Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Buster15]

He mostly did though. We went from 9.3% deficit in 2010 when he took over to 1.9 in 2017
He did it more by harsh austerity rather than growth, but he largely did it.

Source: ONS

And it was all worth it was it. Lack of police. NHS failing to achieve the the required metrics such as A&E waiting times. Schools having to beg parents for money etc.

 

[711]

He mostly did though. We went from 9.3% deficit in 2010 when he took over to 1.9 in 2017
He did it more by harsh austerity rather than growth, but he largely did it.

Source: ONS

Agreed. Leaving aside whether different policies would have worked better or not, the one he chose, austerity, worked in a raw sense. The thing to consider though is how unpopular it was, and it's here Remainers have missed the boat, they should have said again and again how seriously Brexit would reduce tax revenues from employers and employees and create the need for Austerity Two, austerity with knobs on. Unfortunately too many Remain supporters drifted off into childish bollocks about people being old and northerners and wanting the empire back, and the economic arguments have been hugely undersold.

As for May, does anyone think she actually wants an extension? I don't, I think she's just going through the motions so she can say she's tried, and another alternative to her deal is chalked off. She's still batting for her deal for me, right to the end.

 

[Silva]

 

[Cheesy]

The EU doesn't want 'no deal' as much as the pro EU MPs. Do you seriously think this isn't the case?

They don't want no deal but it won't be anywhere near as damaging to them as it would be to us. They have reiterated, time and time again, that they aren't abandoning their fundamental four freedoms in order to placate us. This may be unnecessarily stubborn and may emphasise how the EU needs to get with the times, but it's also a stone-cold reality we've had to deal with for several years. Claiming they're going to renege on that is literal fantasy. However much the EU don't want a no deal they know it's far more destructive for us, hence any bluffing is either just that, or an indication our immense stupidity.

 

[Buster15]

With the money we pay the EU, it would be available for other things. However, it is down to an established government to make those decisions.
Gove, johnson etc were just suggesting that the money could be used elsewhere. The NHS could certainly do with some of it.

Suggesting. If you had listened to the promises and all the lies, there was no suggesting.
You don't drive a big red bus round the country with 350 millions for the NHS and then say, oh that. It was only a suggestion.

 

[Cheesy]

‘The gammons’, this is precisely it. You all seem to think you’re all intellectually superior just because you have a different political opinion. It’s actually embarrassing.

Does any Brexiteer in this thread actually make any arguments which relate to Brexit or do they just continually get pissy whenever anyone points out the ridiculousness of their logic and the fact that every argument they've made thus far has been discredited time and time again?

 

[oates]

Does any Brexiteer in this thread actually make any arguments which relate to Brexit or do they just continually get pissy whenever anyone points out the ridiculousness of their logic and the fact that every argument they've made thus far has been discredited time and time again?

None that haven't been de-bunked over a thousand pages ago.

 

[Minimalist]

‘The gammons’, this is precisely it. You all seem to think you’re all intellectually superior just because you have a different political opinion. It’s actually embarrassing.

We don't think it mate.

People like yourself read like children. That's the real embarrassment.

 

[MoskvaRed]

Agreed. Leaving aside whether different policies would have worked better or not, the one he chose, austerity, worked in a raw sense. The thing to consider though is how unpopular it was, and it's here Remainers have missed the boat, they should have said again and again how seriously Brexit would reduce tax revenues from employers and employees and create the need for Austerity Two, austerity with knobs on. Unfortunately too many Remain supporters drifted off into childish bollocks about people being old and northerners and wanting the empire back, and the economic arguments have been hugely undersold.

As for May, does anyone think she actually wants an extension? I don't, I think she's just going through the motions so she can say she's tried, and another alternative to her deal is chalked off. She's still batting for her deal for me, right to the end.

Economic arguments were the main (the only?) point of the Remain campaign and they fell on deaf ears. Partly because Brexit became a matter of cultural identity and partly because many Leavers thought they were economically fireproof (comfortablly off OAPs) or already so downtrodden that the risk of a further hit was worth taking (“your GDP, not mine” as that leave voter in some northern post-industrial town put it).

