Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

  • Total voters
    194
  • Poll closed .
EwanI Ted said:
As a Corbyn-sceptic left winger, I think the obvious answer would be that he would mess things up so badly that we'd end up with yet another long spell of Tory Government.
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What would that look like though, tangibly? Is it the policies themselves people have no confidence in, such as scrapping tuition fees which would be paid for by increasing corporation tax which might discourage investment, or his ability to actually execute plans? Maybe if we actually got some major corporations to pay their taxes in the first place like getting a grip of these online tech giants, we might not have as much to fear and could maybe send some people to University.

When I look at what he wants to do with the NHS, transport, welfare and education, it's very obviously going to hit the pocket of the elite. I completely understand, then, why most of them would hate the guy. For everyone else, I do wonder about the thought process. I'd be interested to hear more.
 
Sassy Colin said:
Interesting how Corbyn has gone from incompetent, Marxist, fool, to the saviour of our country, in a few short days.
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The current Tory leadership could be replaced by a stone and that stone would be a hero solely because of it's inability to make things worse.
 
Ady87 said:
What would that look like though, tangibly? Is it the policies themselves people have no confidence in, such as scrapping tuition fees which would be paid for by increasing corporation tax which might discourage investment, or his ability to actually execute plans? Maybe if we actually got some major corporations to pay their taxes in the first place like getting a grip of these online tech giants, we might not have as much to fear and could maybe send some people to University.

When I look at what he wants to do with the NHS, transport, welfare and education, it's very obviously going to hit the pocket of the elite. I completely understand, then, why most of them would hate the guy. For everyone else, I do wonder about the thought process. I'd be interested to hear more.
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The policies are a mixed bag, that's neither here nor there. I just look at this lot and simply dont believe they'd be able to implement the kind of reform you're talking about.
 
Abizzz said:
The current Tory leadership could be replaced by a stone and that stone would be a hero solely because of it's inability to make things worse.
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Oh, I'm sure Corbyn's lot could make things a whole lot worse.

A stone wouldn't be a bad idea, actually, since we're stuck between a rock & a hard place.
 
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Ady87 said:
What would that look like though, tangibly? Is it the policies themselves people have no confidence in, such as scrapping tuition fees which would be paid for by increasing corporation tax which might discourage investment, or his ability to actually execute plans? Maybe if we actually got some major corporations to pay their taxes in the first place like getting a grip of these online tech giants, we might not have as much to fear and could maybe send some people to University.

When I look at what he wants to do with the NHS, transport, welfare and education, it's very obviously going to hit the pocket of the elite. I completely understand, then, why most of them would hate the guy. For everyone else, I do wonder about the thought process. I'd be interested to hear more.
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Britain leaves the EU or remains in some sort of half in half out arrangement, either way, Britain takes up a lesser ecomonic position in the world and becomes less attractive to foreign investment, the pound weakens and GDP is lost. Corbyn implements his plans for unprecedented public spending, thus increasing national debt significantly. Corbyn implements his plans to tax corporations more heavily and tax the rich more heavily etc meaning business talent leaves for more sunny climes, whilst foreign business investment dwindles even further due to a ‘hostile’ trading environment. The public spending carries the economy for a while until we reach a cliff edge where it runs out and the lack of real economy coupled with massive public debt sends us into a deep depression.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
Britain leaves the EU or remains in some sort of half in half out arrangement, either way, Britain takes up a lesser ecomonic position in the world and becomes less attractive to foreign investment, the pound weakens and GDP is lost. Corbyn implements his plans for unprecedented public spending, thus increasing national debt significantly. Corbyn implements his plans to tax corporations more heavily and tax the rich more heavily etc meaning business talent leaves for more sunny climes, whilst foreign business investment dwindles even further due to a ‘hostile’ trading environment. The public spending carries the economy for a while until we reach a cliff edge where it runs out and the lack of real economy coupled with massive public debt sends us into a deep depression.
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Or the bullshit that make me pay more tax than hundreds of hugely profitable businesses.
 
