Argentina players singing racist chant targeting French players after Copa America final

JPRouve said:
As a joke it could absolutely work but the other side as to be on the joke which is rarely the case in that kind of context. You can have messed up jokes with actual friends but those aren't supposed to be done when said friend isn't around and isn't responding.

Now I wonder if I shouldn't make up a song about Argentines being raging racists and colonials, as a joke.
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You know, it is possible that would be the one way they might understand...while joking of course.

I dont think they would get the joke though.
 
duffer said:
He's apologised via instagram to the public and to the players on the phone. You'd imagine he'll also have a rather awkward face to face when he's back in the country.
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The only real apology will be Fofana recording him will repeatedly saying; "Sing the song, Enzo. Come on, sing the song. Give us a tune, Enzo. Come on, you sang it on the bus with your mates. You're among friends here, sing the song."
 
duffer said:
I don't want to tar anyone with anything. In fact, the video I saw shows Martinez facetiming someone.

If you think it was just Enzo then fair enough. It sounded like a lot of people signing to me.
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It was. And the Government and other figures in Argentina are proving this is an embedded issue. The fact that Enzo turned his IG live on to record them singing again, then quickly turned it off when he realized what they were singing implies he didn’t choose the song that particular time. But maybe he has in the past.

People seem desperate to protect their players though. I made that joke about fans asking for voice IDs from the FBI before they believed it. The scene where Licha was FaceTiming wasn’t the offensive song from what I understand now.

Point is it’s copium. If your team has players that were on that bus they are gonna have questions to answer to their teammates, whether they are mentioned on a message board or not. And if the answer to the teammates is “I promise, the other guys were Singing but I refused”? Heck, that may go over worse, because the BS meter will be high.

There will be lots of conversations in lots of locker rooms. And given what we’ve seen from the leaders in Argentina that is probably needed.
 
Mbappé Mbappé
He's a paper French
But we don't mean it that way
It's just it's just
He can't trace his tree
To millennials ago wee
To Proto Indo Europeans settlers
Or Hunter Gatherers
But we don't mean it that way
It's a comment on colonisation dynamics hey
It's not complicated
Nothing to do with complexion
Also we don't like who he shags

Doesn't roll off the tongue.
 
MalcolmTucker said:
PIE who migrated West mixed with other ancient populations that were in Europe.

PIE who migrated East mixed with other ancient populations that were in Asia.

Hence, Europeans with PIE ancestry are distinct from Asians with PIE ancestry.
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Sure. But if you out it that way: people moved into Europe before and after as well. Where would you put the cut-off for the 'actual Europeans'?

For instance, take these two scenarios:

(1) An 'actual European' moved to North America 400 years ago. After only procreating with other descendants of 'actual Europeans', their descendant moved to Europe 10 years ago. Is this person an 'actual European'?

(2) An 'actual African' moved from Ghana to Europe 400 years ago. After only procreating with 'actual Africans', their descendant now continues to live in Europe. Is this person an 'actual European'?
 
JPRouve said:
Exactly. Ethnicity isn't just genetics, it's also social norms and in general culture, in fact it has more to do with the latters. So there isn't actually any sense to refer to 4000 years old groups of people when they have almost nothing in common with the people you are linking them with, they don't have the same language, morals, faith and overall values.
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That's it, it is 100% a social construct. Genetics or other aspects of ancestry only tangentially feature in it, when it's convenient. Otherwise it's all about who the groups themselves and their neighbours/competitors consider to be in or out, which is usually done through a vaguely defined mishmash of criteria that are rarely defined explicitly. Which is why any attempt to do so always fails.

(Sam with race, for that matter, which is a social construct that in terms of biology famously only goes 'skin deep'.)
 
Bluelion7 said:
That, I think is starting to become the big/interesting issue here. The Vice President of the country, prominent players and figures… they seem to be offended that other people are offended. It is an odd stance and strategy to take unless the “cultural bubble” you refer to (which is an excellent way to put it) makes them genuinely don’t get it.
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They don't get it. They also feel like they are superior to every other country in Latinamerica. They are as racists and xenophobes as anyone can be, but they think that's normal and everyone else is a woke.
 
Raoul said:
Is there anyone prominent from Argentina who has actually criticized Fernandez ? It feels like a cultural bubble where everyone is in general agreement that he did nothing wrong.
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The president has probably vigorously defended them. Milei is a horrible human being with some really awful political and economic views.
 
JPRouve said:
For your first question if we go back 4000 years, no.

For the second one, yes.