 

[DavidDeSchmikes]

 

[711]

Economic arguments were the main (the only?) point of the Remain campaign and they fell on deaf ears. Partly because Brexit became a matter of cultural identity and partly because many Leavers thought they were economically fireproof (comfortablly off OAPs) or already so downtrodden that the risk of a further hit was worth taking (“your GDP, not mine” as that leave voter in some northern post-industrial town put it).

I disagree, I don't think the economic arguments were pushed anywhere near enough before the referendum, but particularly afterwards many Remainers lost the plot and became childish instead of pushing them forward. It might be you personally took the economic side as read, but Leavers didn't, that was the problem. The 'project fear' jibe was left largely unanswered.

 

[sun_tzu]

I guess it's wait to see the EU's terms then presumably another vote on Mays deal on Thursday...

It seems unlikely a joint proposal will be ready and equally I think she will want to be seen to try to not simply accept the EU's terms

When that fails I guess she quits on Friday either triggering no deal or accepting the EU's terms

If it's a 9 month or 1 year flexistension then presumably a conservative leadership contest finishing in the summer... Some tax cuts then an election around September / October? And then 10 weeks or whatever is left to start this whole cliff edge / rextend again?

 

[MadMike]

And it was all worth it was it. Lack of police. NHS failing to achieve the the required metrics such as A&E waiting times. Schools having to beg parents for money etc.

He never promised to do it the good way. He just promised to do it. There are risks in both approaches; spending your way to growth or cutting your way to deficit reduction. The first can drive you into spiralling debt if the growth is not achieved and the later can send you deep into recession if it's not done carefully. His approach worked based on what he aimed to achieve.

Now whether it was worth it or not, that's a difficult question to answer. Personally, I would have liked higher taxation rather than a smaller state budget. I would have been happy to pay more tax personally. But I can't profess to know how that would have ended. I'm very uncomfortable with how it was handled, because the squeeze on the poor through the squeeze on social services has been relentless. But I also grew up in Greece and I've seen what runaway state finances can lead to. One more thing I'll say on this is that the people voted Tories. So they knew which approach they were going for.

It came with a huge social cost, but it's done. The question is how we recover from it now and rebuild.

 

[711]

I guess it's wait to see the EU's terms then presumably another vote on Mays deal on Thursday... When that fails I guess she quits on Friday either triggering no deal or accepting the EU's terms

If it's a 9 month or 1 year flexistension then presumably a conservative leadership contest finishing in the summer... Some tax cuts then an election around September / October? And then 10 weeks or whatever is left to start this whole cliff edge / rextend again?

If there were a general election I can see both Labour and Conservatives fighting on a promise to hold another referendum. I think both parties are too split to come up with anything else for their manifesto. It would be so much better to agree to have one now of course, but May wants to go down in history with her deal and Corbyn doesn't want a vote in case Remain win.

 

[Tarrou]

If its a year extension then we should give the brexiters a few months to agree what their plan is, and then vote between that plan and stay

A general election won't clear this mess up

 

[sun_tzu]

If there were a general election I can see both Labour and Conservatives fighting on a promise to hold another referendum. I think both parties are too split to come up with anything else for their manifesto. It would be so much better to agree to have one now of course, but May wants to go down in history with her deal and Corbyn doesn't want a vote in case Remain win.

I have no idea how the parties will hold together even if they promice a referendum... And even less idea how they would form alliances in the event of a hung parliament

 

[Silva]

If its a year extension then we should give the brexiters a few months to agree what their plan is, and then vote between that plan and stay

that's already happened and the answer is a definitive "uhm"

 

[Hammerfell]

Nuke Sunderland imo.

The before and after pictures would look identical.

