Anderson on his way out?

VoetbalWizard said:
slightly off topic, but i imagine we are the friendliest/nicest "big" club on the planet when it comes to giving players a chance.

i can imagine if anderson was at barca, he would've been fecked off after 2 season max.
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I think it's down to the manager. He seems very reluctant to let a player go, if he feels he has good potential. It's worked out great sometimes.

Fletcher and Ronaldo being two obvious examples. Ronaldo, well it took him 5 years before we really saw the world class player that he would become. Most thought he was a show pony and thought he would never mature into a great player.

Fletcher, well I was one of the people who slated him to death and really couldn't understand why he was picked. He turned into a brilliant midfielder though.

There have been other cases of discipline/attitude problems that the manger chose to back the player instead of getting rid. Keane and Cantona being two.

Sometimes it's right to give as many chances as possible, personally I think Anderson has all the qualities to be a great player and would love to see him stay and fulfill his potential. He still has lots of time left to grow as a person and a player and he will always, if nothing else be a brilliant squad player to have.
 
TDon69 said:
I think it's down to the manager. He seems very reluctant to let a player go, if he feels he has good potential. It's worked out great sometimes.
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Or you've got a player signed for £20M on £60K a week that you can't get rid of without a major financial hit.
 
As much as everyone seems to think you're a giant trolling fanny Pete, I agree with you. Under current circumstances we'll go above and beyond and not do as we did with Veron or any other flop in the past.
 
Varun_Utd said:
:Thats what am afraid of actually. That he goes to Portugal, has a great season and becomes a star so to speak. would he then again want to come back and fight for his place? Am not so sure about that.
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A 'Star' star? Or an excellent midfielder who plays well?

Because we haven't really had a 'star' in our midfield for years. Scholes is the humble servant, Carrick the quiet achiever, Fletch the tireless worker growing into his craft. Even back to Keane and he was the skipper and not 'star' per se but still special. Shinji is probably about as close as we've been to a 'star' signing in the last few years? (I could be missing someone glaringly obvious..)

As long as Anderson plays the better part of a full season and does well and we win trophies with him playing some form of long term role I'll be happy. Too much emphasis these days is put on 'this player needs to be a star', 'this player has to dominate'.

We have a lot of players with their heads screwed on and if they all work hard they have the ability to bring it home again. I would much prefer that than 3 or 4 ~30m signings every year to try and create a dominating midfield.

But that's just me.
 
ghaliboy said:
A 'Star' star? Or an excellent midfielder who plays well?

Because we haven't really had a 'star' in our midfield for years. Scholes is the humble servant, Carrick the quiet achiever, Fletch the tireless worker growing into his craft. Even back to Keane and he was the skipper and not 'star' per se but still special. Shinji is probably about as close as we've been to a 'star' signing in the last few years? (I could be missing someone glaringly obvious..)

As long as Anderson plays the better part of a full season and does well and we win trophies with him playing some form of long term role I'll be happy. Too much emphasis these days is put on 'this player needs to be a star', 'this player has to dominate'.

We have a lot of players with their heads screwed on and if they all work hard they have the ability to bring it home again. I would much prefer that than 3 or 4 ~30m signings every year to try and create a dominating midfield.

But that's just me.
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Scholes not a midfield star? Are you on crack????
 
ghaliboy said:
A 'Star' star? Or an excellent midfielder who plays well?

Because we haven't really had a 'star' in our midfield for years. Scholes is the humble servant, Carrick the quiet achiever, Fletch the tireless worker growing into his craft. Even back to Keane and he was the skipper and not 'star' per se but still special. Shinji is probably about as close as we've been to a 'star' signing in the last few years? (I could be missing someone glaringly obvious..)

As long as Anderson plays the better part of a full season and does well and we win trophies with him playing some form of long term role I'll be happy. Too much emphasis these days is put on 'this player needs to be a star', 'this player has to dominate'.

We have a lot of players with their heads screwed on and if they all work hard they have the ability to bring it home again. I would much prefer that than 3 or 4 ~30m signings every year to try and create a dominating midfield.

