[sullydnl]

Thought it was pretty clearly Dalot's fault. You can't expect your goalkeeper to simultaneously take a high position to be involved in possession and a deep position to be present to prevent a lob if that possession is lost. The position he was in was pretty much the position we want him in. You're banking on not losing possession that badly and the opposition not being able to take advantage of it when you do.

Not that I'd overly criticise Dalot either. These are the sort of teething problems and feck-ups you expect when making changes that big and it is just a pre-season game. Shit happens.

 

[OrcaFat]

I reckon teams will try to exploit him and test him in different ways. If he's off his line, try to lob him and it maybe causes indecision at the least. But I don't think he looks convincing at the actual goalkeeping part and teams will be encouraged to get shots off and look for loose saves and mistakes on the follow up. Not to mention how he flaps at aerial balls quite a bit and parties into dangerous areas. I've only seen the highlights today but he also made some poor passes from the back when under pressure. He was great in possession in the CL final but I'm not sure if that's his standard performance or just a good day.

He's going to have to be made of tough stuff because I think teams are going to be looking at some of this and seeing potential for a mistake or two, and the better teams will be trying to put him under pressure in different ways.

Whilst De Gea was a bit more vanilla, I don't think teams existed mistakes even if they did happen. Only in possession really, but we didn't involve him too much in the build up and negated that issue for the most part.

The reality is that we can’t have a guy who never leaves his line and have a keeper who sweeps and joins in the play. These are mutually exclusive styles. You have to pick your preferred style and take the rough with the smooth.

These two guys are opposite extremes and it’s possible there is a happy medium somewhere but I think we should start out with Onana being what he is and back him. He’s a confident lad and intelligent. He knows all the stuff we’re saying will happen, he’ll be ready for it and I can’t see him flinching.

 

[OrcaFat]

Thought it was pretty clearly Dalot's fault. You can't expect your goalkeeper to simultaneously take a high position to be involved in possession and a deep position to be present to prevent a lob if that possession is lost. The position he was in was pretty much the position we want him in. You're banking on not losing possession that badly and the opposition not being able to take advantage of it when you do.

Not that I'd overly criticise Dalot either. These are the sort of teething problems and feck-ups you expect when making changes that big and it is just a pre-season game. Shit happens.

On the money.

 

[RuudTom83]

Onana just needs a few games to learn which teammates to trust, and which ones might have a feck up in them.

 

[OldTrevil]

Such a breathe of fresh air to have such a commanding keeper playing out from the back. It's going to take some time to get used to it for some I suspect

 

[Champ]

Onana just needs a few games to learn which teammates to trust, and which ones might have a feck up in them.

Definitely agree with this.

Onana made an error today, Dalot the bigger error, but am sure Onana will change his positioning based on what he has seen so far.

He didn't need to be out so far for the goal, there was an incident a few minutes before the goal whereby he was in the perfect position and headed a potential through ball to a defender which De Gea would never have done , which shows he has the ability and knows where to be, just needs to learn how to work with the defence he has.

 

[Scorpy]

Onana's had a good preseason and it was unfortunate he conceded the goal today after poor pass from Dalot which really shouldn't be happening at all. The ball was given away by Dalot when he had all the time to make the pass. But like the tweet states below, Onana was in the correct position but the execution from the Lens player was superb. I just hope we can add someone like Amrabat because I feel we'll be stronger having Casemiro and Amrabat together in midfield.

It’s bizarre just how much some people are not grasping this by putting the blame on him.

 

[K Stand Knut]

Definitely agree with this.

Onana made an error today, Dalot the bigger error, but am sure Onana will change his positioning based on what he has seen so far.

He didn't need to be out so far for the goal, there was an incident a few minutes before the goal whereby he was in the perfect position and headed a potential through ball to a defender which De Gea would never have done , which shows he has the ability and knows where to be, just needs to learn how to work with the defence he has.

I’ve come to this thread late but cannot believe that I’m reading.