And I didn't tell you that ethnic groups can't exist in 2024, I'm telling you that they don't exist in Europe or to be more careful they are not as clear cut or relevant than you are suggesting. And the reason is because in Europe two things have happened it's a massive cultural melting pot and the deliberate erasing of ethnic and local cultures in favor of nationalism around the time of creation of nation-states in Europe which is roughly 200 to 300 years old.
And as an example of how big of a melting pot it is the main faith and legal foundation to modern day Europe comes from the Middle-East and modern Turkey.
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You must realise that claiming European ethnicities don't exist is a fringe and extreme opinion? Science, mainstream media, governments, and every normal person acknowledge that Europeans and European ethnic groups exist.

Moreover, your reasons are laughable. Nation states are not exclusive to Europe (you should look up the etymology of nation) and the majority of societies have adopted foreign religions and governmental systems (also, the legal foundation comes from the Greeks, who are Europeans). Africa is Abrahamic and have adopted foreign models of governance (The Westminster system, Sharia Law, Socialism, etc) - are there no African ethnic groups?

If a Japanese person asserted they are Japanese, would you pipe up and deny him his ethnic identity because they use British bicameralism in their legislative system?

Your standard for denying European ethnic groups applies to basically every group outside of isolated tribes like the Sentinelese.
 
Nonameboy said:
I've been to Argentina multiple times and I never saw a black person there which is a bit weird specially when you look at other south American countries where a big part of their population is of African descent. Does anyone know the reason for this? Why is Argentina the exception in this regard compared to their South American neighbour's?
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There were almost no natural black people in Chile until the last 10 years immigrants from Haiti, Colombia, Venezuela, etc.

But I really don't know why. I think here in Chile the Spaniards mainly used the natives as servants/slaves. And we were the second country in the world to abolish slavery in 1823, after Denmark.
 
MalcolmTucker said:
You must realise that claiming European ethnicities don't exist is a fringe and extreme opinion? Science, mainstream media, governments, and every normal person acknowledge that Europeans and European ethnic groups exist.

Moreover, your reasons are laughable. Nation states are not exclusive to Europe (you should look up the etymology of nation) and the majority of societies have adopted foreign religions and governmental systems (also, the legal foundation comes from the Greeks, who are Europeans). Africa is Abrahamic and have adopted foreign models of governance (The Westminster system, Sharia Law, Socialism, etc) - are there no African ethnic groups?

If a Japanese person asserted they are Japanese, would you pipe up and deny him his ethnic identity because they use British bicameralism in their legislative system?

Your standard for denying European ethnic groups applies to basically every group outside of isolated tribes like the Sentinelese.
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I can't speak for @JPRouve, but I would argue that ethnic groups do exist, but that they are 'just' another social group, like many others, on levels ranging from states to local sports clubs. Along the lines of what I said here:
Cheimoon said:
That's it, it is 100% a social construct. Genetics or other aspects of ancestry only tangentially feature in it, when it's convenient. Otherwise it's all about who the groups themselves and their neighbours/competitors consider to be in or out, which is usually done through a vaguely defined mishmash of criteria that are rarely defined explicitly. Which is why any attempt to do so always fails.

(Sam with race, for that matter, which is a social construct that in terms of biology famously only goes 'skin deep'.)
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MalcolmTucker said:
You must realise that claiming European ethnicities don't exist is a fringe and extreme opinion? Science, mainstream media, governments, and every normal person acknowledge that Europeans and European ethnic groups exist.

Moreover, your reasons are laughable. Nation states are not exclusive to Europe (you should look up the etymology of nation) and the majority of societies have adopted foreign religions and governmental systems (also, the legal foundation comes from the Greeks, who are Europeans). Africa is Abrahamic and have adopted foreign models of governance (The Westminster system, Sharia Law, Socialism, etc) - are there no African ethnic groups?

If a Japanese person asserted they are Japanese, would you pipe up and deny him his ethnic identity because they use British bicameralism in their legislative system?

Your standard for denying European ethnic groups applies to basically every group outside of isolated tribes like the Sentinelese.
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Read the first sentence of the post you quoted. Also you should know that Japanese isn't an ethnicity, it's a nationality, the current ethnics groups of Japan are the likes of Yamato, Ainu and others. Also Japan is one of these countries that has managed to maintain a certain level of homogeneity, so ethnicities have a lot more relevance there than they have in other places. So no I won't deny anything to a japanese.
 
MalcolmTucker said:
You must realise that claiming European ethnicities don't exist is a fringe and extreme opinion? Science, mainstream media, governments, and every normal person acknowledge that Europeans and European ethnic groups exist.

Moreover, your reasons are laughable. Nation states are not exclusive to Europe (you should look up the etymology of nation) and the majority of societies have adopted foreign religions and governmental systems (also, the legal foundation comes from the Greeks, who are Europeans). Africa is Abrahamic and have adopted foreign models of governance (The Westminster system, Sharia Law, Socialism, etc) - are there no African ethnic groups?