Wibble said:
Or the bullshit that make me pay more tax than hundreds of hugely profitable businesses.
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Personally I’ve always thought Corbyn’s manifesto was complete nonsense in the light of Brexit. Of course no one ever knows how things will play out but the idea that Corbyn’s Labour can’t do a terrible job with the economy is woefully naive. If people are really expecting Corbyn to come in and create this quasi socialist utopia with a fantastic NHS and train service then I think they’ll be very disappointed.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
Personally I’ve always thought Corbyn’s manifesto was complete nonsense in the light of Brexit. Of course no one ever knows how things will play out but the idea that Corbyn’s Labour can’t do a terrible job with the economy is woefully naive. If people are really expecting Corbyn to come in and create this quasi socialist utopia with a fantastic NHS and train service then I think they’ll be very disappointed.
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I'm not a fan but it would be almost impossible to feck things up worse than the tories have.

A very low bar will agree.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
Personally I’ve always thought Corbyn’s manifesto was complete nonsense in the light of Brexit. Of course no one ever knows how things will play out but the idea that Corbyn’s Labour can’t do a terrible job with the economy is woefully naive. If people are really expecting Corbyn to come in and create this quasi socialist utopia with a fantastic NHS and train service then I think they’ll be very disappointed.
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He's going to build Utopia and make someone else pay for it. Unfortunately it's not just Americans that are seduced by this sort of message.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
Britain leaves the EU or remains in some sort of half in half out arrangement, either way, Britain takes up a lesser ecomonic position in the world and becomes less attractive to foreign investment, the pound weakens and GDP is lost. Corbyn implements his plans for unprecedented public spending, thus increasing national debt significantly. Corbyn implements his plans to tax corporations more heavily and tax the rich more heavily etc meaning business talent leaves for more sunny climes, whilst foreign business investment dwindles even further due to a ‘hostile’ trading environment. The public spending carries the economy for a while until we reach a cliff edge where it runs out and the lack of real economy coupled with massive public debt sends us into a deep depression.
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You dont want a tax haven and you dont want to see more business tax. Just what is it you do want Theresa?
 
Wibble said:
I'm not a fan but it would be almost impossible to feck things up worse than the tories have.

A very low bar will agree.
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It would take some doing, the Tories are on a 9 year run of fecking up just about everything they've touched.
 
711 said:
He's going to build Utopia and make someone else pay for it. Unfortunately it's not just Americans that are seduced by this sort of message.
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Which of his policies or pledges do you specifically think are unaffordable?
 
711 said:
He's going to build Utopia and make someone else pay for it. Unfortunately it's not just Americans that are seduced by this sort of message
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Even, if Jeremy gets someone else to pay, the EU rules will not let him build Utopia, at least in the way he envisages; the German Banks and the IMF will frown on his methods and they have stopped the Greeks and will shortly stop the Italians. Jeremy knows that a large part of his plan is to get the 'rich to pay' but an even larger element is how to get the freedom to spend it how he wants within EU guideless, for example EU rules on financial aid to failing companies/industries will prevent much of the State aid he wants to deliver. Jeremy knows to build his kind of Utopia he needs to be outside the EU, at least for part of it!

If Jeremy can get Mrs May's Government to take the blame for leaving, (but we would then be 'away free' and he to pursue his ideas unencumbered) he will do so, but with 'much regret' of course.
 
Maticmaker said:
Even, if Jeremy gets someone else to pay, the EU rules will not let him build Utopia, at least in the way he envisages; the German Banks and the IMF will frown on his methods and they have stopped the Greeks and will shortly stop the Italians. Jeremy knows that a large part of his plan is to get the 'rich to pay' but an even larger element is how to get the freedom to spend it how he wants within EU guideless, for example EU rules on financial aid to failing companies/industries will prevent much of the State aid he wants to deliver. Jeremy knows to build his kind of Utopia he needs to be outside the EU, at least for part of it!

If Jeremy can get Mrs May's Government to take the blame for leaving, (but we would then be 'away free' and he to pursue his ideas unencumbered) he will do so, but with 'much regret' of course.
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If by stop you mean refuse to gift money, then sure. Did you gift Greece any money? Are you going to gift it to Italy? Because if not then you're in the way of their democratically elected politicians.
 
Maticmaker said:
Even, if Jeremy gets someone else to pay, the EU rules will not let him build Utopia, at least in the way he envisages; the German Banks and the IMF will frown on his methods and they have stopped the Greeks and will shortly stop the Italians. Jeremy knows that a large part of his plan is to get the 'rich to pay' but an even larger element is how to get the freedom to spend it how he wants within EU guideless, for example EU rules on financial aid to failing companies/industries will prevent much of the State aid he wants to deliver. Jeremy knows to build his kind of Utopia he needs to be outside the EU, at least for part of it!