No blame for the goal today should be anywhere near Onana’s feet. He did nothing wrong and cannot, not should not, be expected to believe or think that a fellow INTERNATIONAL player such as Dalot would make such a glaring mistake and ultimately make his positioning completely wrong.

If people are really suggesting that Onana should plant himself on his 6-yard box because Dalot has the ball at his feet but can come out of his box become Shaw has the ball, they are being stupid. Onana was in his right position today and Dalot should potentially be dropped because he can’t be trusted

 

[Santoryo]

Thought it was pretty clearly Dalot's fault. You can't expect your goalkeeper to simultaneously take a high position to be involved in possession and a deep position to be present to prevent a lob if that possession is lost. The position he was in was pretty much the position we want him in. You're banking on not losing possession that badly and the opposition not being able to take advantage of it when you do.

Not that I'd overly criticise Dalot either. These are the sort of teething problems and feck-ups you expect when making changes that big and it is just a pre-season game. Shit happens.

Well said. Onana bears no fault in the goal at all and I'm not too fussed about Dalot's mistake. We're making changes in how we play and there was always going to be an adjustment period and these sort of mistakes could happen.

It's a good thing it happened in pre season and hopefully Dalot will know better in the future not to have those type of concentration lapse in possession at the back.

 

[Champ]

I’ve come to this thread late but cannot believe that I’m reading.

No blame for the goal today should be anywhere near Onana’s feet. He did nothing wrong and cannot, not should not, be expected to believe or think that a fellow INTERNATIONAL player such as Dalot would make such a glaring mistake and ultimately make his positioning completely wrong.

If people are really suggesting that Onana should plant himself on his 6-yard box because Dalot has the ball at his feet but can come out of his box become Shaw has the ball, they are being stupid. Onana was in his right position today and Dalot should potentially be dropped because he can’t be trusted

Is anyone suggesting that Onana should be in his 6 yard box? Haven't read anyone suggest that.

He was out of position, it's pretty simple. Watch the game back and you'll see Onana is a great position a few minutes before the goal, he was on the edge of his box, maybe slightly inside and the ball was given away and led to a through ball, Onana headed it back out and danger over, no first time shot because he was in a perfect position.

Dalot shouldn't be giving the ball away there obviously, but Onana was too far out which led to an opportunity for a shot.

 

[NLunited]

Is anyone suggesting that Onana should be in his 6 yard box? Haven't read anyone suggest that.

He was out of position, it's pretty simple. Watch the game back and you'll see Onana is a great position a few minutes before the goal, he was on the edge of his box, maybe slightly inside and the ball was given away and led to a through ball, Onana headed it back out and danger over, no first time shot because he was in a perfect position.

Dalot shouldn't be giving the ball away there obviously, but Onana was too far out which led to an opportunity for a shot.

BS, 100% Dalot‘s mistake who put it on a platter for a first time shot. Onana was where he is supposed to be. How can you blame the gk for a pass like that, it is completely mental.

De Gea is capable of doing that all by himself.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Is anyone suggesting that Onana should be in his 6 yard box? Haven't read anyone suggest that.

He was out of position, it's pretty simple. Watch the game back and you'll see Onana is a great position a few minutes before the goal, he was on the edge of his box, maybe slightly inside and the ball was given away and led to a through ball, Onana headed it back out and danger over, no first time shot because he was in a perfect position.

Dalot shouldn't be giving the ball away there obviously, but Onana was too far out which led to an opportunity for a shot.

That was only the “perfect position” if he’s not expected to be making himself available as a passing option when the ball is deep in the opposition half. In the sequence of play they scored from he was showing for a pass, if needed. So positioned himself to be closer to the action. Which makes Dalot’s cock up even more inexcusable.

No big deal. I’m sure the team will soon get used to a goalkeeper finally doing what modern goalkeepers are supposed to do and we won’t see Dalot cocking up passes like that when he can easily roll it to Onana instead.

 

[Oranges038]

I’ve come to this thread late but cannot believe that I’m reading.