If a Japanese person asserted they are Japanese, would you pipe up and deny him his ethnic identity because they use British bicameralism in their legislative system?

Your standard for denying European ethnic groups applies to basically every group outside of isolated tribes like the Sentinelese.
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Ethnicity for me, melting pot for thee.
 
roonster09 said:
I checked the video posted by Fofana couple of times, couldn't figure out who all were singing as the video was probably recorded using Nokia 6600.

Looks like there are 5-7 players who did at least seen in the video. Enzo, the 2 players sitting next to Enzo and the 3 players who were jumping around chanting something.

Can't see anyone else.

I hope whoever is involved gets banned for few games and don't know how these players will even share the dressing room with French players now. Bunch of idiots.
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The video quality is primarily due to him using mobile data/poor wifi when he was streaming rather than the quality of the phone. Not an expert opinion.
 
Raoul said:
Yeah its a tricky situation for CFC at this point given that the President and VP of Argentina all the way down don't feel that anything wrong happened. The club will likely need to get out of ahead of this story with more releases and possibly a mea culpa presser with Enzo. Otherwise, the issue will continue to fester well into the season.
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The BEST thing they could do in this situation is have an educating sit down with Enzo and have him come out and denounce the large scale efforts to defend him and the rest of the Argentina players.

Something like: “I wish I could do more than just apologize, but what I definitely DON’T want is people coming out to defend what I did. If it comes from a place of concern for me, I appreciate it, but I deserve every bit of anger and disappointment coming my way right now. Also, my teammates who have received hate directed at them just for pointing out my actions… I don’t know if they can ever forgive me… but that cannot be defended either.”
 
WeePat said:

Argentina star blasts Chelsea players for unfollowing Enzo Fernandez:​


What I can say in defence of Enzo is that, obviously, the song is there because it was there, because people sing it.’
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Well…. That kills off the idea that it was Enzo and 3 or 4 unknown kit people … De Paul is essentially just admitting they all sing it, heck, the coaching staff probably sings it.
 
Argentina is really doubling down on this one which means this is gonna go on for a while
 
I appreciate the impressive patience staff members show in this thread, but we shouldn't let someone derail the thread into what is or is not a pure European. They have only popped up to debate this and cling to it without any care about the actual issue at hand or any interest in sourcing their strangely specific talking points.
 
Changeisgood said:
I think he means on a national level. On a separate note, I am not sure fines do a whole lot, especially in the amount often quoted.
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Yes, thank you, I was referring to a national level more than just football.
 
WeePat said:
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"You have to be careful with what you say or do, especially in Europe where they are much more sensitive than here. The reality is that we are not a racist country; we are not used to talking about racism so much.

"Yes, it's a very important topic, obviously. Enzo has already apologized and explained what happened. I don't think there's much more to say. We know Enzo, we know he would never do it with bad intentions, he's not that guy, he's not racist.

"It's just a chant that got stuck and is more of a mocking tone than anything else. But, as I said, you have to be very careful.

"I think the most important thing is that Enzo came out, gave the corresponding apologies, and that, in the end, should be valued."
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Maybe if you talked about racism more, you'd understand why "It's just a chant that got stuck" is a sorry defense.

Liverpool players defending racism is nothing new, though. It's their football heritage.

Also, quite clear from the lack of distancing that the whole team was on it. Hope Lisandro doesn't come out and spout the same bullshit.
 
Mocking people over the colour of their skin and their ethnic roots isn't racist now? Thanks Argentina!
 
WeePat said:
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See… this tweet says to me: “I was singing, we like to sing the song it’s a light joke and it’s become tradition, but Enzo needs to be smarter and not turn on the cameras because “Europeans” are super sensitive and he should know better”.

That’s essentially what Mac Allister, De Paul and the others were saying ….and it just shows they don’t get it.
roseguy64 said:
Kante isn't on Chelsea. There are a lot of French players at Chelsea though.
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I wrote on this when the story first came out though that Kante developed a relationship with Enzo to help him mentally when he was having issues arriving mid season on such a high money move to the PL. Kante is such a great person. I was thinking about how disappointed Kante would have been seeing all this when I first saw the story.
 
Bluelion7 said:
See… this tweet says to me: “I was singing, we like to sing the song it’s a light joke and it’s become tradition, but Enzo needs to be smarter and not turn on the cameras because “Europeans” are super sensitive and he should know better”.

That’s essentially what Mac Allister, De Paul and the others were saying ….and it just shows they don’t get it.
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They get it, they just don't care. Now you can guess on why they don't.
 
Nonameboy said:
I've been to Argentina multiple times and I never saw a black person there which is a bit weird specially when you look at other south American countries where a big part of their population is of African descent. Does anyone know the reason for this? Why is Argentina the exception in this regard compared to their South American neighbour's?
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afro-Argentines
 
2mufc0 said:
Are you guys white?