If Jeremy can get Mrs May's Government to take the blame for leaving, (but we would then be 'away free' and he to pursue his ideas unencumbered) he will do so, but with 'much regret' of course.
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Agree entirely, I've probably reminded the forum that Corbyn and McDonnell are Brexiters more than anyone else here I would think, people are probably pretty sick of it by now! Apart from those in denial of course, I guess they just turn a blind eye and move swiftly on.
 
Dave89 said:
Which of his policies or pledges do you specifically think are unaffordable?
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They're all affordable if you believe the Mexicans, sorry the rich and businesses, can or will provide scores of billions extra tax a year. I've no doubt they should and could pay some more, but I'd be more impressed if he said we all should, and not just always someone else.

For the record I am prepared to pay more tax for better public services, which the Liberals proposed last election.
 
Abizzz said:
Because if not then you're in the way of their democratically elected politicians.
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Exactly, that's why Jeremy doesn't really... not really, want to be shackled by the EU. Of course its OK whilst he's in opposition, but once his party gets elected, he wants to be able to do what he wants without any restrictions, and if that means gifting state aid to UK industries or companies ( 'investing in' would be the term used) then that's fine by him. The ECJ can go whistle he won't need them to mitigate on state aid, or pro-TU laws etc. he will ensure Acts of Parliament are passed, 'Home rule trumps EU rules'.

Nobody (well almost nobody) could fail to support much of what was mentioned as 'aims' in the last Labour manifesto, its how they are to be achieved which causes the problem. If Jeremy Corbyn manages to get a Labour majority in parliament in the next GE on the back of first provocation, and then assisting, a Tory Government to beggar itself in the EU, he will go down in history as one of the great political strategists of the last 100 years. In the future books will be written about him (as with Trumps success in the USA) and his achievements will become the subject of both political and economic questions in future GCSE/A level exams.
 
Maticmaker said:
Exactly, that's why Jeremy doesn't really... not really, want to be shackled by the EU. Of course its OK whilst he's in opposition, but once his party gets elected, he wants to be able to do what he wants without any restrictions, and if that means gifting state aid to UK industries or companies ( 'investing in' would be the term used) then that's fine by him. The ECJ can go whistle he won't need them to mitigate on state aid, or pro-TU laws etc. he will ensure Acts of Parliament are passed, 'Home rule trumps EU rules'.
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I don't disagree with that. He would have more freedom to do "revolutionary" things outside of the EU, but very possibly less financial space to pay for them. (Let's not start acting as if it's the EU rules that make state aid, huge deficits etc. unsustainable. The rules are there because at one point in history we all (rather our governments) agreed that it's a no brainer that they are unsustainable).

I was just disagreeing with the statement that it is German banks or the IMF that is keeping Greece or Italy from doing anything. They can/could do whatever they like if they find someone to pay for it.
Maticmaker said:
Nobody (well almost nobody) could fail to support much of what was mentioned as 'aims' in the last Labour manifesto, its how they are to be achieved which causes the problem. If Jeremy Corbyn manages to get a Labour majority in parliament in the next GE on the back of first provocation, and then assisting, a Tory Government to beggar itself in the EU, he will go down in history as one of the great political strategists of the last 100 years. In the future books will be written about him (as with Trumps success in the USA) and his achievements will become the subject of both political and economic questions in future GCSE/A level exams.
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Sounds a bit exaggerated to me but I agree with the sentiment.
 
Maticmaker said:
Even, if Jeremy gets someone else to pay, the EU rules will not let him build Utopia, at least in the way he envisages; the German Banks and the IMF will frown on his methods and they have stopped the Greeks and will shortly stop the Italians.
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The German banks didn't stop the Greeks doing anything, the Greeks had a choice to go Bankrupt or take the loans and swallow austerity. unfortunately the Greeks made the wrong choice to take the money and ruin society. Britain went cap in hand the IMF in 76 with much less national debt than we have today.
 