But that's just me.
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Struggling to see what you mean here if am honest. My point is, if Ando goes to loan to Portugal and has a great season, establishing himself there and becoming a star player, however you define it, would he then want to come back and fight for his place again? i dont think so.
 
Let's face it, he's too injury prone and hasn't progressed much at all, if we can get good money might as well sell him
 
TDon69 said:
I think it's down to the manager. He seems very reluctant to let a player go, if he feels he has good potential. It's worked out great sometimes.

Fletcher and Ronaldo being two obvious examples. Ronaldo, well it took him 5 years before we really saw the world class player that he would become. Most thought he was a show pony and thought he would never mature into a great player.

Fletcher, well I was one of the people who slated him to death and really couldn't understand why he was picked. He turned into a brilliant midfielder though.

There have been other cases of discipline/attitude problems that the manger chose to back the player instead of getting rid. Keane and Cantona being two.

Sometimes it's right to give as many chances as possible, personally I think Anderson has all the qualities to be a great player and would love to see him stay and fulfill his potential. He still has lots of time left to grow as a person and a player and he will always, if nothing else be a brilliant squad player to have.
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is 5 years not long enough...how many more years?
How long is it going to take him to mature into the amazing super midfield general that alot of you think he has the bleeding potential to be? How long is a piece of string?

Anderson just isnt good enough these days, look at our main rivals, player for player and ask yourself would he get into their team ahead of their players.
No. He wouldnt, well in my opinion anyway he wouldnt.
He's a player that would be comfotable at the level of everton and villa etc but as a top club United should be looking at better players than anderson.


The reserves is for potential, 5years around the fisrt team is long enough for me to say if he hasnt done it by now he never will.
Will he be 28 when he realises his "potential"...? We get 2 or 3 good seasons out of him after 9 or 10 seasons of hard work developing this "potential".

feck that, send him on loan to another club and let them develop him and pay his wages, then if he blossoms take him back, if not sell him.
 
McGrathsipan said:
is 5 years not long enough...how many more years?
How long is it going to take him to mature into the amazing super midfield general that alot of you think he has the bleeding potential to be? How long is a piece of string?

Anderson just isnt good enough these days, look at our main rivals, player for player and ask yourself would he get into their team ahead of their players.
No. He wouldnt, well in my opinion anyway he wouldnt.
He's a player that would be comfotable at the level of everton and villa etc but as a top club United should be looking at better players than anderson.


The reserves is for potential, 5years around the fisrt team is long enough for me to say if he hasnt done it by now he never will.
Will he be 28 when he realises his "potential"...? We get 2 or 3 good seasons out of him after 9 or 10 seasons of hard work developing this "potential".

feck that, send him on loan to another club and let them develop him and pay his wages, then if he blossoms take him back, if not sell him.
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Question his fitness but let's not revise history. He's clearly got the ability as he showed the start of this season just gone, the end of the one before it and a number of times before that. He's had a few bad games of course but so has every member of this squad.

As I keep saying. A year older than Cleverley but because Anderson was playing in Champions League finals and (when fit) playing in a League and Cup winning side and Cleverley was behind him in his development playing (when he wasnt injured) in the reserves, at Wigan and Watford and lets not forget he played less games this season just gone than Anderson did.

Ones the saviour, one should be sold. Baffling.
 
Pexbo said:
Question his fitness but let's not revise history. He's clearly got the ability as he showed the start of this season just gone, the end of the one before it and a number of times before that. He's had a few bad games of course but so has every member of this squad.

As I keep saying. A year older than Cleverley but because Anderson was playing in Champions League finals and (when fit) playing in a League and Cup winning side and Cleverley was behind him in his development playing (when he wasnt injured) in the reserves, at Wigan and Watford and lets not forget he played less games this season just gone than Anderson did.

Ones the saviour, one should be sold. Baffling.
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He's had more than most. Which is why people are losing patience with him. The comparison with Cleverley is unfair as he cost nothing and has barely had a third of the season to prove he has what it takes for the first team.

