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Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

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If Farage manages to fool the people twice, the people deserve all the shit that comes with it. He peddled the same lies, lack of clear thought and reasonless phobia during the referendum and bailed as soon as it happened. Now he is back doing the same shit and receiving votes according to polls.
 
Wednesday at Stoke said:
If Farage manages to fool the people twice, the people deserve all the shit that comes with it. He peddled the same lies, lack of clear thought and reasonless phobia during the referendum and bailed as soon as it happened. Now he is back doing the same shit and receiving votes according to polls.
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Yep. You could see how much he was trying to squirm out of that interview, but his supporters will probably come away from it very happy that the BBC are completely unfair to him.
 
Dan_F said:
Yep. You could see how much he was trying to squirm out of that interview, but his supporters will probably come away from it very happy that the BBC are completely unfair to him.
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I think people underestimate just how reluctant people Are to change their mind... People form opinions quickly and look for evidence to back it up or for people to blame...

Farrage knows this with his dog whistle politics and blaming the EU or remoaners etc

He will do very well in these elections
 
spiriticon said:
So even if we remain, we are having most our MEPs represented by the Brexit Party.

How does that make anything better for the future relationship with the EU?
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Bear in mind the Tory and UKIP seat share at the last EU election was almost 60%. Optics wise it would royally suck if New UKIP won, but if that collective seat share can be brought under 50% then it can be seen as a win I think.
 
Wednesday at Stoke said:
If Farage manages to fool the people twice, the people deserve all the shit that comes with it. He peddled the same lies, lack of clear thought and reasonless phobia during the referendum and bailed as soon as it happened. Now he is back doing the same shit and receiving votes according to polls.
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It's true, but also fecked up as we'll all have to deal with the fallout...
 
berbatrick said:
Farage won that interview.
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Yep.

The problem is people think Farage has somehow tricked half of a Britain into believing the horse shit he spouts out but the reality is he is just portraying what a large chunk of this dump of country believes. Wouldn't be such a issue if the liberals accepted the only way to beat people like Farage is vote to for a left Labour Party.
 
711 said:
He did, I've not seen Marr look that flustered before, it was like he knew his script wasn't working but didn't know how to get out of it.
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Farage himself is predictable though given thats all he shouts about if someone asks him a question he isn't willing to answer. I've seen him do it several times now.
 
RedSky said:
Farage himself is predictable though given thats all he shouts about if someone asks him a question he isn't willing to answer. I've seen him do it several times now.
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You would think so but Marr was way off the mark, he just came across as having a personal attack on past history rather than addressing the key issue of the moment, Brexit. It played into Farage's hands for me. I'm not suggesting Farage is right by the way, just that he would have been satisfied with the way it went.
 
I would agree Farage won that. Really pathetic interview from the clips there.

Even the main crux of the interview is not worth exploring. Farage is about leaving the EU with or without a deal and from his view the Tories and Labour have been stuffing up the talks from day1. Also the free trade deal is there and Canada ++. Was he asked about the big problem of a Irish hard border?
 
redshaw said:
I would agree Farage won that. Really pathetic interview from the clips there.

Even the main crux of the interview is not worth exploring. Farage is about leaving the EU with or without a deal and from his view the Tories and Labour have been stuffing up the talks from day1. Also the free trade deal is there and Canada ++. Was he asked about the big problem of a Irish hard border?
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He has an answer for that - I don't want an irish hard border, so why are the EU forcing one?

It makes no sense, but it gets him through the question. Rinse and repeat.
 
Adisa said:
Sitting on the fence starting to fail Labour. Losing on both sides.
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Also this, for Westminster voting intention. Pretty incredible numbers.



Both parties looking in big trouble, but I think the Tories have the simpler route out of this mess. Ditch May, get Brexit out the door, they're on the way to recovery. As far Labour, it's a much trickier position to be in. Its pretty clear that they're losing support from both Remain and Leave voters, but even if they were to pivot to all out Remain, would they have enough credit in the bank left to stop the Remain vote from continuing to leave?
 
EwanI Ted said:
Also this, for Westminster voting intention. Pretty incredible numbers.



