Antony under investigation by Brazilian authorities for domestic abuse | Inquiries ended | Back in the squad

[Cassidy]

I have and I think the details and what is there seems pretty damning. Enough at least to not be ignored or swept under the carpet.

Please lead with that, and not what you said previously.

Also of course it should not he ignored or swept under the carpet. However my personal believe is until the evidence is scrutinised he should not be treated as if he is guilty

 

[stw2022]

No they're not.

If you don't have a case and it's clearly a made up allegations you can be sued for libel, which I think celebrities would take seriously.

Normally there will be a case behind all these, but the why / what could be a little murky.

Off course nobody wants a trial because it's bad for all parties and if the hush up money is small you just take it as bad luck. But if you're accused of serious crime such as rape and violence sex you can be sure they won't take this lying down.

You can't sue someone for libel once a police report is made and there's an ongoing investigation. If police drop charges and you repeat the allegations you're open to being sued, sure. She's safe now. I suspect she knows once police drop it her best bet against being sued is the pr battle hence why she's making this play out in media

 

[Cassidy]

The police are already investigating. This isn't a brave, public cry for help from a victim looking for justice. This is a professional social media influencer taking advantage of the international football calendar for a well timed interview for maxium exposure that she was probably paid for.

Her line of work bears no relation to this.
Going public could also something she is doing to put pressure on law enforcement to do their jobs.

Notice Manchester police only announced their investigation yesterday

Better to stay impartial until the process is concluded by the authorities.

 

[Dirty Schwein]

I don't get bashing the club for its employees being allegedly stupid/abusive at home. Do we have cameras at their house and weren't doing anything about it?
How the feck is the club at fault here if its claimed that a player is being allegedly abusive?

I don't think the club is at fault but the club is unlucky.

SAF was very diligent and even had spies in Manchester keeping tabs on players yet he missed Ryan Giggs doing Ryan Giggs things.

 

[Sky1981]

I don't think the club is at fault but the club is unlucky.

SAF was very diligent and even had spies in Manchester keeping tabs on players yet he missed Ryan Giggs doing Ryan Giggs things.

To be fair even his brother and his close family missed it.

 

[talking robot]

Amber Heard is a good example. What she did was despicable but until the trial I chose to listen to her. Then the trial came and everything was cleared up.
The same here. If the alleged victim is lying it will get cleared up and Antony will not lose his career.
But if we start not believing victims and evidence simply gets swepped aside we end in a very different situation.

We don't actually know that she is a victim. At this stage, she is an alleged victim. Alleged victims should be taken seriously of course, and their claims investigated. But outright believing every allegation without proper evidence is unfair on the person being accused if they are innocent. It could take years for a court verdict to come in. In the meantime if we naively behave as if her story were true, Antony could lose these years of his career, and be subject to all sorts of (possibly unfounded) vehemence and slander on social media. Your idea to simply believe all alleged victims just incentivises people to make false claims and/or use the threat to do so to blackmail the accused. That is not desirable or fair.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

I don't think the club is at fault but the club is unlucky.

SAF was very diligent and even had spies in Manchester keeping tabs on players yet he missed Ryan Giggs doing Ryan Giggs things.

Or he knew about what Giggs was getting up to and ignored it because Giggs was the Man United and Premier League golden boy.

 

[Cassidy]

I don't think the club is at fault but the club is unlucky.

SAF was very diligent and even had spies in Manchester keeping tabs on players yet he missed Ryan Giggs doing Ryan Giggs things.

When were the allegations first made against Antony? If its before we signed him the club is at fault.

 

[pocco]

The police are already investigating. This isn't a brave, public cry for help from a victim looking for justice. This is a professional social media influencer taking advantage of the international football calendar for a well timed interview for maxium exposure that she was probably paid for.

That's a dangerous stance to take. Even if it's true what you're saying, if he had inflicted those injuries and done what she is claiming, she can do as she pleases really.

 

[The White Pele]

To be fair, Greenwood doesn't come under FFP since he cost us nothing. Players who have been bought and sold add to FFP, at least according to Simon Jordan.

Yes I meant it more in the sense that he was obviously a very valuable player for us who required replacing and whose value dropped to basically zero hence unable to negotiate a transfer fee.

 

[Moston Red]

It would be absurd unless pay was multiples of the fees. Today a player gets £10m per year for 5 years but a club chooses to pay £80m for them. One accusation, even if not legally proven, and you are bankrupt. Nobody is taking that contract.