A better comparison would be Nani, who is of a similar age and financial investment. He's also had his ups and downs but has put in a far higher proportion of good performances than Anderson, out of all the games they both started these last 2 or 3 years.
 
Ramshock said:
Pogbas African granny was called that dont you know?

Pogba
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Christ you're tedious and about as funny as human trafficking. Drop the Pogba shit it's obvious people are gonna want to discuss him.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
He's had more than most. Which is why people are losing patience with him. The comparison with Cleverley is unfair as he cost nothing and has barely had a third of the season to prove he has what it takes for the first team.

A better comparison would be Nani, who is of a similar age and financial investment. He's also had his ups and downs but has put in a far higher proportion of good performances than Anderson, out of all the games they both started these last 2 or 3 years.
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I'm glad you compare him with one of the best wingers in the world, because there is his potential level when fit. Ando isn't far away but we all know what has haltered his developement. I'm as insecure about his future as you but I'm optimistic. There is the diffence.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
A better comparison would be Nani, who is of a similar age and financial investment. He's also had his ups and downs but has put in a far higher proportion of good performances than Anderson, out of all the games they both started these last 2 or 3 years.
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The comparison with Nani is good because they were both immensely talented when signed, Anderson was actually quite significantly ahead in his first season. IMO the fact that we've developed Nani so successfully indicates that Anderson has the potential to do the same... But for injuries. If he hadn't been so injury prone we'd have a completely different player by now. It would be a waste for us to sell him, only for him to overcome his injury problems and kick on with a different club.

It's becoming a bit if a cliche with Anderson but I think he deserves just one more year, but if he ends of missing large parts of the season again, then it's time to get rid.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
He's had more than most. Which is why people are losing patience with him. The comparison with Cleverley is unfair as he cost nothing and has barely had a third of the season to prove he has what it takes for the first team.
A better comparison would be Nani, who is of a similar age and financial investment. He's also had his ups and downs but has put in a far higher proportion of good performances than Anderson, out of all the games they both started these last 2 or 3 years.
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precisely...

Talk to us again in 5 years about Cleverly.

Looking at it another way, if you were to put Anderson on the Market for a free transfer, who would come to take him?

I seriously doubt the managers of any of the top clubs in Europe would be interested in him, even for free. In fact id put serious money on it, other than city just to annoy us.

Sure look at Gibson, there was many people in this forum defending him and saying he was one for the future and one with great "potential".
where is he now? At Everton floating in and out of the team for whatever reason.

If Anderson has to leave to accomodate a better player then so be it.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
He's had more than most. Which is why people are losing patience with him. The comparison with Cleverley is unfair as he cost nothing and has barely had a third of the season to prove he has what it takes for the first team.

A better comparison would be Nani, who is of a similar age and financial investment. He's also had his ups and downs but has put in a far higher proportion of good performances than Anderson, out of all the games they both started these last 2 or 3 years.
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The impression of Anderson as a player is extremely tainted by peoes fraustrations over his fitness. Just go back to his thread and see what people say about him during his spells of fitness, it's mostly all positive. His penetrative play, strength at holding the ball up, his quick short passing game, it's all stuff our midfield is lacking and it's fawned over when he is fit and doing it, then he gets injured and people start calling him fat and lazy and start talking about him as if he is Darron Gibson. It's bollocks to be fair, I can remember a few of his bad games, just like I can remember a few of Nani's. The difference is that we don't have months to dwell on Nani's games because he comes back and puts in a better performance and it's forgotten.

I really hope he can stay fit next season because we play better football with him in the team and only if he stays fit can that be proven. If he can't stay for then I agree, call time on him.

Cina said:
Pogue, don't even bother with Pexbo, seriously.
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It's not my fault you constantly miss the point and need it explaining to you 3 different ways before it sinks in, by which time you have your head so far up your own arse you refuse to actually discuss the points I am making and start using personal insults and avoiding the subject but whatever. I think you'll find there were others in the thread who had no trouble grasping the points I was making and agreed that what I was saying was probably the route Ferguson was taking.
 