I'm not and don't have an issue with he word in the context I have used it in.
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I don’t see how that is relevant? Plenty of people do find that term offensive and outdated, so it was just a heads up in case you weren’t aware.
 
Toblerone92 said:
I don’t see how that is relevant? Plenty of people do find that term offensive and outdated, so it was just a heads up in case you weren’t aware.
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A lot of people don't either, including me as a coloured person. It seems to be offensive in America as another poster has pointed out, so I respect that and wouldn't use it around Americans. Otherwise where I'm from it's normal.
 
Just to chime in a bit, historically speaking one reason for the relative* stability of modern nation states in Europe overall has been its general adherence to the predominant ethnic make up of the said nations , especially in western Europe.

Even in the east the most stable countries are usually the more homogenous ones and only Singapore comes to my mind to have escaped such a trend , japan and Korea for example are incredibly homogenous by any standards and China has basically forced most of it's population to be so through a millennia of conquest and assimilation (98 percent han chinese though the number belies a history of forceful integration).

* relative as there still was tumultuous periods notably more so in the east where an amalgamation like yugoslavia finally erupted in a microcasam of chaos, and the soviet union collapsed mostly based on ethnic divides with the major exception being Russia itself which comes with obvious caveats.

One could point out to there still being minor variations in ethnic make up of western European nations before the era of mass migrations but that would be somewhat dishonest as they still were irrelevant compared to what one will see in many African or middle Eastern countries.

Now obviously cultural and economical divides make a large contributing factor towards all the discord, probably more so than the ethnic divisions but to deny it altogether is counter productive.

Also one should not go as far to call Europe a melting pot as it's only been so recently in the grand scheme of things for the large influx of immigration to take place and as we've seen there seems to have been a major anti immigration reaction in certain demographic groups as of late.

The new world nations probably come closest to the definition as they can mostly point to a common national identity without it being exclusively tied to a certain demographic.
 
Gandalf Greyhame said:
Maybe if you talked about racism more, you'd understand why "It's just a chant that got stuck" is a sorry defense.

Liverpool players defending racism is nothing new, though. It's their football heritage.

Also, quite clear from the lack of distancing that the whole team was on it. Hope Lisandro doesn't come out and spout the same bullshit.
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That's exactly the problem. Argentina and argentinians need to be educated about this, and these mistakes will be erradicated. And I say mistakes, that should be punished harshly, because I don't think Enzo is a racist person at all, but someone who is ignorant in the matter and thought that something could be funny, and it shouldn't be. Even if it's internal, because they wouldn't sing it in public, they shouldn't joke with this. They need to understand it's no joke.

And not only Enzo thought that, but most people on that bus, and any normal group of argentinians in a moment when you're euphoric. As a society, it's a huge problem people got here. They think they can joke with anything, they think there are no limits. Things were way worse in the past. In their normal life, people are not racist, but when there are sports event especially when it comes to football people say so many stupid things and do so many stupid things.

Argentina should be banned from the next World Cup, and get into a program based on education about racism. I think it's the only way we would learn to set a limit. A fine will not change much, sadly. It's a society problem, when it comes to certain moments. It's not based on hatred but ignorance and a mocking culture. If you made a song about their european ancestry as people said here, Argentinians would laugh and take it well, because that's what they do. They need a good lesson to understand.

And the situation is not good politically also, because the right wing government is doing ridiculous things to stand in a stupid position. The society that voted these politicians did it to solve the economy problem, not to be doing stupid things.

Regarding the De Paul interview, I understand he means these people know him from everyday and they would know if he made a mistake and talk it privately. Maybe they know something we don't and Enzo is indeed a shit person, I prefer to believe he's not.
 
Bluelion7 said:
I wrote on this when the story first came out though that Kante developed a relationship with Enzo to help him mentally when he was having issues arriving mid season on such a high money move to the PL. Kante is such a great person. I was thinking about how disappointed Kante would have been seeing all this when I first saw the story.
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Yeah I understood that. The poster I replied to clearly was still thinking he's there still.
 
Bluelion7 said:
I wrote on this when the story first came out though that Kante developed a relationship with Enzo to help him mentally when he was having issues arriving mid season on such a high money move to the PL. Kante is such a great person. I was thinking about how disappointed Kante would have been seeing all this when I first saw the story.
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My guess is he kante believe it.
 


The Office of the President reports that no government can tell what to comment, what to think or what to do to the Argentine National Team, World Champion and Two-time American Champion, or to any other citizen. For this reason, Julio Garro ceases to be Undersecretary of Sports of the Nation.
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Julian Garro, Undersecretary of Sport sacked by the president because he had called for Messi to apologize.
https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...-france-argentina-minister-sacked-julio-garro
 
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