Clubs would be best to agree a principle of proportional compensation from the selling team as standard within Uefa in the event of a player acting in a disreputable manner.

Obviously the player would need to be proven guilty first. Having said that, proving they’re guilty appears not to be that straight forward.

 

[Oranges038]

When it comes to gray areas, off course Manchester United if they wish and consult their teams of lawyers can pursue this clause.

It'll be up to the court arbitration, but among the team of lawyers they can decide if it's enforceable or not.

And I'm not talking about Antony, this one is still ongoing trial. It's slightly different than Greenwood's case

Of course.

In Antony's case, there were also allegations and complaints made to GMP back in January. Do we know if these were dismissed or are still being investigated?

I don't think the club is at fault but the club is unlucky.

SAF was very diligent and even had spies in Manchester keeping tabs on players yet he missed Ryan Giggs doing Ryan Giggs things.

In fairness SAF was very aware of what was going on in public places with regards to his players.

If Giggs own brother didn't know what he was doing, how in the hell would SAF know?

 

[Duafc]

It absolutely wouldnt have been admissible in court. The threshold for evidence in a criminal trial is extremely high

"Here's a photo that even though she didn’t report it at the time we're showing the court as evidence" would be too far fetched even for a soap opera. If you're v using photos alleging a crime the fact you hadn't obtained a police report essentially makes it junk evidence.

The police have it and it isn't sufficient to even charge. No judge is allowing it. That isn't an opinion. Near irrefutable evidence is thrown out at pre-trial stage very often. A photo where there exists a duspute of cause is not making it to a criminal trial. Not in a million years.

Okay you're wrong.

A photo provided by a victim, along with their statement of evidence would be admissable in 99/100 circumstances in the UK.

Whether it is compelling as evidence or enough to secure a conviction, or enough on its own for the police to even recommend prosection to the CPS or charge is a different matter.

You say to 'even charge' but the evidential threshold to charge is high and an investigation can take a year or more before leading to a charge or report and then a trial or conviction, it's important that they resolve all investigative lines of enquiry particularly if there are two conflicting accounts.

You are completely wrong and speaking matter of factly about something that is totally subjective.

 

[Rusholme Ruffian]

They have heard the full clip and stated that there is a greater context that we are not aware of. It hasn't been released due to the victim's right to anonymity. It's not up to the club to decide that.

But surely once the girl in question decided to get back with Greenwood (and especially now they've got a kid together) they could have ended the whole thing by explaining the full context? She could still have retained her anonymity and he could have remained a United player, earning his new little family shitloads, and they could - eventually - have gone back to living the life that they had before? His career at the very top level is most likely finished, and you're saying that all along there was evidence that could have stopped the whole thing in its tracks, and yet neither Mason, or the girl, ever chose to say what that wider context was? No way in the world.

Would you want to employ someone who even spoke to their partner like that? I certainly wouldn't. If there is the same level of evidence against Antony then I wouldn't want to employ him either.

 

[Plastic Evra]

The question was why are people assuming guilt, not why are people not making a determination and not ignoring the allegations

Not ignoring it means at a minimum accepting it could be true. Has to be factored in any discussion as a likely reality if only as an hypothetical.

Cautiousness is warranted because I uncharitably think most of us, myself included, are commenting without having at least perused the full accounts of the allegations his ex-partner made publicly.

 

[Pexbo]

This feels like a great thread to show off the Andrew Tate in me and explain to everyone why women are bad and can’t be trusted

 

[stw2022]

That's a dangerous stance to take. Even if it's true what you're saying, if he had inflicted those injuries and done what she is claiming, she can do as she pleases really.

Of course she can. But equally by going to the media she loses the privilege of not having her motives questioned in a way she wouldn't if she was simply a victim in a criminal case.

Two people, neither of which have been charged, each have their different versions of events.

 

[pocco]

The club will have to suspend him if they're too follow precedent set in the MG saga. Even after the charges were dropped he remained suspended. It'll be interesting to see how the club approach this, but I think we all know what the answer will be.

 

[GiveItToGi...nowait]

Amber Heard is a good example. What she did was despicable but until the trial I chose to listen to her. Then the trial came and everything was cleared up.
The same here. If the alleged victim is lying it will get cleared up and Antony will not lose his career.
But if we start not believing victims and evidence simply gets swepped aside we end in a very different situation.

The word "believing" being used incorrectly here which is why people are pushing back. I think you mean "taken seriously". We should take these accusations seriously and not just brush them off, that is very different to "believing" which means you accept the evidence as fact without proof.