No blame for the goal today should be anywhere near Onana’s feet. He did nothing wrong and cannot, not should not, be expected to believe or think that a fellow INTERNATIONAL player such as Dalot would make such a glaring mistake and ultimately make his positioning completely wrong.

If people are really suggesting that Onana should plant himself on his 6-yard box because Dalot has the ball at his feet but can come out of his box become Shaw has the ball, they are being stupid. Onana was in his right position today and Dalot should potentially be dropped because he can’t be trusted

Ball is on the half way line, your team is in possession, he's in a perfect position at the edge of his box, he could maybe even be further up.

Dalot gives the ball away carelessly and causes the goal chance, if he doesn't do that, Onana isn't in any trouble at all and there's no goal and nobody can say he’s poorly positioned.

 

[Zlatans Knee]

I’ve come to this thread late but cannot believe that I’m reading.

No blame for the goal today should be anywhere near Onana’s feet. He did nothing wrong and cannot, not should not, be expected to believe or think that a fellow INTERNATIONAL player such as Dalot would make such a glaring mistake and ultimately make his positioning completely wrong.

If people are really suggesting that Onana should plant himself on his 6-yard box because Dalot has the ball at his feet but can come out of his box become Shaw has the ball, they are being stupid. Onana was in his right position today and Dalot should potentially be dropped because he can’t be trusted

Dropped for who? Problem is that AWB did an equally awful pass in the last friendly. They both have it in them to do that.

 

[sullydnl]

I’ve come to this thread late but cannot believe that I’m reading.

No blame for the goal today should be anywhere near Onana’s feet. He did nothing wrong and cannot, not should not, be expected to believe or think that a fellow INTERNATIONAL player such as Dalot would make such a glaring mistake and ultimately make his positioning completely wrong.

If people are really suggesting that Onana should plant himself on his 6-yard box because Dalot has the ball at his feet but can come out of his box become Shaw has the ball, they are being stupid. Onana was in his right position today and Dalot should potentially be dropped because he can’t be trusted

The issue is that the player you'd be dropping him for did this in another pre-season game:



Neither can really be trusted not to feck up at some point. But for the sake of sanity it's not worth being overly critical of either for mistakes in these pre-season games, because we have to play one of them. Just hope they sharpen up in the real games.

 

[Howl]

I’ve come to this thread late but cannot believe that I’m reading.

No blame for the goal today should be anywhere near Onana’s feet. He did nothing wrong and cannot, not should not, be expected to believe or think that a fellow INTERNATIONAL player such as Dalot would make such a glaring mistake and ultimately make his positioning completely wrong.

If people are really suggesting that Onana should plant himself on his 6-yard box because Dalot has the ball at his feet but can come out of his box become Shaw has the ball, they are being stupid. Onana was in his right position today and Dalot should potentially be dropped because he can’t be trusted

I don't really agree with this. Whilst the pass was bad if you look at the positioning of Varane it was a few yards ahead of where he would have normally been last season. This preseason you can see the defenders stepping up further with Casemiro dropping back, and with Dalot having played less with the likes of Varane and co, it seemed like he misjudged where Varane would be because of the new gameplan. I imagine with time the players will be more fluid/comfortable and that includes AWB as well. These things happen in preseason, and I think people are reading way too much into it.

 

[11101]

I don't really agree with this. Whilst the pass was bad if you look at the positioning of Varane it was a few yards ahead of where he would have normally been last season. This preseason you can see the defenders stepping up further with Casemiro dropping back, and with Dalot having played less with the likes of Varane and co, it seemed like he misjudged where Varane would be because of the new gameplan. I imagine with time the players will be more fluid/comfortable and that includes AWB as well. These things happen in preseason, and I think people are reading way too much into it.

You're being too kind. This was not some kind of intricate flicked layoff, it was a simple as they come pass to the centre back. He just scuffed the pass that's all. Pre season is the place to do it but it better not happen again.

Either way, there is no blame on Onana at all.