 

[sun_tzu]

that's already happened and the answer is a definitive "uhm"

I think it's actually gerronwivit... WTO hard deal and don't enforce the Irish border

In a year I suspect it will be much the same... With the options of selling the NHS to trump and nuking Macron thrown into the mix

 

[Cheesy]

The before and after pictures would look identical.

And their football fans won't mind a hard Brexit since they're used to incredible dramatic declines.

 

[Josep Dowling]

We don't think it mate.

People like yourself read like children. That's the real embarrassment.

Ok so since yesterday when I posted, responses to me have inferred as a ‘Brexiteer’ or outright as a:

Gammon
Stupid
Fecking snowflake
Child

You can respond to people without the unnecessary quip. At no point have I called someone a remainer, a fecking loony lefties, or go drink your café frothy macchiato you vegan cnut. It’s just stereotyping a big proportion of our society on a question of remain or leave the EU. That I think is one of the saddest parts of this whole vote.

Does any Brexiteer in this thread actually make any arguments which relate to Brexit or do they just continually get pissy whenever anyone points out the ridiculousness of their logic and the fact that every argument they've made thus far has been discredited time and time again?

How has every argument been discredited, I haven’t even had chance to debate anything yet except the Irish border with one poster. And I honestly don’t have an answer to that. Did I vote contemplating what would with the Irish border? No, that is a minor detail on why I voted leave. I highly doubt it was major factor for you voting to remain either. It’s just another barrier being put up by the EU to delay the UK leaving.

You have a political opinion on the outcome of Brexit. This is my biggest point to you, and many on here, WHAT YOU STATE IS NOT FACT. Nothing has happened yet, there is a negotiation going on to leave yet you are acting like it’s a total disaster. There is no evidence leaving the EU will be a disaster for this country unless we leave and see what happens.

Why is the EU trying so hard to keep us in the EU if we are a nothing country that can’t cope on our own? Surely if they truly believed that they would happily take 40 billion from us, then within 5 years we will be asking to rejoin the EU. Surely a win / win for them? They know we contribute far more than we get out and they need our money. What’s going to happen when the inevitable bail out is required for yet another country? There is absolutely no way Greece can repay their debt in the future. The UK will need to contribute more money to support this.

Why should the UK be part of a union that is funding projects throughout Europe when our own infrastructure is in desperate need of improvement. I’m sure you will say the EU gives us money for projects but why does the EU have a say where money is spent in this country. More bureaucracy, more political barriers, just more waste of money. Where there is politics, there is more corruption, and I don’t believe having an extra level of politicians on a board we can’t vote for, on ridiculous salaries, benefits and pensions should be creating policies that can affect the UK. And the people of this country have no say in it. If we are unhappy with government we can change our vote in the next general election, we can’t do that with the EU.

 

[Silva]

responses to me have inferred as a ‘Brexiteer’ or outright as a:

Gammon
Stupid
Fecking snowflake
Child

where's the lie?

Why is the EU trying so hard to keep us in the EU if we are a nothing country that can’t cope on our own?

they're not, they're ready for a no deal exit

Why should the UK be part of a union that is funding projects throughout Europe when our own infrastructure is in desperate need of improvement.

we can and do

More bureaucracy, more political barriers, just more waste of money.

the EU is about the same size the Birmingham city council

If we are unhappy with government we can change our vote in the next general election, we can’t do that with the EU.

oh totally, that's why we get to vote in every single constituency as opposed to the EUs archaic proportional representation voting system, we're all so fecking represented in westminster, especially those of us who live in extremely safe seats where our vote is worth almost as much as the paper its written on

 

[afrocentricity]

...or go drink your café frothy macchiato you vegan cnut.

Fecking hell

 

[horsechoker]

Fecking hell

A macchiato isn't vegan also

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Ok so since yesterday when I posted, responses to me have inferred as a ‘Brexiteer’ or outright as a:

Gammon
Stupid
Fecking snowflake
Child

You can respond to people without the unnecessary quip. At no point have I called someone a remainer, a fecking loony lefties, or go drink your café frothy macchiato you vegan cnut. It’s just stereotyping a big proportion of our society on a question of remain or leave the EU. That I think is one of the saddest parts of this whole vote.