 

[Slevs]

Amber Heard is a good example. What she did was despicable but until the trial I chose to listen to her. Then the trial came and everything was cleared up.
The same here. If the alleged victim is lying it will get cleared up and Antony will not lose his career.
But if we start not believing victims and evidence simply gets swepped aside we end in a very different situation.

Your logic has a massive flaw where you're not taking into consideration the time in between the allegation and the final result.

Depp lost millions and got cancelled from movies/sponsorships etc. He basically lost his career for that time period.

Same could happen to Antony

 

[OmarUnited4ever]

seems like a "she said, he said" story and it might not go anywhere if police investigation can't substantiate the case.

 

[pocco]

Of course she can. But equally by going to the media she loses the privilege of not having her motives questioned in a way she wouldn't if she was simply a victim in a criminal case.

Two people, neither of which have been charged, each have their different versions of events.

Question her motives, that's fine. But whatever her motives it is worth keeping in mind that she might be telling the truth and is a victim in all of it. I just don't see the point in making this about motive, personally.

 

[Dirty Schwein]

To be fair even his brother and his close family missed it.

True. Giggs trained at the Splinter Cell academy.

Or he knew about what Giggs was getting up to and ignored it because Giggs was the Man United and Premier League golden boy.

SAF never put a player above the club and that would feel quite out of character for him.

When were the allegations first made against Antony? If its before we signed him the club is at fault.

I have no idea but as a bunch happened in Brazil, it can probably be difficult to find.

In fairness SAF was very aware of what was going on in public places with regards to his players.

If Giggs own brother didn't know what he was doing, how in the hell would SAF know?

Exactly my point. The club can't be held responsible if hidden stuff surfaces later. I doubt Manchester United saw information that Antony been beating his partner and thought "hmm... Yes! Let's sign this guy, he has fight in him!"

Most likely they just didn't know.

 

[Catt]

They want Greenwood to be cleared because he was a sensational talent, and could've been our striker/right winger for the next decade. He was already very good for us, and would only get better.

Antony has cost us a fortune and disappoint in a lot of ways. Even though he should be given more time, it's evident what kind of player he will never become, even if he improves in other ways. People think he has been a massive failure (he really hasn't, it's just the transfer fee, which he can't help). These fans would much rather want him replaced than him to be freed of these charges, so they hope he will be found guilty, which means they also hope that his ex-girlfriend was beaten up. It's disgusting.

Haven't read through it all but wow, something is wrong with people if that's the case.

 

[Big Andy]

Amber Heard is a good example. What she did was despicable but until the trial I chose to listen to her. Then the trial came and everything was cleared up.
The same here. If the alleged victim is lying it will get cleared up and Antony will not lose his career.
But if we start not believing victims and evidence simply gets swepped aside we end in a very different situation.

To be fair Amber Heard was fecked because everyone loved Jonny Depp, she had no chance from the start of that trial and the court of public opinion had already decided Depp was innocent. You're not telling me that he's not given her a clout a few times when he's been high on booze and drugs, there was evidence that wasn't admissible in court which basically proved he'd given her a dig on a plane or something I think I read somewhere.

 

[zaafi]

I believe the victim.

She's not a victim yet, though, is she? Again, you're assuming he did it.

Ronaldo was accused of rape, do you think Ronaldo or the woman that made the claims is the victim here?

 

[crossy1686]

I am sure they do, how are you to find out about cases like this?

Ask everyone around him who's known him as a kid if he's a dick? Fergie would go and visit old school teachers and stuff to get a character reference. Nowadays they just check social media posts.

 

[pocco]

Your logic has a massive flaw where you're not taking into consideration the time in between the allegation and the final result.

Depp lost millions and got cancelled from movies/sponsorships etc. He basically lost his career for that time period.

Same could happen to Antony

I'm equally as wary of this scenario too. It's an absolute minefield really. We can comment and discuss, but the club has to conduct themselves properly and take an impartial view that considers both parties for now. The evidence doesn't look great for Antony, and I'm sure some of it will be easy to corroborate if true.

 

[Mainoldo]

Richard Arnold told you over a pint?

Was that you in the corner with the screw face.

 

[Cassidy]

Not ignoring it means at a minimum accepting it could be true. Has to be factored in any discussion as a likely reality if only as an hypothetical.

Cautiousness is warranted because I uncharitably think most of us, myself included, are commenting without having at least perused the full accounts of the allegations his ex-partner made publicly.