 

[Howl]

You're being too kind. This was not some kind of intricate flicked layoff, it was a simple as they come pass to the centre back. He just scuffed the pass that's all. Pre season is the place to do it but it better not happen again.

Either way, there is no blame on Onana at all.

Oh 100% Onana's positioning wasn't terrible there.. It's a catch 22 with that style of keeper. You want him further forward to be a passing option/stop breaks, but then your more at risk of things like the lob happening. It comes with the territory.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Thought it was pretty clearly Dalot's fault. You can't expect your goalkeeper to simultaneously take a high position to be involved in possession and a deep position to be present to prevent a lob if that possession is lost. The position he was in was pretty much the position we want him in. You're banking on not losing possession that badly and the opposition not being able to take advantage of it when you do.

Not that I'd overly criticise Dalot either. These are the sort of teething problems and feck-ups you expect when making changes that big and it is just a pre-season game. Shit happens.

Pretty much.

Some of these mistakes will happen. Correct them and move on.

 

[Plant0x84]

hopefully Dalot will no better in the future not to have those type of concentration lapse in possession at the back.

Don’t hold your breath, we’ve seen them before. He seems prone to the occasional brain fart.

 

[Stack]

Im looking forward to the season, Onana is a major reason, I love keepers with some life and character about them. I think he is going to be brilliant for us in the coming years.

 

[Champ]

That was only the “perfect position” if he’s not expected to be making himself available as a passing option when the ball is deep in the opposition half. In the sequence of play they scored from he was showing for a pass, if needed. So positioned himself to be closer to the action. Which makes Dalot’s cock up even more inexcusable.

No big deal. I’m sure the team will soon get used to a goalkeeper finally doing what modern goalkeepers are supposed to do and we won’t see Dalot cocking up passes like that when he can easily roll it to Onana instead.

He didn't need to be so high, he could have quite easily been 5 yards back and the situation would never have happened. Not sure why that's even a debate but never mind.

As for the latter, I fully agree.

 

[Pronewbie]

Dalot has a brain-fart pass in him every game or so. Onana will have to anticipate that and scramble back earlier.

I'm pretty sure we're going to start off the season really shaky with a different system and spine. I just hope it won't be like last season.

 

[K Stand Knut]

Is anyone suggesting that Onana should be in his 6 yard box? Haven't read anyone suggest that.

He was out of position, it's pretty simple. Watch the game back and you'll see Onana is a great position a few minutes before the goal, he was on the edge of his box, maybe slightly inside and the ball was given away and led to a through ball, Onana headed it back out and danger over, no first time shot because he was in a perfect position.

Dalot shouldn't be giving the ball away there obviously, but Onana was too far out which led to an opportunity for a shot.

Ok. I disagree entirely. It was a simple pass that Dalot should never be misplacing and then Onana‘s positioning is completely irrelevant and isn’t being discussed.

 

[mu4c_20le]

Ok. I disagree entirely. It was a simple pass that Dalot should never be misplacing and then Onana‘s positioning is completely irrelevant and isn’t being discussed.

This sounds extreme. Defenders can expect to be pressed in midfield and can and will lose the ball on occasion. The goalkeeper should be anticipating all of that instead of placing complete trust in them.

 

[K Stand Knut]

This sounds extreme. Defenders can expect to be pressed in midfield and can and will lose the ball on occasion. The goalkeeper should be anticipating all of that instead of placing complete trust in them.

Yes but that isn’t really what happened. Dalot simply misplaced a very simple pass, by professional footballer standards, under minimal pressure.

Like I said, if he doesn’t, Onana’s positioning is irrelevant and nobody is trying to apportion any blame to him because the ball doesn’t go in the goal.

Imagine if Dalot completes that pass. If he did, Not a single person in the world watches that back and claims that Onana is out of position at the time the pass is made.