Nah I completely understood the points because English is my first language and I can read, I just thought they were all a load of nonsense, that's all.
 
McGrathsipan said:
precisely...

Talk to us again in 5 years about Cleverly.

Looking at it another way, if you were to put Anderson on the Market for a free transfer, who would come to take him?

I seriously doubt the managers of any of the top clubs in Europe would be interested in him, even for free. In fact id put serious money on it, other than city just to annoy us.

Sure look at Gibson, there was many people in this forum defending him and saying he was one for the future and one with great "potential".
where is he now? At Everton floating in and out of the team for whatever reason.

If Anderson has to leave to accomodate a better player then so be it.
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You want us to compare Cleverley when he is 27? You don't think it means anything that Ferguson had Anderson in as an 18 year old and Cleverley on loan in the Championship at Watford? If you think that was down to our investment in Anderson then why should he be given less time to develop than Cleverley just because he has a transfer fee to "live up to"? It's fine for Cleverley to be a late developer but not Anderson? That's bollocks.

As far as I am concerned one is just 24, one is nearly 23 and they both show a lot of promise despite both having appalling injury record and should be given time to develop. For the record, Cleverley has missed more games for his relative teams than Anderson has in the last 5 years with 3 major injuries which cut 2 of his loans short.

It's also worth noting that a large section of Barcelona fans and media wanted Xavi out when he was in his early 20's because they felt he wasnt up to it and they wanted a midfielder in to replace him. I'm not saying Anderson has the same potential, I'm simply saying that sometimes a little patience goes a long way.
 
Pexbo said:
The impression of Anderson as a player is extremely tainted by peoes fraustrations over his fitness. Just go back to his thread and see what people say about him during his spells of fitness, it's mostly all positive. His penetrative play, strength at holding the ball up, his quick short passing game, it's all stuff our midfield is lacking and it's fawned over when he is fit and doing it, then he gets injured and people start calling him fat and lazy and start talking about him as if he is Darron Gibson. It's bollocks to be fair, I can remember a few of his bad games, just like I can remember a few of Nani's. The difference is that we don't have months to dwell on Nani's games because he comes back and puts in a better performance and it's forgotten.

I really hope he can stay fit next season because we play better football with him in the team and only if he stays fit can that be proven. If he can't stay for then I agree, call time on him.
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That's just not true. He's more than capable of going through longish slumps in form without being injured. In fact, he often seems to get injured after playing poorly for a run of games - which is why people tend to have a very low opinion of him throughout his rehab.

That contrasts with someone like Cleverley who was playing well right up until he got injured, hence his reputation seemed to grow and grow without him kicking a ball.

Obviously, both opinions are a little wide of the mark. Anderson's not as poor as you'd think reading comments from when he was out injured and Cleverley was never the Messiah (just a very naughty boy) Nonetheless, you're kidding yourself if you think that Anderson has been no more inconsistent than the other young players in our squad and his only problem has been recurrent injuries.
 
Yeah, I'm not really sure where you're getting the notion that he usually plays well when fit because that simply isn't the case. Yes, he started out the season very well for us, but he also slowly began to get worse and worse as the games went along until he finally got hurt. This is basically the pattern of his entire career with us thus far. When he plays well his talent is obvious to anyone, but him playing well simply doesn't occur often enough whether it be because of injury or inconsistency.
 
Cina said:
Nah I completely understood the points because English is my first language and I can read, I just thought they were all a load of nonsense, that's all.
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So it's nonsense that we have 9 players who can play in a midfield 2 (in some cases) or 3 (in other cases) in a 25 man squad and you want to buy another. It's also been pointed out to you that Ferguson is quite clearly of the same opinion.

Whereas I think we need luck with injuries, you want to go all muppet and keep up with Chelsea and City in the transfer stakes. I think you should stick to Football Manager personally because that's not how it works in the real world when you have a squad of players you have already invested heavily in, in terms of both time and money.
 