How has every argument been discredited, I haven’t even had chance to debate anything yet except the Irish border with one poster. And I honestly don’t have an answer to that. Did I vote contemplating what would with the Irish border? No, that is a minor detail on why I voted leave. I highly doubt it was major factor for you voting to remain either. It’s just another barrier being put up by the EU to delay the UK leaving.

You have a political opinion on the outcome of Brexit. This is my biggest point to you, and many on here, WHAT YOU STATE IS NOT FACT. Nothing has happened yet, there is a negotiation going on to leave yet you are acting like it’s a total disaster. There is no evidence leaving the EU will be a disaster for this country unless we leave and see what happens.

Why is the EU trying so hard to keep us in the EU if we are a nothing country that can’t cope on our own? Surely if they truly believed that they would happily take 40 billion from us, then within 5 years we will be asking to rejoin the EU. Surely a win / win for them? They know we contribute far more than we get out and they need our money. What’s going to happen when the inevitable bail out is required for yet another country? There is absolutely no way Greece can repay their debt in the future. The UK will need to contribute more money to support this.

Why should the UK be part of a union that is funding projects throughout Europe when our own infrastructure is in desperate need of improvement. I’m sure you will say the EU gives us money for projects but why does the EU have a say where money is spent in this country. More bureaucracy, more political barriers, just more waste of money. Where there is politics, there is more corruption, and I don’t believe having an extra level of politicians on a board we can’t vote for, on ridiculous salaries, benefits and pensions should be creating policies that can affect the UK. And the people of this country have no say in it. If we are unhappy with government we can change our vote in the next general election, we can’t do that with the EU.

Every single argument you have just put forward has been discredited a hundred times on this thread. As for stereotyping I am not young, I'm not a leftie, I don't have a political goal other than protecting the continent from fools , I've never had a macchiato in my life, frothy or not, nor a vegan and didn't vote remain and I don't think I'm loony.

You've just made an enormous error, that's all, dear chap.

 

[Tarrou]

I ate at a vegan restaurant earlier, it was lovely

 

[sullydnl]

Vegan restaurants can be excellent, even if you're not a vegan. If we take anything from this thread, let it be that.

 

[Wibble]

If you listen to what Cameron says at 2:34, he explains that the referendum would be to stay in the EU or come out altogether.
It's very clear what the referendum was about, and the government is now overruling the democratic vote. Doesn't this trouble any of you?

Nobody, remainers included, knew exactly what they were voting for or how difficult and damaging it would be to leave.

Now that there is gridlock another referendum with exact specific options may be the only way to break the impasse.

 

[Dave89]

I know it's a bit gauche, but I'm happy to state I'm intellectually superior to someone who gets their political views from large writing on the side of a bus.

 

[Cheesy]

How has every argument been discredited, I haven’t even had chance to debate anything yet except the Irish border with one poster. And I honestly don’t have an answer to that. Did I vote contemplating what would with the Irish border? No, that is a minor detail on why I voted leave. I highly doubt it was major factor for you voting to remain either. It’s just another barrier being put up by the EU to delay the UK leaving.

This is...exactly the problem. You've voted on this issue without taking into consideration the most significant issue pertaining to Brexit. A failure to resolve said issue could result in an eruption of conflict. That eruption of conflict would be the UK's responsibility because it would involve us violating the very treaty we established to secure the safety and security of citizens who are, legally, within our own country. Do you not understand how serious and important that is politically, and why anyone who tries to dismiss it is going to find their other arguments discredited? If you don't have an answer to that then you fundamentally either don't understand what's making Brexit problematic, or you just conveniently don't want to understand.