Stanley Road said:
The German banks didn't stop the Greeks doing anything, the Greeks had a choice to go Bankrupt or take the loans and swallow austerity. unfortunately the Greeks made the wrong choice to take the money and ruin society. Britain went cap in hand the IMF in 76 with much less national debt than we have today.
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Britain's IMF loan was repaid in full by 1979. If only all loans were so easy. :)
 
Abizzz said:
Let's not start acting as if it's the EU rules that make state aid, huge deficits etc. unsustainable.
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Of course it is, that's what the rules are there for, to prevent individual countries (as they would see it) rescuing their own industries simply to help keep their own people in employment, when for the good of the EU as a whole it is not sustainable because it draws funding from elsewhere, or prevents funds being re-allocated elsewhere.. i.e..'for the greater good' etc.
 
Maticmaker said:
Of course it is, that's what the rules are there for, to prevent individual countries (as they would see it) rescuing their own industries simply to help keep their own people in employment, when for the good of the EU as a whole it is not sustainable because it draws funding from elsewhere, or prevents funds being re-allocated elsewhere.. i.e..'for the greater good' etc.
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The main worry is that it keeps failing industries look like not failing industries until the failure is so large that even state aid won't help anymore (Leyland).
 
Abizzz said:
The main worry is that it keeps failing industries look like not failing industries until the failure is so large that even state aid won't help anymore (Leyland).
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And also another main worry, that national borrowing more becomes impossible because lenders are too worried about not being repaid. Which is back to Greece again, it's all very well blaming the EU for imposing austerity, but that needs to be taken in the context that they were the only people willing to lend to them at all, everyone else had stopped.
 
Abizzz said:
The main worry is that it keeps failing industries look like not failing industries until the failure is so large that even state aid won't help anymore (Leyland).
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Yes, of course, the perpetual and unlimited funding of something that is failing is unsustainable either at individual country level or at the EU level. However in the case of e.g. Steel, where the downturn in the Chinese economy had led for a time to China dumping large amounts of cheap steel on the worlds markets and thereby making many otherwise efficient steel making plants unviable, a short term plan to fund in our case UK steel plants through such difficulties is, or would be acceptable, at least within the community concerned, because they know that once something like steel-making stops, it virtually stops for ever.
Many countries in the EU do fund, or state aid, their own industries or company's but they do it under cover, its less honest, but it keeps the local politico's in favour with their electorate. Again other countries in the EU don't have the guile, or the inclination to 'cheat' and so they and their people suffer.

The truth is that as Jeremy tends to believe building a Utopia trumps everything else, it has been his lifetimes ambition and he knows better than anyone the EU 'powers that be' (never mind the rules) do not allow him to build "a new Jerusalem..." therefore he wants out desperately, because without Brexit, even if he were to win a GE, Jeremy knows his hands would be tied.
 
711 said:
They're all affordable if you believe the Mexicans, sorry the rich and businesses, can or will provide scores of billions extra tax a year. I've no doubt they should and could pay some more, but I'd be more impressed if he said we all should, and not just always someone else.

For the record I am prepared to pay more tax for better public services, which the Liberals proposed last election.
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Which of his policies or pledges do you specifically think are unaffordable?
 
The likely exit of high net worth individuals, whom Corbyn is, no doubt, targeting to pay for all his hair brained schemes will mean that the pool of people to fleece with swingeing tax hikes will reduce.

The result of which is they will have to tax middle income earners, who spend a lot, reducing their ability to spend.

It's the Socialist way, and it has been shown not to work where ever it has been tried.
 
Sassy Colin said:
The likely exit of high net worth individuals, whom Corbyn is, no doubt, targeting to pay for all his hair brained schemes will mean that the pool of people to fleece with swingeing tax hikes will reduce.

The result of which is they will have to tax middle income earners, who spend a lot, reducing their ability to spend.

It's the Socialist way, and it has been shown not to work where ever it has been tried.
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This is the thing with people like you, if the higher band was halved next year but then proposed to go up 10% the year after you'd still claim that as pushing out the rich. You have no concept of where it should be you just know you don't think it should go higher.

Feel free to show some evidence of this "likely exit"
 
Abizzz said:
The main worry is that it keeps failing industries look like not failing industries until the failure is so large that even state aid won't help anymore (Leyland).
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Unless its the agricultural industry because the EU has no problem propping them up decade after decade with subsidies, quotas and pretty much every other type of state aid they can muster in order to hide how massively uncompetitive they are.
 
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