Pexbo said:
So it's nonsense that we have 9 players who can play in a midfield 2 (in some cases) or 3 (in other cases) in a 25 man squad and you want to buy another. It's also been pointed out to you that Ferguson is quite clearly of the same opinion.

Whereas I think we need luck with injuries, you want to go all muppet and keep up with Chelsea and City in the transfer stakes. I think you should stick to Football Manager personally because that's not how it works in the real world when you have a squad of players you have already invested heavily in, in terms of both time and money.
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Please name those nine players again.

<insert generic Football Manager insult when someone suggests we should buy players>
 
gza the genius said:
Yeah, I'm not really sure where you're getting the notion that he usually plays well when fit because that simply isn't the case. Yes, he started out the season very well for us, but he also slowly began to get worse and worse as the games went along until he finally got hurt. This is basically the pattern of his entire career with us thus far. When he plays well his talent is obvious to anyone, but him playing well simply doesn't occur often enough whether it be because of injury or inconsistency.
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Here come the myths.

His last game in that spell was against Otel which we won 2-0 and he was in midfield with Rooney, not a vintage performance but he had the defensive responsibility.

His last league game was City where we were down to 10 men and our defends imploded, Anderson was brought off for a defender in Jones.

Before that he scored in the Norwich game and was the second highest passer, the stoke game he created the most chances and had second most passes with the highest percentage and most attacking third passes and percentage.

Then we get to the spell people fawn over, 3-1 against Chelsea, 5-0 Bolton, 8-2 Arsenal, 3-0 Tottenham ect ect.

So yeah, revisionism of history and all that.
 
Pexbo said:
Here come the myths.

His last game in that spell was against Otel which we won 2-0 and he was in midfield with Rooney, not a vintage performance but he had the defensive responsibility.

His last league game was City where we were down to 10 men and our defends imploded, Anderson was brought off for a defender in Jones.

Before that he scored in the Norwich game and was the second highest passer, the stoke game he created the most chances and had second most passes with the highest percentage and most attacking third passes and percentage.

Then we get to the spell people fawn over, 3-1 against Chelsea, 5-0 Bolton, 8-2 Arsenal, 3-0 Tottenham ect ect.

So yeah, revisionism of history and all that.
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Chelsea went through our midfield like knife through butter, Arsenal didn't have a midfield, Tottenham's midfield was Livermore and Krancjar and we struggled until the first goal, Bolton were dire.

There's always two sides to every story, eh.
 
Pexbo said:
Here come the myths.

His last game in that spell was against Otel which we won 2-0 and he was in midfield with Rooney, not a vintage performance but he had the defensive responsibility.

His last league game was City where we were down to 10 men and our defends imploded, Anderson was brought off for a defender in Jones.

Before that he scored in the Norwich game and was the second highest passer, the stoke game he created the most chances and had second most passes with the highest percentage and most attacking third passes and percentage.

Then we get to the spell people fawn over, 3-1 against Chelsea, 5-0 Bolton, 8-2 Arsenal, 3-0 Tottenham ect ect.

So yeah, revisionism of history and all that.
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I was at that game. He was fecking pants.

Only saw the other games you mentioned on telly but thought he was generally poor in those games too. Not to mention the European games during the early part of the season, where he played his part in some really shoddy team performances.

Basically, in the early part of the season he had as many (probably more) bad performances as good ones. So whatever revisionism is happening here most likely comes from people portraying him as having generally played well and unfairly criticised when he ended up injured.
 
To be fair to Ando, I'm pretty sure during matches he started last year he attempted and completed the most passes in all of those games. I remember the stat folk going crazy over his 'chalkboards'.

We'll see. If he comes into preseason looking slim and fit than I think people will be willing to give him a chance, if he comes in looking overweight and sloppy than probably not. That's if he's there at all, of course.