 

[Wrecking ralf]

The reality regarding the goal today is. If Dalot takes a touch, he could have passed the ball better or even been able to pass it back to Onana himself. He didn’t even look when he made the pass. Our players need to get used to how Onana plays and positions himself and vice versa. It’ll come good eventually

 

[roonster09]

How do we know the manager asked him to be out of his box, considering a few minutes earlier we were in a similar situation and he was IN his box and he dealt with it superbly.

I don't understand why people can't just admit that he was out of position?!
Dalot made and error, but also so did Onana.

It was not a similar situation. Lens GK had the ball and he tried to pass the ball behind the defense, no GK will be standing at 3/4th of the field when opponents is in possession. The whole play Lens had possession, they took GK, passed it to defender, tried to take it forward but the passing lane wasn't there so he passed the ball to GK who played direct pass behind the defense.

The goal that happened, Manutd were in possession with no pressure at all and building the play from the back, with 3-4 players near by and Onana was one more option for safe backpass to change the direction of the attack. It was just a lapse of concentration from Dalot, nothing else. Nothing to do with Onana who was in right position to be an extra outfield player to help the build up play.

if Shaw makes a forward run and gets caught out then he’s partially to blame, it’s a team game. Anticipating is a big part of the game.

Getting caught out of position can be through someone doing something fecking stupid, yes you’re right, it can also be because someone has fecking misjudged the situation and so they’re also at fault, it’s never as clean cut as you’re suggesting.

If the CB is under pressure when trying to build up play and Shaw makes attacking run without being an option then yes, he should be blamed for not being in position. If we are in attacking third and some player makes a ridiculous backpass which breaks the entire team structure then no one but the player who made the pass has done mistake. Nothing to do with Shaw's positioning.

Likewise, if the player is under pressure in any third and Onana just randomly positions himself at 3/4th of the pitch then it's Onana's mistake too but in this instance, ball is exactly at half court, defenders are trying to build up the attack and under 0 pressure, Onana positioned himself to be the +1 option for pass. Can't blame him for Dalot's lapse in concentration and being so careless, it's not even like he was in difficult situation and had no options. It was a simplest of pass and he had lot of options and time. No professional player is expected to make a mistake but still it happens because of concentration levels. Doesn't mean GK should be behind expecting Dalot to give away possession in that situation.

 

[Milo2035]

I truly think he's the best GK in the world rn. What a beast technically, physically and mentally.

 

[tenpoless]

Hopefully having him in the squad means our defenders will be trained much more not to feck up passing. Regardless of the GK playstyle I'd rather not watch defenders giving away chances when the ball is in our control. Elite teams don't do that.

 

[NoPace]

He liked to go long up the middle to forwards with Inter (with line drives to strikers dropping deep and beating CBs to the ball) and that likely suits Hojlund more than Rashford (though having the striker drop deep and leave a diagonal run inside should suit Rashford coming off the left as our primary goalscorer).

Wasn't great today, but I already love him.

 

[Who's Kissing Cameras?]

De Gea on twitter

Try and catch a cross mate. So childish.

 

[Longshanks]

Awful mistake from dalot, brilliant finish from the striker. Not an awful lot to put on Onana, it looks ugly and I certainly wouldn't say he covered himself in glory but I wouldn't say he made a glaring error, for the goal.

Dalot is the one who makes a glaring error, you want your keeper to be high so you can keep your line high. That's what we signed him for. You can't then blame him when he is high and your full back gives it straight to the opposition striker putting him clean through,under no pressure whatsoever. You can't plan for that.

Onana is a huge leap forward for us in so many ways, but there is an element of risk attached to it. Playing high, playing out and actively sweeping is risky for a GK and there will be mistakes it happens to best sides aswell. So we will concede some head scratching goals this season no doubt. But hopefully it's all for the reward of actually being able to control games, initiate a more aggressive high press and play through an opposition high press.

 

[M Bison]

If the CB is under pressure when trying to build up play and Shaw makes attacking run without being an option then yes, he should be blamed for not being in position. If we are in attacking third and some player makes a ridiculous backpass which breaks the entire team structure then no one but the player who made the pass has done mistake. Nothing to do with Shaw's positioning.