There is a difference between accepting it could be true. And saying it is or assuming it is

 

[Pronewbie]

Oh... by the way, for people who thinks it's easy to take a swipe on celebrities with lots of money. It's not

In order for one to accuse someone they need lawyers, evidence, they need hours and hours of legal advice which we know doesn't come cheap. It's easier for a 200k / week footballer to have the best lawyers that could grill you to find fault in every little thing you say, and could really make life hell for you.

Even Amber Heard can't get away with lying in the court.

She did. In the British one.

 

[stw2022]

Okay you're wrong.

A photo provided by a victim, along with their statement of evidence would be admissable in 99/100 circumstances in the UK.

Whether it is compelling as evidence or enough to secure a conviction, or enough on its own for the police to even recommend prosection to the CPS or charge is a different matter.

You say to 'even charge' but the evidential threshold to charge is high and an investigation can take a year or more before leading to a charge or report and then a trial or conviction, it's important that they resolve all investigative lines of enquiry particularly if there are two conflicting accounts.

You are completely wrong and speaking matter of factly about something that is totally subjective.

"Here's a picture, she says it was caused by him, he disagree but the judge agreed that we're allowed to show it anyway so you can make your own mind up"

Does your knowledge of how trials work come from the telly?

It's literally insane if you think that meets he threshold for evidence admissable at a criminal trial.

Unless the photo is contemporaneously notarised by officials the photo never passees the bar for evidence. It clearly didn't pass the threshold required to be evidence for arrest yet you think it's admissable in a trial?

"All evidence is admissable 99/100 if there is a written statement from the person who wants to intoduce it to court that is true"

Sorry but that's equal parts ridiculous and hilarious. What evidence would you suppose ever gets thrown out on account of the fact presumably everyone's willing to sign statements to say they think their evidence is true?

The ignorance both of the legal proces and crimal trials is astonishing and why 'going on Oprah' is so effective a tactic on so many people

 

[pratyush_utd]

Believe the victim in this case. Only thing is we need to let courts decide who is the victim.

Those proofs are not enough and can be easily manipulated. Case was already in investigation process and was leaked to media deliberately. Either the leaker is very confident in the evidence or the person believes social media trial has better chance of hurting Antony as the courts will require actual proof. Just cant understand if you really want justice, then why would you go and speak about evidence when police was already investigating unless your only intention is to publicly malign someone

 

[Plastic Evra]

There is a difference between accepting it could be true. And saying it is or assuming it is

I agree.
But I do think some people might conflate cases of the latter with the former in those sort of discussions.

 

[Cassidy]

I agree.
But I do think some people might conflate cases of the latter with the former in those sort of discussions.

I also agree
However the post you responded to was asking why are people assuming he is guilty and quite clearly there are people who are

 

[Halftrack]

They have heard the full clip and stated that there is a greater context that we are not aware of.

No one has said that, or anything close to it.

 

[glasgow 21]

True. Giggs trained at the Splinter Cell academy.

SAF never put a player above the club and that would feel quite out of character for him.

I have no idea but as a bunch happened in Brazil, it can probably be difficult to find.


Exactly my point. The club can't be held responsible if hidden stuff surfaces later. I doubt Manchester United saw information that Antony been beating his partner and thought "hmm... Yes! Let's sign this guy, he has fight in him!"

Most likely they just didn't know.

I couldn't care less which way this goes but one thing is for certain there is more mileage in a claim true/false against a 250k week player at United than a 19k week player at Ajax. When United bought Antony he was married to childhood sweetheart Rosilene and had a child in 2019. A lot has happened in a year and a bit.

 

[Shakesy]

Greenwood, Sancho, Antony... Scandal after scandal. Ad nauseating

 

[Glorio]

Have to say, we're in a bit of a societal quandary where on one hand, you have to create a safe environment for victims to feel they can always come forward, while on the other hand, there's the scary prospect of assumed guilt by the public upon an accusation.

Either side of it is incredibly destructive.
For instance, we don't really know for sure whether or not Antony is guilty, or let's be honest even Greenwood for that matter.
It's quite disturbing, the thought being falsely accused by someone that has it in for you, it's life-destroying. On the other hand, it's life-destroying to be a silenced victim.

I think the biggest source of difficulty in all of this is the law of public opinion, whichever way it sways.

 

[Jacob]

Has a footballer ever gone to jail? I assume any transfer fee paid is gone.