The problem is the lack of options. We've all seen Ando perform at the highest level in our league - not something we can see for anyone else we're looking at (Witsel, Strootman, Moura etc etc)
 
I don't really care about his stats in those games, nor do I care about how the team did. I'm not revising anything as I said the same thing at the time as well. I guess we just disagree because I quite clearly remember his form getting worse as his time in the team went on until he finally got injured, if you think he was good in all of those games I don't think we'll come to an agreement. For all the positives of Anderson's game, consistency is not one of them which is definitely not helped by his inability to stay fit ever.

So if Anderson goes through the same injury woes next season would you think he needs let go? At that point he'll still only be 24, very young for a footballer. At some point you just need to cut your losses. Personally I have absolutely no faith in Anderson and don't think he should be counted on at all, I hope he proves me wrong.
 
Just looking at his history this season, this is basically what I remember, and from looking at ratings and such on other websites

From games he started

City - good
West Brom - good
Tottenham - great
Arsenal - great
Bolton - great
Chelsea - shit
Stoke - decent
Basel(H) - shit
Norwich - shit (got a goal)
Otelul(A) - decent
City - shit
Otelul(H) - decent
Blackburn - shit

so he had a few good/great games at the start, was rubbish against Chelsea (our first properly difficult PL fixture), remained a bit shit, was decent against a crap CL side, was rubbish against City (our next difficult fixture), and generally rubbish after that.

Looks like 'worse to worse' to me anyway.
 
Cina said:
He was rubbish against Chelsea, subbed off I believe
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Just after, I think.

Looking back at the stats from that game he completed 78% of his passes compared to Fletcher's 92%. Which is pretty fecking poor for a CM. And that's getting talked about as one of his good games!

EDIT: just checked Stoke game and Fletcher out-passed him again. More passes, more accurately. Wasn't that the last game before Fletch finally gave in to his UC? Speaks volumes, if so.
 
gza the genius said:
So if Anderson goes through the same injury woes next season would you think he needs let go? At that point he'll still only be 24, very young for a footballer. At some point you just need to cut your losses. Personally I have absolutely no faith in Anderson and don't think he should be counted on at all, I hope he proves me wrong.
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Maybe, I just think he's worth giving the benefit of the doubt to for this season anyway, rather than spending £25m+ on someone who could just as easily get injured.

This year we have 5 players capable of playing in a midfield 2 in Scholes, Carrick, Cleverley and Anderson and then Jones who has to be considered as Ferguson played him there at times last season and no doubt will again.

4 more capable of playing in a midfield 3 in Kagawa, Powell, Giggs and Park. You might not like the idea of Giggs or Park and neither do I but again, as far as Ferguson is concerned they are so they have to be considered.


If Giggs and/or Scholes retired this year I'd have someone in like a shot but with the players we have it's difficult to accommodate another.

Next season, they will be gone and we will have someone in. It's the perfect year to see if Cleverley and Anderson will make the step up as far as I am concerned because we have the options available.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Just after, I think.

Looking back at the stats from that game he completed 78% of his passes compared to Fletcher's 92%. Which is pretty fecking poor for a CM. And that's getting talked about as one of his good games!

EDIT: just checked Stoke game and Fletcher out-passed him again. More passes, more accurately. Wasn't that the last game before Fletch finally gave in to his UC? Speaks volumes, if so.
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Amazingly not, he actually played quite a few games after that. His last was against Benfica on Nov 22nd. Scored a goal too actually.

http://www.whoscored.com/Players/5835/Show/Darren-Fletcher
 
Pexbo said:
Next season, they will be gone and we will have someone in. It's the perfect year to see if Cleverley and Anderson will make the step up as far as I am concerned because we have the options available.
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I agree with most of your post, but I just feel at the worst bringing in another midfielder should be at the expense of Giggs/Scholes/Park. If Cleverley and Anderson stay fit then they will play, if not then we will have someone capable of taking over their responsibilities who isn't 37/38. I think this season would be the perfect time to slowly phase them out, rather than rely on them this year and then completely get rid next. You said yourself that when Giggs/Scholes leave we'll need to bring someone else in anyway so why not just do it now?
 
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