The EU aren't putting it up as a barrier to prevent us from leaving. Ireland are, legally, part of the EU, and so have freedom of movement with other EU nations. By creating the GFA, we legally to allow freedom of movement between NI and ROI, which by extension meant to us committing (again) to freedom of movement with an EU nation. We cannot revoke FOI with one EU nation without doing it with all of them. Because you can't pick and choose the EU's four fundamental freedoms. This was known before the vote. It's been known since. The EU keep telling us it's the case. Why in the absolute feck would they make an exception for us when we're the ones reneging on a relationship we committed to? We have no bargaining power here and there is no reason for them to give us what we want at their own expense. To suggest otherwise goes into the realm of non-applicable fantasy politics.

 

[redshaw]

Funny at one time back in 2016/7 some European politicians thought the UK was pretending to be unprepared, that the UK politicians had it all planned out and the calamity was an act.

How has every argument been discredited, I haven’t even had chance to debate anything yet except the Irish border with one poster. And I honestly don’t have an answer to that. Did I vote contemplating what would with the Irish border? No, that is a minor detail on why I voted leave. I highly doubt it was major factor for you voting to remain either. It’s just another barrier being put up by the EU to delay the UK leaving.

You have a political opinion on the outcome of Brexit. This is my biggest point to you, and many on here, WHAT YOU STATE IS NOT FACT. Nothing has happened yet, there is a negotiation going on to leave yet you are acting like it’s a total disaster. There is no evidence leaving the EU will be a disaster for this country unless we leave and see what happens.

Why is the EU trying so hard to keep us in the EU if we are a nothing country that can’t cope on our own? Surely if they truly believed that they would happily take 40 billion from us, then within 5 years we will be asking to rejoin the EU. Surely a win / win for them? They know we contribute far more than we get out and they need our money. What’s going to happen when the inevitable bail out is required for yet another country? There is absolutely no way Greece can repay their debt in the future. The UK will need to contribute more money to support this.

Why should the UK be part of a union that is funding projects throughout Europe when our own infrastructure is in desperate need of improvement. I’m sure you will say the EU gives us money for projects but why does the EU have a say where money is spent in this country. More bureaucracy, more political barriers, just more waste of money. Where there is politics, there is more corruption, and I don’t believe having an extra level of politicians on a board we can’t vote for, on ridiculous salaries, benefits and pensions should be creating policies that can affect the UK. And the people of this country have no say in it. If we are unhappy with government we can change our vote in the next general election, we can’t do that with the EU.

I don't think many in England voted with the Irish border in mind, that is true. It's still serious baggage the UK has to deal with if it wants out of the EU. No-one wants to be officially responsible for putting up a hard border and the return of the troubles. UK needs to sort out handing over NI somehow before leaving as the EU are not going to turn a blind eye. It's England's mess. A single country leaving is a lot easier than four, NI, Wales, Scotland and England. Scotland face a tough choice in having a hard border and go with the EU or stick with England if the UK leaves as a whole.

Funding the EU is supposed to help the European area that should in turn make this area strong and help the UK. The future looks like larger areas competing, the days of UK/Europe and US only are gone. UK pays about 10 billion a year, the NHS costs about 120 billion for one year. It's not much money for the benefits of trade. UK is a very important portal for non EU countries to access the EU.

 

[Stanley Road]

That's what i was going to say.

You two are the French chuckle brothers arent you?

 

[Paul the Wolf]

You two are the French chuckle brothers arent you?

To me, to you

 

[Paul the Wolf]

The total administration costs (bureaucracy/ salary costs etc for the Brexiters) for the EU for the 2019 budget are about €10bn for 512 million people - less than €20 per person per year.
For that price each person could afford 2 Daily Mails per month.
Which one would you choose?

 

[Wibble]

Did I vote contemplating what would with the Irish border? No, that is a minor detail on why I voted leave. I highly doubt it was major factor for you voting to remain either. It’s just another barrier being put up by the EU to delay the UK leaving.

I'm sure the families of the thousands murdered during the troubles will be dismayed, yet not totally surprised, that you/many from the mainland (@Ramshock ) think the possibility of a return to sectarian violence is not real and just a fake flag operation by the EU.

TBH this sort of attitude sickens me.