Both parties looking in big trouble, but I think the Tories have the simpler route out of this mess. Ditch May, get Brexit out the door, they're on the way to recovery. As far Labour, it's a much trickier position to be in. Its pretty clear that they're losing support from both Remain and Leave voters, but even if they were to pivot to all out Remain, would they have enough credit in the bank left to stop the Remain vote from continuing to leave?
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I think so, and more critically it’s their only available play left. If they continue to prevaricate then they are totally fecked, and if Corbyn can’t see that from the polling numbers then Labour are in serious trouble.
 
I think the party is fecked either way. Those numbers still show that roughly 50% still want brexit and don't care how they get it.
 
Kentonio said:
I think so, and more critically it’s their only available play left. If they continue to prevaricate then they are totally fecked, and if Corbyn can’t see that from the polling numbers then Labour are in serious trouble.
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Since Brexit will (presumably) happen eventually, the key for Labour will be to try and avoid the permanant blame of Remain voters. If it becomes set in stone that Labour "let us down" on Brexit, that kind of thing is hard to overcome.
 
Adisa said:
I think the party is fecked either way. Those numbers still show that roughly 50% still want brexit and don't care how they get it.
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I'm not sure about that. Not all the Con voters are hardcore leave, and those that are are probably the ones who switched to Brexit party in those polls.
 
EwanI Ted said:
Since Brexit will (presumably) happen eventually, the key for Labour will be to try and avoid the permanant blame of Remain voters. If it becomes set in stone that Labour "let us down" on Brexit, that kind of thing is hard to overcome.
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Exactly. And they're haemorrhaging support already because of that refusal to take a firm position. Long term (if Brexit happens) the Leave voters ultimately won't care what Labour's position was, because they'll have gotten what they wanted anyway. It's not like people in the north are going to turn into cast iron Tories over that. As you say, it's the Remainers who will hold the grudge for a very long time.

And to be honest, if we don't leave then yes Leavers will be the ones holding the grudge, but they're still the sizable minority in the Labour party. If you absolutely have to have a group pissed at you, logic would suggest the smaller group would be the wiser choice.
 
depressing that after all the Brexit fiasco over the last few years, people still seem to want it. utterly depressing.
 
EwanI Ted said:
Both parties looking in big trouble, but I think the Tories have the simpler route out of this mess. Ditch May, get Brexit out the door, they're on the way to recovery.
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Getting Brexit out the door means the uk economy taking a massive hit and a border in the north of Ireland. Anything less and it Tory members and leave voters will feel "betrayed".
 
EwanI Ted said:
Since Brexit will (presumably) happen eventually, the key for Labour will be to try and avoid the permanant blame of Remain voters. If it becomes set in stone that Labour "let us down" on Brexit, that kind of thing is hard to overcome.
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The elephant in the room is that Labour supporters aren't asking why their party is sitting on the fence. Is it just about having to placate their northern working class brexit support or is the problem more that Corbyn and McDonnell are actually Brexiters, but more problematically Brexiters who aren't prepared to admit it and argue their case with the rest of the party to reach an agreed position?

Labour needs to have an open and honest debate within itself as to what they want, and then hopefully whoever loses that debate, Remain or Leave, will at least accept they are the minority within the party and stay with it. That;s not going to happen with the current leaders, I feel.
 
Kentonio said:
Exactly. And they're haemorrhaging support already because of that refusal to take a firm position. Long term (if Brexit happens) the Leave voters ultimately won't care what Labour's position was, because they'll have gotten what they wanted anyway. It's not like people in the north are going to turn into cast iron Tories over that. As you say, it's the Remainers who will hold the grudge for a very long time.

And to be honest, if we don't leave then yes Leavers will be the ones holding the grudge, but they're still the sizable minority in the Labour party. If you absolutely have to have a group pissed at you, logic would suggest the smaller group would be the wiser choice.
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Corbyn and others in the NEC have, in my opinion, underestimated the impact of pissing off remain voters. Probably as much as the tories have, having spent the last three years trying to appease their right wing. The difference is that it is more important for the Tories not to piss off the leavers than it is Labour, whose problem is the opposite. There is a real danger for Labour of permanently losing a sizable chunk of remainers, if they haven't already.
 
711 said:
The elephant in the room is that Labour supporters aren't asking why their party is sitting on the fence. Is it just about having to placate their northern working class brexit support or is the problem more that Corbyn and McDonnell are actually Brexiters, but more problematically Brexiters who aren't prepared to admit it and argue their case with the rest of the party to reach an agreed position?