Likewise, if the player is under pressure in any third and Onana just randomly positions himself at 3/4th of the pitch then it's Onana's mistake too but in this instance, ball is exactly at half court, defenders are trying to build up the attack and under 0 pressure, Onana positioned himself to be the +1 option for pass. Can't blame him for Dalot's lapse in concentration and being so careless, it's not even like he was in difficult situation and had no options. It was a simplest of pass and he had lot of options and time. No professional player is expected to make a mistake but still it happens because of concentration levels. Doesn't mean GK should be behind expecting Dalot to give away possession in that situation.

Im not saying it wasn’t down to Dalot’s poor pass but I am saying Onana has to take some responsibility, no keeper at any level should be getting lobbed from the half way line.

If that’s how he’s going to play, then we’re going to have problems against teams, certainly the likes of City where if we lose the ball in the middle 1/3 of the pitch, KDB will be pinging it from wherever he is and catching us out.

During the season we are going to concede position in that middle third, but we can’t be in a position whereby we are at risk of conceding long range shots every time we do.

It’s not a massive issue as it’s a friendly but across the team, it’s one we need to learn from and I’m sure we will.

 

[M Bison]

De Gea on twitter

I don’t get it?

 

[roonster09]

Im not saying it wasn’t down to Dalot’s poor pass but I am saying Onana has to take some responsibility, no keeper at any level should be getting lobbed from the half way line.

If that’s how he’s going to play, then we’re going to have problems against teams, certainly the likes of City where if we lose the ball in the middle 1/3 of the pitch, KDB will be pinging it from wherever he is and catching us out.

During the season we are going to concede position in that middle third, but we can’t be in a position whereby we are at risk of conceding long range shots every time we do.

It’s not a massive issue as it’s a friendly but across the team, it’s one we need to learn from and I’m sure we will.

It's about decision making, when players are pressed, GK won't be leaving his line and stand so far out. In this situation, players were under 0 pressure.

Also do you blame GK if they concede goal from half way line when they come for attacking corner?

Also we need to learn for sure but it's not on Onana, it's that we should learn not to lose possession in those situations when players are under 0 pressure and so many passing options.

 

[Shake Jism]

I don’t get it?

A distillation of the old phrase about not getting too high on success or too low after failure.

If you can meet success and failure and treat them both as impostors, then you are a balanced man.

 

[M Bison]

It's about decision making, when players are pressed, GK won't be leaving his line and stand so far out. In this situation, players were under 0 pressure.

Also do you blame GK if they concede goal from half way line when they come for attacking corner?

Also we need to learn for sure but it's not on Onana, it's that we should learn not to lose possession in those situations when players are under 0 pressure and so many passing options.

It’s broader than that for me, if we’re pressed then the GK has a long way to get back into position and as I say, we’re basically a team that can’t afford to lose possession in the middle third. Time will tell and I’m sure we’ll get it right and to be clear, I do like that he’s more active in the build up.

On your second point, hypothetical questions arent going to help here, if you’ve got an example I’m happy to give my opinion, the likelihood is it will depend on a few factors, football is never a one size fits all argument and is always nuanced.

 

[roonster09]

It’s broader than that for me, if we’re pressed then the GK has a long way to get back into position and as I say, we’re basically a team that can’t afford to lose possession in the middle third. Time will tell and I’m sure we’ll get it right and to be clear, I do like that he’s more active in the build up.

On your second point, hypothetical questions arent going to help here, if you’ve got an example I’m happy to give my opinion, the likelihood is it will depend on a few factors, football is never a one size fits all argument and is always nuanced.

no keeper at any level should be getting lobbed from the half way line.

You said the bold part and then made a statement to fit all arguments in one size.

 

[M Bison]

You said the bold part and then made a statement to fit all arguments in one size.

ha ha I stand by that one I’m sure there are instances where I’m wrong with that statement but yesterday wasn’t one of them in my view, we’ll agree to disagree