]

Are you doing it on purpose? You suggested that the UK weren't the only country failing to agree on a deal out of the 28 members of the EU when the other 27 actually agreed on a deal, it's the withdrawal agreement.

At no point did I say any other nation has failed to agree the deal. Only the UK parliament.

What the others do is irrelevant as the UK didn't pass the WA.

I also stated that coalitions are useless. This was a separate point to an earlier discussion.

 

[Shinjch]

No, but if offers an definitive alternative to Remain.

I would say that leaving with a deal is more definitive for the future than leaving with no deal.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I would say that leaving with a deal

Would be ... if people had a idea of what the deal was. What exactly are people voting for when almost all efforts till now have been unsuccessful to various extent. You're asking for a vote giving no details.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

At no point did I say any other nation has failed to agree the deal. Only the UK parliament.

What the others do is irrelevant as the UK didn't pass the WA.

I also stated that coalitions are useless. This was a separate point to an earlier discussion.

So what the Uk decide even if they could decide anything would also be irrelevant if all the other 27 didn't agree. The EU negotiated with the UK government and agreed an agreement - so what you're saying it is pointless negotiating with the UK government. Who are the EU supposed to negotiate with?
Only 73 days left of this farce.

 

[Shinjch]

Would be ... if people had a idea of what the deal was. What exactly are people voting for when almost all efforts till now have been unsuccessful to various extent. You're asking for a vote giving no details.

I wasn't asking for any vote. But asking for a vote for a vote with no deal on the ballot as opposed to the Withdrawal Agreement is asking for a vote where one option has no details.

 

[WensleyMU]

So what the Uk decide even if they could decide anything would also be irrelevant if all the other 27 didn't agree. The EU negotiated with the UK government and agreed an agreement - so what you're saying it is pointless negotiating with the UK government. Who are the EU supposed to negotiate with?
Only 73 days left of this farce.

Yes, if the UK agreed on something but any one of the 27 didn't agree, then it doesn't pass.

All sides have to agree.

This is why trade deals between the EU and others take years, even decades to conclude.

The EU is supposed to negotiate with the UK and it's members. The UK with its own parliament and the EU.