 

[Penna]

To me, to you

Non, à moi, à toi.

 

[Penna]

Anyway, the hard Brexiteers' transparent plan seems to have failed. Voting down Mrs May's agreement to get a no-deal Brexit hasn't worked, we now have legislation against leaving with no deal. The EU have had enough of short extensions, so it's likely to be December or even March next year.

If I was the PM now, I'd sack a few Cabinet members and replace them with people who have a more balanced view. They don't have to be yes-men/women, just not loonies.

 

[Buster15]

He never promised to do it the good way. He just promised to do it. There are risks in both approaches; spending your way to growth or cutting your way to deficit reduction. The first can drive you into spiralling debt if the growth is not achieved and the later can send you deep into recession if it's not done carefully. His approach worked based on what he aimed to achieve.

Now whether it was worth it or not, that's a difficult question to answer. Personally, I would have liked higher taxation rather than a smaller state budget. I would have been happy to pay more tax personally. But I can't profess to know how that would have ended. I'm very uncomfortable with how it was handled, because the squeeze on the poor through the squeeze on social services has been relentless. But I also grew up in Greece and I've seen what runaway state finances can lead to. One more thing I'll say on this is that the people voted Tories. So they knew which approach they were going for.

It came with a huge social cost, but it's done. The question is how we recover from it now and rebuild.

All perfectly understandable.
I very much agree with your point about the affect on the more vulnerable amongst us. They had no hand in the global financial crisis and yet they had to ended awful cuts in services.
He ho. That is the Tories way.

 

[The Firestarter]

How is a legislation against no deal supposed to work. Has the legal default changed ?

 

[NinjaFletch]

Ok so since yesterday when I posted, responses to me have inferred as a ‘Brexiteer’ or outright as a:

Gammon
Stupid
Fecking snowflake
Child

You can respond to people without the unnecessary quip. At no point have I called someone a remainer, a fecking loony lefties, or go drink your café frothy macchiato you vegan cnut. It’s just stereotyping a big proportion of our society on a question of remain or leave the EU. That I think is one of the saddest parts of this whole vote.



How has every argument been discredited, I haven’t even had chance to debate anything yet except the Irish border with one poster. And I honestly don’t have an answer to that. Did I vote contemplating what would with the Irish border? No, that is a minor detail on why I voted leave. I highly doubt it was major factor for you voting to remain either. It’s just another barrier being put up by the EU to delay the UK leaving.

You have a political opinion on the outcome of Brexit. This is my biggest point to you, and many on here, WHAT YOU STATE IS NOT FACT. Nothing has happened yet, there is a negotiation going on to leave yet you are acting like it’s a total disaster. There is no evidence leaving the EU will be a disaster for this country unless we leave and see what happens.

Why is the EU trying so hard to keep us in the EU if we are a nothing country that can’t cope on our own? Surely if they truly believed that they would happily take 40 billion from us, then within 5 years we will be asking to rejoin the EU. Surely a win / win for them? They know we contribute far more than we get out and they need our money. What’s going to happen when the inevitable bail out is required for yet another country? There is absolutely no way Greece can repay their debt in the future. The UK will need to contribute more money to support this.

Why should the UK be part of a union that is funding projects throughout Europe when our own infrastructure is in desperate need of improvement. I’m sure you will say the EU gives us money for projects but why does the EU have a say where money is spent in this country. More bureaucracy, more political barriers, just more waste of money. Where there is politics, there is more corruption, and I don’t believe having an extra level of politicians on a board we can’t vote for, on ridiculous salaries, benefits and pensions should be creating policies that can affect the UK. And the people of this country have no say in it. If we are unhappy with government we can change our vote in the next general election, we can’t do that with the EU.

And there we go. I thought you'd stopped replying because you didn't have an answer, but it's nice to have it confirmed.

It would also have been nice if you'd done absolutely basic research on how the EU actually functions as well. Your being too lazy to vote in MEP elections does not an undemocratic institution make.