Labour needs to have an open and honest debate within itself as to what they want, and then hopefully whoever loses that debate, Remain or Leave, will at least accept they are the minority within the party and stay with it. That;s not going to happen with the current leaders, I feel.
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The problem is that an honest debate would make something clear fairly quick, that it's only Corbyn and his office that really want Brexit. A majority of MPs, members, Lords, Unions and voters all want a strong Remain position. If Corbyn were pro-EU, Labour would be a pro-EU party, simple as that. But since criticism of Corbyn results in a tide of criticism from his supporters in the party, no-one is prepared to have that conversation.
 
Isn't the problem that even though brexit loving Labour voters are in the minority, they're spread across many constituencies? Most of which are slim margins.
Apart from that, Corbyn and McDonnell are brexiteers so I find it difficult to trust them as well .
 
Adisa said:
Isn't the problem that even though brexit loving Labour voters are in the minority, they're spread across many constituencies? Most of which are slim margins.
Apart from that, Corbyn and McDonnell are brexiteers so I find it difficult to trust them as well .
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I made this point in an earlier post either in here or the Corbyn-thread. Labour Remainers are largely concentrated in cities where Labour MPs have unassailable super-majorities, whereas Labour Leavers are more evenly distributed across a multitude of less secure seats in the North and Midlands. I can't be bothered to dredge it up but I found a list of the top 20 or 30 safe seats from the 2017 election and the vast majority were Labour seats in big cities which voted Remain. The problem for Labour since the referendum is that a majority of their voters are Remainers, but a majority of the seats they hold voted Leave. Sitting on the fence did the trick in 2017 when Brexit day was 2 years off, but it's become increasingly untenable as we've approached and passed the original leaving date.
 
jeff_goldblum said:
I made this point in an earlier post either in here or the Corbyn-thread. Labour Remainers are largely concentrated in cities where Labour MPs have unassailable super-majorities, whereas Labour Leavers are more evenly distributed across a multitude of less secure seats in the North and Midlands. I can't be bothered to dredge it up but I found a list of the top 20 or 30 safe seats from the 2017 election and the vast majority were Labour seats in big cities which voted Remain. The problem for Labour since the referendum is that a majority of their voters are Remainers, but a majority of the seats they hold voted Leave. Sitting on the fence did the trick in 2017 when Brexit day was 2 years off, but it's become increasingly untenable as we've approached and passed the original leaving date.
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But isn't it also the case that even in strong leave constituencies, the majority of Labour voters are remain? This makes equivocation even in those areas probably not all that profitable as you might lose some remainers whilst not really satisfying the leavers either.

Constructive ambiguity was only ever a delaying tactic; doesn't make sense anymore, unless of course you are a leaver leading a majority remain party and you can't really say what you really, really want.
 
Yougov are not in line with other pollsters and have been comparatively generating lower Labour numbers for more than a year.
It would be worthwhile to wait and see if others show a similar crash.
 
stepic said:
depressing that after all the Brexit fiasco over the last few years, people still seem to want it. utterly depressing.
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Because the Brexiters think that the economic downturn was scaremongering and hasn't happened that much yet and so think they're safe from all the consequences. This is partly due to Osborne going on about the emergency budget etc which anyone sensible knew wouldn't happen straight away.

The downturn will happen but only after the UK have actually left the EU, then they can chase Farage through the streets and string him up in the Tower.
 
If Labour votes for a second referendum and then blows itself apart, if Tories vote for May's deal they also blow themselves apart...two big 'Bangs' for one Brexit.

Andrew Marr was laughable, the BBC with Farage are like the American media was with Trump, they think they can debate with these two, or worse still try to denigrate their views, in this case pulling up quotes of Farage's, past which probably 90% of his supporters would endorse anyway.
Neither Farage or Trump debates anything they simply state and re-state their point of view, but the media keeps falling for it. Farage supporters will not change their mind about him or Brexit, just as Trump supporters don't change their minds, whatever the so called 'clever' interviewers say.
 
Apparently Heidi Allen wants to debate Farage ahead of the European elections. No idea how long they plan on making it, but hopefully there's still time for her to debate Farage, after she's finished debating herself and all her previous comments regarding a second referendum.
 
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